TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

"He also eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller


Now that your memory is refreshed, please answer my question:

George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?

No where in this article does it claim that "he looked to the law of Moses" but it does show that he obeyed the "law written upon the heart" love and grace was his ways and this is why I admire him.

Noboby is arguing that George Muller obeyed because of the Holy Spirit at work in him. The point is, he realized what the law required and did it. But you insist that equates to damnable legalism. So, either you stick with that argument and admit George Muller was a legalist serving the flesh, or acknowledge that God speaks 'spiritually' through his written word to lead us to the obedience of the Spirit.

Which will it be?


"27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:27 NASB)

Again you make no point, and of course the OLD TESTAMENT law will point to the "law". You have given no evidence that Muller was a legalist, in fact the evidence points to the "law written upon his heart" as he walked in faith and love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This fringe 'holy roller' doctrine doesn't understand that God's voice can inhabit his written law and move someone to obey him out of love, and that is just as 'spiritual'

So when Paul says "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life" he is in error? You seem to be unable to understand the difference? To be under the written code (legalism) is death, to be set free from the law and walk in the Spirit is life and peace. Justified by faith not by keeping the 10 Commandments or any part of the law, but by faith in Christ. His commandment is to love as He loves us. Faith working by love is the only thing that profits, legalism is just death to all.

How is upholding the law by faith in Christ legalism?

Ah, I see now. Because I come from the charismatic movement I see that 'faith in Christ' is understood as a lofty, hyper-spiritual concept by some in the charismatic movement. But all it is is simply believing and trusting in the forgiveness of God and being declared righteous that way, not some lofty spiritual experience. Charismatics are taught that 'having faith' is a spiritual experience, you know power, miracles, etc. Not knowing 'having faith' in regard to righteousness is simply trusting God for a declaration of righteousness instead of reliance on works of rightoeusness for a declaration of righteousness.

Somehow their are those in the church that think not relying on the law for a declaration of righteousness, and the end of the law for that purpose, means we no longer have to know what the law says is righteous behavior. And that all our obedience comes from spiritual signals and experiences that move our bodies in the right direction. And that anything less than that is damnable works righteousness. How misguided. How arrogant.

 

[Deborah13]

Through that same letter, James also corrected the real George Muller centuries later when Muller realized through that passage that they were sinning by showing favoritism to the rich in his congregation. We can be sure that the real George Muller responded in the Spirit of grace

I think that the Mr. Muller, in Germany, must have been firmly planted in his understanding of grace as he did this. But the truth is that he didn't need to do that. The law is written on our hearts and minds. Now please keep reading, I'll try to explain.

Mr. Muller, being a Christian would have known, once he thought about it and prayed, he would have known, in his heart. It's really simple. If you were the poor guy on sitting in the back, with all the rich sitting in front of you, what would you think. I think I would think several things. What makes them better than me? I'm kinder to others than they are? I've seen the way.... Or believing that the arrangement was actually from God would tell me that God must love them more than me.
On the other hand, the rich would have their own boasting to do and their understanding of God's love towards all His children would be incorrect.
Many more thoughts could be added to these. Actually lies.

Being the man that I read he was, I think that he would have known this, if he had thought about it. Now I don't know how the Lord had already been dealing with him about this, or even if He had. It could be that when Mr. Muller was reading the OT that the Lord pointed it out to Him as a revelation teaching. But if he had read James, he certainly would have been lead to search the scriptures to see if what James said was in the Law of Moses.

We also know that Mr. Muller, especially living in Germany, would have been familiar with Martin Luther's first objection to the RCC, the indulgences provide to the rich. So I'm not sure we have the full story of just how Mr. Muller was convicted about their sitting arrangements.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"He also eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller


Now that your memory is refreshed, please answer my question:

George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?

No where in this article does it claim that "he looked to the law of Moses" but it does show that he obeyed the "law written upon the heart" love and grace was his ways and this is why I admire him.

Noboby is arguing that George Muller obeyed because of the Holy Spirit at work in him. The point is, he realized what the law required and did it. But you insist that equates to damnable legalism. So, either you stick with that argument and admit George Muller was a legalist serving the flesh, or acknowledge that God speaks 'spiritually' through his written word to lead us to the obedience of the Spirit.

