TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

You have the mic now, so speak...

"George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?"

Defend your doctrine. Answer the question. We're listening.

You always seem to think you are more than one person? And I have seen no evidence of his "legalism"? If you have it? Post it. And please post a reference to your source.

I see 14 users in this thread right now. I already produced the evidence of Mueller 'looking to the law and doing it' with reference. Now,please, stop stalling and and answer the question:

"George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?"

Give the source of this statement, so it can be looked at in the truth? Are you afraid of the light of truth? I am not.

 

[Elijah674]

But it is always the legalistic groups that are "ungodly" just as the scriptures describe;

ALWAYS ???? Huh no. That is an exaggeration. Is an exaggeration, in this context a lie? Or just a wives tail? Or an unsound argument?

well the strength of sin is the law, a legalist will always be full of sinful lust and desires, even thou they attempt to cover it in religious fig leaves, just as the Pharisees did. Only grace delivers from sin and sins power, NOTHING ELSE! Yes ALWAYS is the correct word!

NOTHING ELSE??

1 John 5
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[14] And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[15] And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. [[There is a sin unto death:]] I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is [[begotten of God keepeth himself,]] and that wicked one toucheth him not.

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

But it is always the legalistic groups that are "ungodly" just as the scriptures describe;

ALWAYS ???? Huh no. That is an exaggeration. Is an exaggeration, in this context a lie? Or just a wives tail? Or an unsound argument?

well the strength of sin is the law, a legalist will always be full of sinful lust and desires, even thou they attempt to cover it in religious fig leaves, just as the Pharisees did. Only grace delivers from sin and sins power, NOTHING ELSE! Yes ALWAYS is the correct word!

But that is not what you said. "But it is always the legalistic groups that are "ungodly" just as the scriptures describe;

My old AoG churches (3 different ones, in different towns) were not filled with ungodly people! In fact, they were some of the most Godly people, who loved the Lord. Obeyed His commandments to love, with joyful hearts. They were always there with a helping hand, givers. They were not backbiters and critic of others.

 

[George Muller]

But it is always the legalistic groups that are "ungodly" just as the scriptures describe;

ALWAYS ???? Huh no. That is an exaggeration. Is an exaggeration, in this context a lie? Or just a wives tail? Or an unsound argument?

well the strength of sin is the law, a legalist will always be full of sinful lust and desires, even thou they attempt to cover it in religious fig leaves, just as the Pharisees did. Only grace delivers from sin and sins power, NOTHING ELSE! Yes ALWAYS is the correct word!

But that is not what you said. "But it is always the legalistic groups that are "ungodly" just as the scriptures describe;

My old AoG churches (3 different ones, in different towns) were not filled with ungodly people! In fact, they were some of the most Godly people, who loved the Lord. Obeyed His commandments to love, with joyful hearts. They were always there with a helping hand, givers. They were not backbiters and critic of others.

Well "love" is not legalism it is obedience to the Spirit and not to the letter. Do you not understand this point that Paul made over and over? "the letter kills" legalism kills, but love and the Spirit give life. And most "Christians" are stuck in the mixture of law and grace, not understanding this very issue. I do not steal, because "love" is the fulfillment of all the laws of God. This love does not proceed from the "written code" of the law of Moses, it proceeds and flows based on Gods UNCONDITIONAL love for me, which is shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit. If is does not come from the Holy Spirit it is not the true love of God.

 

[George Muller]

But it is always the legalistic groups that are "ungodly" just as the scriptures describe;

ALWAYS ???? Huh no. That is an exaggeration. Is an exaggeration, in this context a lie? Or just a wives tail? Or an unsound argument?

well the strength of sin is the law, a legalist will always be full of sinful lust and desires, even thou they attempt to cover it in religious fig leaves, just as the Pharisees did. Only grace delivers from sin and sins power, NOTHING ELSE! Yes ALWAYS is the correct word!

NOTHING ELSE??

1 John 5
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[14] And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[15] And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. [[There is a sin unto death:]] I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is [[begotten of God keepeth himself,]] and that wicked one toucheth him not.

--Elijah

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

 

[jasoncran]

like I said why does the new grace type posters bother with the word. if jesus did it all and you DONT have to ask him or allow the blood to change you from glory to glory. then why read the bible?

