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TRUE HOLINESS

We are all sinners. Everyone of us. But Paul in Romans said "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the Law but under Grace."Romans 6:14 So shall we sin because of this. God Forbid. But when you do, and we will, our sins no longer have bondage over us. I am thankfull I don't have to work to earn anything from God. I rest in him from my works and trust in his.

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us....Plsm 103:12 Now Thats GOOD NEWS.
 
You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there. :lol
I just checked your bio to see if a pastor, or someone serving in some kind of official capacity in the church was mocking and shaming me because of my doctrine. Lol's were not given to mock other people because of what they believe.

It would be impossible for me to sit under a teacher who did that to me...and I would have every Biblical right and responsibility not to, according to Jesus.
 
Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Spirit=grace
Flesh=law

If, as you say "Flesh=law", then how do you explain what Paul says in Romans 7?
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14 ESV)
Then we also have what he wrote to the Galatians (a little more context this time).
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Gal. 5:16-17 ESV)
The desires of the flesh are against the things of the Spirit. If we walk by the Spirit, then we will not desire the things of the flesh, but rather spiritual things which, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, would include the law.

Here's something else Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome.
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (Rom. 8:7 ESV)
It is the mind set on the flesh that does not submit to God's law. It seems logical to me to conclude from this that the mind set on the Spirit can and does submit to God's law.

It looks to me like Scripture doesn't support your view that "Flesh=law".

George Muller doesn't understand the scriptures that he shares somehow proving how bad 'law' is to believers are addressed to natural, unconverted people, not the people of God.
:toofunny Are you being sincere?:stinkeye
Ga 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
How are you missing it in Paul's teaching? The problem is trying to be justified by law, not simply being obedient to the requirements of the law (do not steal, do not lie, etc.).

"4 You who are trying to be justified by the law..." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

But you insist the bad thing about law for believers is simply knowing what the law says and seeking to be obedient to what is written.

"25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:25 NASB)

But you oppose James and say the person who does this is guilty of following the false gospel of works justification.
 
The law can't do to believers what you are so sure it can.


Why are you so sure it can't?
Read Romans 7.

The contract that held us in marital bondage with sinful flesh, so that we had to obey it's husbandly demands, was the law. But Paul reminds us that marital contract ended when sinful flesh died with Christ on the cross through our faith in Christ (marriage ends when one of the partners dies).

Paul tells believers this to give us the courage and confidence to resist the toothless demands of a sin nature that has been crucified with Christ. But Muller is arguing that the law still has the power to keep believers relying on Christ in bondage to sinful flesh that Paul says it does not have. The only way a believer can come under the bondage of sinful flesh via the law is to abandon justification through Christ and turn to law for justification. IOW, become an unbeliever.

The law can only keep unbelievers, relying on the law instead of Christ, in bondage to sinful flesh. Simply knowing what the law says and obeying it is not turning to the law for justification and becoming someone who no longer believes in Christ--an unbeliever. If that's true then James and Paul taught the church to seek justification through obedience to the law and were turning them away from faith in Christ.
 
The law can only keep unbelievers, relying on the law instead of Christ, in bondage to sinful flesh

There are churches that teaches the Law must be obeyed or they will lose their salvation. They teach that every time you sin you must repent right away because if you die with unrepented sin, you may not be saved. That you are only righteous, in Christ, when you have no unrepented sin. saved, not saved, repent, saved again.....kinda

So you are saying that the people in those churches are unbelievers?
 
Any part? Does that include these two commandments?

you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5 ESV)

I still want to know how these two Mosaic laws get exempt from Muller's doctrine that says reading and then obeying what is written is equivalent to trying to be justified by that obedience.
 
The law can only keep unbelievers, relying on the law instead of Christ, in bondage to sinful flesh

There are churches that teaches the Law must be obeyed or they will lose their salvation. They teach that every time you sin you must repent right away because if you die with unrepented sin, you may not be saved. That you are only righteous, in Christ, when you have no unrepented sin. saved, not saved, repent, saved again.....kinda

So you are saying that the people in those churches are unbelievers?
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I believe the blessed Cross of the Lord Jesus is glorious success: not limited by the shortcomings and weaknesses of those whom He has redeemed.

Christ's own lawkeeping is imputed to the believer: all part of the great truth of justification in Romans.

Blessings.
 
The law can only keep unbelievers, relying on the law instead of Christ, in bondage to sinful flesh

There are churches that teaches the Law must be obeyed or they will lose their salvation.
Well, speaking generally as the Bible does, people who don't obey the law, 'do not murder', 'do not steal', etc. can not be saved. Not because that obedience justifies a person before God, but because a 'faith' that is not obedient is a 'faith' that can not save, says James.