Which will it be?


"27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:27 NASB)

Again you make no point, and of course the OLD TESTAMENT law will point to the "law". You have given no evidence that Muller was a legalist, in fact the evidence points to the "law written upon his heart" as he walked in faith and love.

You know the Bible(?). That is a prophecy about the New Covenant. Jeremiah said the same thing:

"31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it" (Jeremiah 31:31-33 NASB)


Paul, speaking of this New Covenant, plainly said faith in Christ for a declaration of righteousness upholds the law, not nullifies it:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)

 

[George Muller]

Through that same letter, James also corrected the real George Muller centuries later when Muller realized through that passage that they were sinning by showing favoritism to the rich in his congregation. We can be sure that the real George Muller responded in the Spirit of grace

I think that the Mr. Muller, in Germany, must have been firmly planted in his understanding of grace as he did this. But the truth is that he didn't need to do that. The law is written on our hearts and minds. Now please keep reading, I'll try to explain.

Mr. Muller, being a Christian would have known, once he thought about it and prayed, he would have known, in his heart. It's really simple. If you were the poor guy on sitting in the back, with all the rich sitting in front of you, what would you think. I think I would think several things. What makes them better than me? I'm kinder to others than they are? I've seen the way.... Or believing that the arrangement was actually from God would tell me that God must love them more than me.
On the other hand, the rich would have their own boasting to do and their understanding of God's love towards all His children would be incorrect.
Many more thoughts could be added to these. Actually lies.

Being the man that I read he was, I think that he would have known this, if he had thought about it. Now I don't know how the Lord had already been dealing with him about this, or even if He had. It could be that when Mr. Muller was reading the OT that the Lord pointed it out to Him as a revelation teaching. But if he had read James, he certainly would have been lead to search the scriptures to see if what James said was in the Law of Moses.

We also know that Mr. Muller, especially living in Germany, would have been familiar with Martin Luther's first objection to the RCC, the indulgences provide to the rich. So I'm not sure we have the full story of just how Mr. Muller was convicted about their sitting arrangements.

Thank you Deb, just as we all are to obey from the heart the truth of God. The Word judges the thoughts and intentions of our heart, and it is from the heart we obey the will of the Spirit. All obedience is from the heart, not in the written code. Faith working by love is the obedience of the New Covenant.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It could be that when Mr. Muller was reading the OT that the Lord pointed it out to Him as a revelation teaching.

Tell that to (fake) George Muller. It's really quite simple and doesn't have to be as miraculous and supernatural as the church has been taught it has to be. Having the law written on your heart means your sensitivities to it have been heightened.

But if he had read James, he certainly would have been lead to search the scriptures to see if what James said was in the Law of Moses.

We also know that Mr. Muller, especially living in Germany, would have been familiar with Martin Luther's first objection to the RCC, the indulgences provide to the rich. So I'm not sure we have the full story of just how Mr. Muller was convicted about their sitting arrangements.

Don't rationalize the truth away. James 2 teaches the law to the body of Christ so they can be careful to fulfill the law of love (also found in the law!).

The church's indoctrination about law has them so resistant to any value in the law that they don't believe it possible to read the law, and then do it, and not be thought of as a legalist working in his own efforts to be declared righteous before God. It's a fundamental ignorance of Paul's teaching. Made worse by this misguided understanding of what 'spiritual' is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Through that same letter, James also corrected the real George Muller centuries later when Muller realized through that passage that they were sinning by showing favoritism to the rich in his congregation. We can be sure that the real George Muller responded in the Spirit of grace

I think that the Mr. Muller, in Germany, must have been firmly planted in his understanding of grace as he did this. But the truth is that he didn't need to do that. The law is written on our hearts and minds. Now please keep reading, I'll try to explain.

Mr. Muller, being a Christian would have known, once he thought about it and prayed, he would have known, in his heart. It's really simple. If you were the poor guy on sitting in the back, with all the rich sitting in front of you, what would you think. I think I would think several things. What makes them better than me? I'm kinder to others than they are? I've seen the way.... Or believing that the arrangement was actually from God would tell me that God must love them more than me.
On the other hand, the rich would have their own boasting to do and their understanding of God's love towards all His children would be incorrect.
Many more thoughts could be added to these. Actually lies.