I know many a grace and eternals security types that preach what jethro Is teaching. james McDonald is one of them.if you love me keep my commandments. ok if we don't have to keep them by his power then why did he ask for proof that we do love him?

we know that our spouses wouldn't tolerate any man or woman who said I love when, and didn't do anything :
1) I need help with moving this couch
2) I need help when the rapist is trying to harm me
3) I need money for the kids so they can have clothes.

simply put we claim to love God now. he says show me when you do as I SAY. I say love one another. tell the world about me. I say pray and be like me.

he isn't saying be perfect here , just that we should look to him and ask him when he does show us where we fail to strive in his power to be like him.

 

[Elijah674]

well the strength of sin is the law, a legalist will always be full of sinful lust and desires, even thou they attempt to cover it in religious fig leaves, just as the Pharisees did. Only grace delivers from sin and sins power, NOTHING ELSE! Yes ALWAYS is the correct word!

NOTHING ELSE??

1 John 5
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[14] And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[15] And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. [[There is a sin unto death:]] I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is [[begotten of God keepeth himself,]] and that wicked one toucheth him not.

--Elijah

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

Elijah here: You read right over verse 16. :naughty

--Elijah

 

[Guest]

he isn't saying be perfect here , just that we should look to him and ask him when he does show us where we fail to strive in his power to be like him.

Well said.

 

[Deborah13]

Well "love" is not legalism it is obedience to the Spirit and not to the letter. Do you not understand this point that Paul made over and over? "the letter kills" legalism kills, but love and the Spirit give life. And most "Christians" are stuck in the mixture of law and grace, not understanding this very issue. I do not steal, because "love" is the fulfillment of all the laws of God. This love does not proceed from the "written code" of the law of Moses, it proceeds and flows based on Gods UNCONDITIONAL love for me, which is shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit. If is does not come from the Holy Spirit it is not the true love of God.

Wow, finally you have made a full statement that I can totally agree with.

And that is good preaching, in the Spirit of grace.

 

[Elijah674]

he isn't saying be perfect here , just that we should look to him and ask him when he does show us where we fail to strive in his power to be like him.

Well said.

Very well said! 1 John 5:16
--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

But what does that have to do with 'nothing else' in post #185?? Those IN Christ have NO Condemnation IF they are LED of the Holy Spirit! Rom. 8:1 + Rom. 8:14

-- Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Originally Posted by George Muller
Well "love" is not legalism [[it is obedience]] to the Spirit and not to the letter. Do you not understand this point that Paul made over and over? "the letter kills" legalism kills, but love and the Spirit give life. And most "Christians" are stuck in the mixture of law and grace, not understanding this very issue. I do not steal, because "love" is the fulfillment of all the laws of God. This love does not proceed from the "written code" of the law of Moses, it proceeds and flows based on Gods UNCONDITIONAL love for me, which is shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit. If is does not come from the Holy Spirit it is not the true love of God.

My added highlights G.W. --Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

Elijah here: You read right over verse 16.

What is that sin unto death?

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah here: You read right over verse 16.

What is that sin unto death?

It is the Psalms 19:13 one (of presumption) that is done over & over again until the Striving of the Holy Spirit can no longer reach them. Such as this very false teaching that you are reading about. How old is this teaching!? I doubt that when one knows that it is false, that there is any hope left!
Case in point is that of being a liar. It grows & grows to the point of not being able to be reached. See Gen. 6:3 for the Lords Spirit being rejected for over 120 yrs. with only 8 saved ones.

--Elijah

 

[George Muller]

Well "love" is not legalism it is obedience to the Spirit and not to the letter. Do you not understand this point that Paul made over and over? "the letter kills" legalism kills, but love and the Spirit give life. And most "Christians" are stuck in the mixture of law and grace, not understanding this very issue. I do not steal, because "love" is the fulfillment of all the laws of God. This love does not proceed from the "written code" of the law of Moses, it proceeds and flows based on Gods UNCONDITIONAL love for me, which is shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit. If is does not come from the Holy Spirit it is not the true love of God.

Wow, finally you have made a full statement that I can totally agree with.

And that is good preaching, in the Spirit of grace.