They teach that every time you sin you must repent right away because if you die with unrepented sin, you may not be saved. That you are only righteous, in Christ, when you have no unrepented sin. saved, not saved, repent, saved again.....kinda

So you are saying that the people in those churches are unbelievers?
Misguided at best...unsaved at worse. It's impossible to categorically define them as saved or lost.

My point is, Paul warns believers about the bondage associated with law keeping when they walk away from Christ (becoming unbelievers) and rely on the law for justification. Don't believe me? He warns them they will be cut off from Christ, not remain in Christ but be in bondage to sin.
 
The law can only keep unbelievers, relying on the law instead of Christ, in bondage to sinful flesh

There are churches that teaches the Law must be obeyed or they will lose their salvation. They teach that every time you sin you must repent right away because if you die with unrepented sin, you may not be saved. That you are only righteous, in Christ, when you have no unrepented sin. saved, not saved, repent, saved again.....kinda

So you are saying that the people in those churches are unbelievers?
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I believe the blessed Cross of the Lord Jesus is glorious success: not limited by the shortcomings and weaknesses of those whom He has redeemed.

Christ's own lawkeeping is imputed to the believer: all part of the great truth of justification in Romans.

Blessings.
Which is basically what I said.

Let God decide who is sinning because they're not even in Christ to begin with, or are sinning themselves out of Christ. It's just not something that can be nailed down at any one moment in time in a person's life from an outside perspective.
 
The law can only keep unbelievers, relying on the law instead of Christ, in bondage to sinful flesh

There are churches that teaches the Law must be obeyed or they will lose their salvation. They teach that every time you sin you must repent right away because if you die with unrepented sin, you may not be saved. That you are only righteous, in Christ, when you have no unrepented sin. saved, not saved, repent, saved again.....kinda

So you are saying that the people in those churches are unbelievers?
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I believe the blessed Cross of the Lord Jesus is glorious success: not limited by the shortcomings and weaknesses of those whom He has redeemed.

Christ's own lawkeeping is imputed to the believer: all part of the great truth of justification in Romans.

Blessings.

Spoken let a true Christian, brother. :)
 
Which is basically what I said.

Let God decide who is sinning because they're not even in Christ to begin with, or are sinning themselves out of Christ. It's just not something that can be nailed down at any one moment in time in a person's life from an outside perspective.

This statement is not anything like what [MENTION=41474]farouk[/MENTION] said.
He did unsave anyone.!

You don't get it at all. I am not talking about sins that are BIG sin. I know a wonderful Christian man, that has been a Christian for over 50 yrs. He told me, and he is in his 80's that if he knows he has sinned, even a little sin he always repents right away because he might forget and God would hold it against him.
Andrew Wommack, believed the same thing. He was always repenting for every little things because he was afraid. And I can tell you that man is not a sinful man. Believers can be slaves to the Law!
 
Which is basically what I said.

Let God decide who is sinning because they're not even in Christ to begin with, or are sinning themselves out of Christ. It's just not something that can be nailed down at any one moment in time in a person's life from an outside perspective.

This statement is not anything like what @farouk said.
He did unsave anyone.!

You don't get it at all. I am not talking about sins that are BIG sin. I know a wonderful Christian man, that has been a Christian for over 50 yrs. He told me, and he is in his 80's that if he knows he has sinned, even a little sin he always repents right away because he might forget and God would hold it against him.
Andrew Wommack, believed the same thing. He was always repenting for every little things because he was afraid. And I can tell you that man is not a sinful man. Believers can be slaves to the Law!
@Deborah13 :

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets"

Romans 3.21: Great reference for a wrist tattoo, eh? :)

Blessings.
 
Romans 3.21: Great reference for a wrist tattoo, eh?


I like to make that a big sign. If I was young and witnessed like I did years ago, it would a great picket sign.
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Maybe today's generation would do a dispensational version of the black power salute, with Romans 3.21 on the wrist instead of a WWJD bracelet... :)

Blessings.

(I'm kidding right? but you know where I am doctrinally...aesthetically?...)
 
We are all sinners. Everyone of us. But Paul in Romans said "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the Law but under Grace."Romans 6:14 So shall we sin because of this. God Forbid. But when you do, and we will, our sins no longer have bondage over us. I am thankfull I don't have to work to earn anything from God. I rest in him from my works and trust in his.

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us....Plsm 103:12 Now Thats GOOD NEWS.

What do you do when He tells you to do something?


JLB
 
Which is basically what I said.

Let God decide who is sinning because they're not even in Christ to begin with, or are sinning themselves out of Christ. It's just not something that can be nailed down at any one moment in time in a person's life from an outside perspective.

This statement is not anything like what @farouk said.
He did unsave anyone.!
This is what I'm referring to in what he said:

"I believe the blessed Cross of the Lord Jesus is glorious success: not limited by the shortcomings and weaknesses of those whom He has redeemed."