Being the man that I read he was, I think that he would have known this, if he had thought about it. Now I don't know how the Lord had already been dealing with him about this, or even if He had. It could be that when Mr. Muller was reading the OT that the Lord pointed it out to Him as a revelation teaching. But if he had read James, he certainly would have been lead to search the scriptures to see if what James said was in the Law of Moses.

We also know that Mr. Muller, especially living in Germany, would have been familiar with Martin Luther's first objection to the RCC, the indulgences provide to the rich. So I'm not sure we have the full story of just how Mr. Muller was convicted about their sitting arrangements.

Thank you Deb, just as we all are to obey from the heart the truth of God. The Word judges the thoughts and intentions of our heart, and it is from the heart we obey the will of the Spirit. All obedience is from the heart, not in the written code. Faith working by love is the obedience of the New Covenant.

We all know this is true, but the issue is why is the NT chock full of specific written guidance to the churches if we all just know by the Spirit what we're supposed to do?

I'm amused and irritated all at the same time by these ridiculous teachings about the law in the church today.

The problem is, walking by the Spirit does not mean you don't know or care what the law says to do. It means you rely on the ministry of the Spirit in our lives to do what God requires.

 

[George Muller]

How is upholding the law by faith in Christ legalism?

You seem to use words that you have no understanding of? "the law is not of faith" We "uphold" the true standard of the law, in that we admit that Only Christ can justify us. That we are not able to justify ourselves by keeping the law. This is the purpose of the law "to make ALL GUILTY BEFORE GOD" that ALL would come to Christ to be justified by Christ in Gods Righteousness. Mans righteousness, by law, is "DUNG"

 

[George Muller]

Through that same letter, James also corrected the real George Muller centuries later when Muller realized through that passage that they were sinning by showing favoritism to the rich in his congregation. We can be sure that the real George Muller responded in the Spirit of grace

I think that the Mr. Muller, in Germany, must have been firmly planted in his understanding of grace as he did this. But the truth is that he didn't need to do that. The law is written on our hearts and minds. Now please keep reading, I'll try to explain.

Mr. Muller, being a Christian would have known, once he thought about it and prayed, he would have known, in his heart. It's really simple. If you were the poor guy on sitting in the back, with all the rich sitting in front of you, what would you think. I think I would think several things. What makes them better than me? I'm kinder to others than they are? I've seen the way.... Or believing that the arrangement was actually from God would tell me that God must love them more than me.
On the other hand, the rich would have their own boasting to do and their understanding of God's love towards all His children would be incorrect.
Many more thoughts could be added to these. Actually lies.

Being the man that I read he was, I think that he would have known this, if he had thought about it. Now I don't know how the Lord had already been dealing with him about this, or even if He had. It could be that when Mr. Muller was reading the OT that the Lord pointed it out to Him as a revelation teaching. But if he had read James, he certainly would have been lead to search the scriptures to see if what James said was in the Law of Moses.

We also know that Mr. Muller, especially living in Germany, would have been familiar with Martin Luther's first objection to the RCC, the indulgences provide to the rich. So I'm not sure we have the full story of just how Mr. Muller was convicted about their sitting arrangements.

Thank you Deb, just as we all are to obey from the heart the truth of God. The Word judges the thoughts and intentions of our heart, and it is from the heart we obey the will of the Spirit. All obedience is from the heart, not in the written code. Faith working by love is the obedience of the New Covenant.

We all know this is true, but the issue is why is the NT chock full of specific written guidance to the churches if we all just know by the Spirit what we're supposed to do?

That is a good honest question. The mind of each believer but must be "renewed" unto the "Image" and knowledge of Christ. Not all believers will surrender to the Spirit, but most remain in a "carnal" condition, just as Paul said "I could not speak to you as spiritual" but as to carnal. So much of the New Testament is written to give guidance to "carnal" believers. To in effect control them and bring them unto regeneration as they are able to have their minds renewed.

 

[Deborah13]

Possible, this is what John is speaking? But we all know many "Christians" that speak evil of the Holy Spirit, I warn them with strong words as all should. But I am not convinced this is what John is speaking of, more likely he is speaking to that which I posted.

So are you saying, that John is saying, that we should not pray for someone who as fallen from grace, to be restored?