Thank you Deb, glad we can come to a point of agreement, but this is what I have been saying all alone. That "holiness" is not found in the physical realm of man or in mans ability. It is the Spirit of God upon and working in and through the believer. "Love" is not willy nilly it is Gods order and His heavenly nature. Consider that all the laws of God are fulfilled in love? "LOVE is the law and works as a law to govern Gods People. But it is not in keeping the written code, for that is a work of the flesh. It is Gods Love shed abroad in our hearts, and we in turn love others based upon that love. Now God rebukes and corrects those He loves, but He NEVER UNSAVES OR CONDEMNS those who trust in His Mercy. Those who have and know Gods Love and have yielded to its order, have the authority from God to correct according to love. Those who do not have this love, and have not submitted to its order, have no authority to correct other believers.

 

[George Muller]

well the strength of sin is the law, a legalist will always be full of sinful lust and desires, even thou they attempt to cover it in religious fig leaves, just as the Pharisees did. Only grace delivers from sin and sins power, NOTHING ELSE! Yes ALWAYS is the correct word!

NOTHING ELSE??

1 John 5
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[14] And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[15] And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. [[There is a sin unto death:]] I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is [[begotten of God keepeth himself,]] and that wicked one toucheth him not.

--Elijah

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

Elijah here: You read right over verse 16. :naughty

--Elijah

The only biblical sin unto death is described by Paul as "being cut-off from Christ" "falling from grace" So you only condemn yourself. I cannot pray for you to have life in your rejection of life.

 

[JLB]

he only biblical sin unto death is described by Paul as "being cut-off from Christ"

Really?

Please show us the scripture that states that the only sin unto death is being "cut off from Christ".

I know you are a person that doesn't like to go beyond what the scriptures say, so I would like to see this scripture.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

"holiness" is not found in the physical realm of man or in mans ability. It is the Spirit of God upon and working in and through the believer. "Love" is not willy nilly it is Gods order and His heavenly nature. Consider that all the laws of God are fulfilled in love? "LOVE is the law and works as a law to govern Gods People. But it is not in keeping the written code, for that is a work of the flesh. It is Gods Love shed abroad in our hearts, and we in turn love others based upon that love. Now God rebukes and corrects those He loves, but He NEVER UNSAVES OR CONDEMNS those who trust in His Mercy. Those who have and know Gods Love and have yielded to its order, have the authority from God to correct according to love. Those who do not have this love, and have not submitted to its order, have no authority to correct other believers.

I think we can't always know what is in one's heart. Sometimes we just can't put it into words just exactly what we mean, so that it is clear enough to speak to another's heart and spirit. But walking in God's love is always walking in His Spirit.

 

[Deborah13]

he isn't saying be perfect here , just that we should look to him and ask him when he does show us where we fail to strive in his power to be like him.

Being conformed to His image, by His Spirit, is what I hear you saying.

By His grace and mercy, it shall be so.

 

[George Muller]

"holiness" is not found in the physical realm of man or in mans ability. It is the Spirit of God upon and working in and through the believer. "Love" is not willy nilly it is Gods order and His heavenly nature. Consider that all the laws of God are fulfilled in love? "LOVE is the law and works as a law to govern Gods People. But it is not in keeping the written code, for that is a work of the flesh. It is Gods Love shed abroad in our hearts, and we in turn love others based upon that love. Now God rebukes and corrects those He loves, but He NEVER UNSAVES OR CONDEMNS those who trust in His Mercy. Those who have and know Gods Love and have yielded to its order, have the authority from God to correct according to love. Those who do not have this love, and have not submitted to its order, have no authority to correct other believers.

I think we can't always know what is in one's heart. Sometimes we just can't put it into words just exactly what we mean, so that it is clear enough to speak to another's heart and spirit. But walking in God's love is always walking in His Spirit.

I agree, but love does correct, just as one corrects their children. Knowing Gods love one can correct those who are not walking according to His love and His Spirit. The point being that those in the flesh cannot be walking in true love, religion can appear to have a love based upon the flesh, a shallow love based upon mans ability. Agape is supernatural and it is according to Gods Divine Order. Thus we have the Apostles in Gods love, correcting the church unto the order of love. Paul, in Gods perfect love, turned some over to satan to bring judgment against the flesh that they where walking in. He told those who where turning from grace back to law, you are cut-off from Christ, you are fallen from grace. Love is order, and those who know Gods love and order are those God calls to correct other believers. And those He gives authority He also gives power. If a so-called man of God does not have spiritual power, he does not have Gods authority.