That's what grace is all about. Salvation is not based on behavioral perfection. The grace of God fills in between where you're at now and perfection. That being true let's not categorically judge imperfection in professing Christians as equating to not being saved. But that is what you were basically asking me to do.

And just so we're clear, the cross of Christ IS limited by unbelief. This is so fundamental to the gospel message that I'm amazed anyone can think grace is so gracious that it covers unbelief. Unbelief--the rejection of Christ--is a weakness and shortcoming that the cross of Christ can NOT overcome. That's not even fair debate. What is fair debate is if once you truly believe you can not shrink back to not believing.



You don't get it at all. I am not talking about sins that are BIG sin.
I understood what you were saying. I've familiar with the scenario you painted.



I know a wonderful Christian man, that has been a Christian for over 50 yrs. He told me, and he is in his 80's that if he knows he has sinned, even a little sin he always repents right away because he might forget and God would hold it against him.
Andrew Wommack, believed the same thing. He was always repenting for every little things because he was afraid. And I can tell you that man is not a sinful man. Believers can be slaves to the Law!
This is not Muller's argument about law keeping. He says law keeping arouses and makes you a slave to sinful passions.

What you are describing is Paul's argument--enslavement, if you will, to the WAY of the law--thinking a person is justified, and therefore acceptable for salvation, by WAY of the effort of law keeping. This is the bondage the Galatians were subjecting themselves to.

If that was all Muller was arguing for I would not be resisting him. But this is not the point Muller is making. The enslavement he is talking about is the slavery to sin produced by the law, even in believers trusting in Christ, thinking that just reading the law and wanting to keep it binds the believer to sin who is seeking to be obedient to what he sees written in the Bible. No, the law arouses sin in unbelievers, not believers who's flesh is crucified in Christ and therefore released from the marriage license of the law that used to have the power and authority to bind them in marital bondage to flesh when flesh was alive.

A marriage contract--in this case the law--no longer has the authority to bind a person and their sin together when one of them--in this case sinful flesh--has died. But Muller says the law still has the authority to do that even though sinful flesh has been nailed to the cross with Christ and, therefore, the marriage legally ended by reason of death. He says this in direct contradiction to Paul:.

"...knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. 7 for he who has died is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7 NASB)

As you can see this is true for those who are crucified in Christ--that is believers. It is unbelievers, those whose old sinful self is still alive, for whom they and their sin are firmly held in marital union by the law which acts like a marital contract to hold them in that relationship with sinful flesh.
 
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"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets"
Meaning '...without the WAY of the law...'.

The WAY of righteousness now revealed is that of faith in Jesus Christ. That is the WAY a person is justified. Not in the old WAY of justification by keeping the law.

"...we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NASB)

This does not mean we don't serve the requirements of the law. It means we don't serve in the WAY of law as a means to righteousness.
 
Unbelief--the rejection of Christ--is a weakness and shortcoming that the cross of Christ can NOT overcome.


I never said anything about the rejection of Christ. Just the opposite. And NOT people living in SIN!!

AND I am NOT talking about MULLER"S posts. I'm talking to Jethro about what Jethro believes, I actually agree with you many times.
Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. With both of you. In fact, I think you guys, actually believe the same thing, but you both demand that your wording makes it different somehow.
Just because you two have some doctrinal differences this whole thing has been about one thing.

DO you believe you have to earn your salvation? That's what it boils down to.

You Jethro, would say NO.
And Mr Muller would agree.

You both believe that when you are a Christian, you should walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh!!

But it doesn't matter about what I asked you about, what you said. You are too busy with Mr Muller. Some other time, maybe.
 
Unbelief--the rejection of Christ--is a weakness and shortcoming that the cross of Christ can NOT overcome.


I never said anything about the rejection of Christ. Just the opposite. And NOT people living in SIN!!

AND I am NOT talking about MULLER"S posts. I'm talking to Jethro about what Jethro believes, I actually agree with you many times.
Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. With both of you. In fact, I think you guys, actually believe the same thing, but you both demand that your wording makes it different somehow.
Just because you two have some doctrinal differences this whole thing has been about one thing.

DO you believe you have to earn your salvation? That's what it boils down to.

You Jethro, would say NO.
And Mr Muller would agree.

You both believe that when you are a Christian, you should walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh!!

But it doesn't matter about what I asked you about, what you said. You are too busy with Mr Muller. Some other time, maybe.

I understood your question and I answered it. I can not make a categorical judgment about if the person who believes they are lost if they sin even a little sin is really lost or not. That's not fair to the person.

This is similar to how we judge law keepers for saying you can't be saved if you don't keep Sabbath. The problem with judging that is they can mean that in the same way that we say a person can not be saved who does all the things Paul says you can't do and expect to inherit the kingdom. We know Paul is not pushing a works gospel when he says that, but it could be unfairly interpreted that way.
 
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