Well to use your own logic, are you saying we should not pray for those who speak evil of the Holy Spirit? as many do? The issue is "life" and life is in the "Spirit". The "letter" - legalism is death.

I did not say that we shouldn't pray for those who say that some living now, are not operating in the Holy Spirit. The scripture I pointed out was very specific. It was Jesus, doing miracles and they were saying that He was doing them by the power of satan, not the Holy Spirit. Now most people I hear do not say such things. They say things like, those gifts aren't for today, that person is making that up, that wasn't really a miracle, that didn't really happen, etc, etc...
The Pharisees knew that Jesus was not a devil worshipper! And they knew that God did awesome miracles. They knew and had experienced the power and glory of the Holy Spirit. They only said what they said to discredit Him.
But obviously they went too far.

Now look at Hebrews 6. Those people had experienced that power, they knew, just like the Pharisees knew

 

[Jethro Bodine]

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

The same John who penned these verses also penned these just before that:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10 NASB)

You see, he wasn't teaching that truly saved, spiritual people don't sin. That's a joke. But this sinless perfection is the very attitude of the Pharisees. The attitude that some say people have who 'look to the law' and then seek to do what it says (i.e. don't show favoritism to the rich, etc.) not knowing they are actually the ones who are the Pharisees.

I've been waiting for the right place to confront this hypocritical attitude of the 'super spiritual' sects in the charismatic movement. They don't realize they are actually the one's with the attitude of the Pharisees in the church...thinking they are without sin, and high and above the less spiritual common man, pleasing God to the utmost with their special abilities and gifts.

That is exactly the attitude of the Pharisees. The only difference being, the modern day Pharisee measures his righteousness by his spiritual privileges and giftedness and spiritual obedience, while the Pharisee of Jesus' day measured it by their appointed positions and their keeping of the letter of the law. But both are guilty of the same thing--looking good on the outside, but not having the character of God on the inside, with lying hypocrisy being the telltale sign of what they are.


Mods, I know this is some pretty strong stuff, but I'm being careful to speak only to doctrines here. No finger pointing. No names named.

Not sure what point you "think" your making, of course John was teaching that "IN CHRIST" we have no sin and cannot sin. The conflict is in your mind because you do not understand what it means to be "IN CHRIST" - I COULD NOT SPEAK TO YOU AS SPIRITUAL BUT AS TO CARNAL AS A BABE IN CHRIST.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
(1 John 1:8, 0 NASB)

Plain as day.

These are the more compelling verses that force us to abandon your understanding of John's 'sinneth not' verses. It's impossible for John to say we don't sin when he just said we do. And calls the person who says they don't sin a liar. Like the Pharisees.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thank you Deb, just as we all are to obey from the heart the truth of God. The Word judges the thoughts and intentions of our heart, and it is from the heart we obey the will of the Spirit. All obedience is from the heart, not in the written code. Faith working by love is the obedience of the New Covenant.

We all know this is true, but the issue is why is the NT chock full of specific written guidance to the churches if we all just know by the Spirit what we're supposed to do?

That is a good honest question. The mind of each believer but must be "renewed" unto the "Image" and knowledge of Christ. Not all believers will surrender to the Spirit, but most remain in a "carnal" condition, just as Paul said "I could not speak to you as spiritual" but as to carnal. So much of the New Testament is written to give guidance to "carnal" believers. To in effect control them and bring them unto regeneration as they are able to have their minds renewed.

See? Just more 'holier-than-thou' condescension.

Paul hardly made this kind of boast. Are you saying Paul was a carnal babe in Christ?

Getting the picture now of how wrong this attitude is?

 

[George Muller]

Possible, this is what John is speaking? But we all know many "Christians" that speak evil of the Holy Spirit, I warn them with strong words as all should. But I am not convinced this is what John is speaking of, more likely he is speaking to that which I posted.

So are you saying, that John is saying, that we should not pray for someone who as fallen from grace, to be restored?

Well to use your own logic, are you saying we should not pray for those who speak evil of the Holy Spirit? as many do? The issue is "life" and life is in the "Spirit". The "letter" - legalism is death.

I did not say that we shouldn't pray for those who say that some living now, are not operating in the Holy Spirit. The scripture I pointed out was very specific. It was Jesus, doing miracles and they were saying that He was doing them by the power of satan, not the Holy Spirit. Now most people I hear do not say such things. They say things like, those gifts aren't for today, that person is making that up, that wasn't really a miracle, that didn't really happen, etc, etc...
The Pharisees knew that Jesus was not a devil worshipper! And they knew that God did awesome miracles. They knew and had experienced the power and glory of the Holy Spirit. They only said what they said to discredit Him.
Now look at Hebrews 6. Those people had experienced that power, they knew, just like the Pharisees knew.
But obviously they went too far.

We both know that many do in fact call the gifts of the Spirit, works of satan. Just trying to get you to judge your own point, as you seemed to judge my point? "life" is the issue of the prayer, and one who rejects the Holy Spirit in any form whether by "legalism" or "gifts" could be subject to this scripture.

 

[George Muller]

Thank you Deb, just as we all are to obey from the heart the truth of God. The Word judges the thoughts and intentions of our heart, and it is from the heart we obey the will of the Spirit. All obedience is from the heart, not in the written code. Faith working by love is the obedience of the New Covenant.

We all know this is true, but the issue is why is the NT chock full of specific written guidance to the churches if we all just know by the Spirit what we're supposed to do?

That is a good honest question. The mind of each believer but must be "renewed" unto the "Image" and knowledge of Christ. Not all believers will surrender to the Spirit, but most remain in a "carnal" condition, just as Paul said "I could not speak to you as spiritual" but as to carnal. So much of the New Testament is written to give guidance to "carnal" believers. To in effect control them and bring them unto regeneration as they are able to have their minds renewed.

See? Just more 'holier-than-thou' condescension.

Paul hardly made this kind of boast. Are you saying Paul was a carnal babe in Christ?

Getting the picture now of how wrong this attitude is?

What? I never in any way suggested Paul was carnal, but that He could not speak to all as "spiritual" I think you should reread my post?

 

[George Muller]

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

The same John who penned these verses also penned these just before that:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10 NASB)

You see, he wasn't teaching that truly saved, spiritual people don't sin. That's a joke. But this sinless perfection is the very attitude of the Pharisees. The attitude that some say people have who 'look to the law' and then seek to do what it says (i.e. don't show favoritism to the rich, etc.) not knowing they are actually the ones who are the Pharisees.

I've been waiting for the right place to confront this hypocritical attitude of the 'super spiritual' sects in the charismatic movement. They don't realize they are actually the one's with the attitude of the Pharisees in the church...thinking they are without sin, and high and above the less spiritual common man, pleasing God to the utmost with their special abilities and gifts.

That is exactly the attitude of the Pharisees. The only difference being, the modern day Pharisee measures his righteousness by his spiritual privileges and giftedness and spiritual obedience, while the Pharisee of Jesus' day measured it by their appointed positions and their keeping of the letter of the law. But both are guilty of the same thing--looking good on the outside, but not having the character of God on the inside, with lying hypocrisy being the telltale sign of what they are.


Mods, I know this is some pretty strong stuff, but I'm being careful to speak only to doctrines here. No finger pointing. No names named.

Not sure what point you "think" your making, of course John was teaching that "IN CHRIST" we have no sin and cannot sin. The conflict is in your mind because you do not understand what it means to be "IN CHRIST" - I COULD NOT SPEAK TO YOU AS SPIRITUAL BUT AS TO CARNAL AS A BABE IN CHRIST.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
(1 John 1:8, 0 NASB)

Plain as day.

These are the more compelling verses that force us to abandon your understanding of John's 'sinneth not' verses. It's impossible for John to say we don't sin when he just said we do. And calls the person who says they don't sin a liar. Like the Pharisees.

As I said the conflict is in your mind, "renew" your mind and then you will understand that "both" these scriptures are 100% true in their context.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is upholding the law by faith in Christ legalism?

You seem to use words that you have no understanding of? "the law is not of faith" We "uphold" the true standard of the law, in that we admit that Only Christ can justify us. That we are not able to justify ourselves by keeping the law.

How is seeking to do good according to the requirements of God (ie, 'don't show favoritism', etc.), through the ministry of the work of the Holy Spirit changing my mind and heart about sin, equal to legalism and the effort to earn my own declaration of righteousness? I'll keep asking this queston until you answer it. That's actually called 'walking by the Spirit'. But if you only see 'walking by the Spirit' as some kind of lofty supernatural experience as the charismatics teach you won't get it. I know. I've been subjected to this misguided, even erroneous teaching. It does NOT lead to the character of Christ in a person. It leads to a high minded, puffed up, religious attitude of superiority. For surely it is only those who are in good with God, being obedient and all, who have these experiences. I know what I'm talking about here, folks. It's a horrible, arrogant twist on grace that actually produces the exact opposite grace should produce in a person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not sure what point you "think" your making, of course John was teaching that "IN CHRIST" we have no sin and cannot sin. The conflict is in your mind because you do not understand what it means to be "IN CHRIST" - I COULD NOT SPEAK TO YOU AS SPIRITUAL BUT AS TO CARNAL AS A BABE IN CHRIST.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
(1 John 1:8, 0 NASB)

Plain as day.

These are the more compelling verses that force us to abandon your understanding of John's 'sinneth not' verses. It's impossible for John to say we don't sin when he just said we do. And calls the person who says they don't sin a liar. Like the Pharisees.

As I said the conflict is in your mind, "renew" your mind and then you will understand that "both" these scriptures are 100% true in their context.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Another evasive 'non-answer'.

So I just need to get 'more spiritual' to understand an explanation you haven't provided? Really? No, I know how this works in the fringes of the charismatic church.

 

[Elijah674]

Possible, this is what John is speaking? But we all know many "Christians" that speak evil of the Holy Spirit, I warn them with strong words as all should. But I am not convinced this is what John is speaking of, more likely he is speaking to that which I posted.

So are you saying, that John is saying, that we should not pray for someone who as fallen from grace, to be restored?

Well to use your own logic, are you saying we should not pray for those who speak evil of the Holy Spirit? as many do? The issue is "life" and life is in the "Spirit". The "letter" - legalism is death.

I did not say that we shouldn't pray for those who say that some living now, are not operating in the Holy Spirit. The scripture I pointed out was very specific. It was Jesus, doing miracles and they were saying that He was doing them by the power of satan, not the Holy Spirit. Now most people I hear do not say such things. They say things like, those gifts aren't for today, that person is making that up, that wasn't really a miracle, that didn't really happen, etc, etc...
The Pharisees knew that Jesus was not a devil worshipper! And they knew that God did awesome miracles. They knew and had experienced the power and glory of the Holy Spirit. They only said what they said to discredit Him.
But obviously they went too far.

Now look at Hebrews 6. Those people had experienced that power, they knew, just like the Pharisees knew

Hey, who knows what you are talking about??
The verse is Heb. 6:6. But lets start with verse 1-6.

[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[3] And this will we do, if God permit.

[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

--Elijah

PS: That is the Great Transgression that David talks of in Psalms 19:13 + 1 John 5:16 'sin unto death.' Eternal SECOND DEATH!

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is a good honest question. The mind of each believer but must be "renewed" unto the "Image" and knowledge of Christ. Not all believers will surrender to the Spirit, but most remain in a "carnal" condition, just as Paul said "I could not speak to you as spiritual" but as to carnal. So much of the New Testament is written to give guidance to "carnal" believers. To in effect control them and bring them unto regeneration as they are able to have their minds renewed.

See? Just more 'holier-than-thou' condescension.

Paul hardly made this kind of boast. Are you saying Paul was a carnal babe in Christ?

Getting the picture now of how wrong this attitude is?

What? I never in any way suggested Paul was carnal, but that He could not speak to all as "spiritual" I think you should reread my post?

I suggested it. Because what you said applies to Paul who never condescended to his congregations as far as I know. He made no boast of 'having arrived'. Quite the opposite if I'm not mistaken. Quite the opposite. Would you dare say you haven't arrived? Did you know the real George Muller did say that?

 

[Deborah13]

The problem is, walking by the Spirit does not mean you don't know or care what the law says to do. It means you rely on the ministry of the Spirit in our lives to do what God requires.

This is a true statement. So maybe the question should be, Why does God require obedience?
And then, how are we able to meet those requirements? Which I think you have already answered in your statement above.