TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

So who has suggested that its ok to sin? It seems a legalist cannot understand obedience of grace, I have promoted that a believer should walk in the Spirit, and that the Spirit should govern their behavior. Now those who are under the law, are in fact in the flesh and are in a condition of death, that Paul is speaking of. I suggest you stop trying to build a doctrine around one scripture that you "think" promotes a form of legalism, it does not, but in context it simply means that which Paul says in many places.

There is no legalism in what this scriptures states.

It is an admonition to believers who are under grace.

Those under grace are warned not to presents themselves as a slave to sin. That is the "WHOM" to which Paul refers.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Every believer has a choice to make whether to be obedient unto righteousness, or to sin and become a slave to sin which leads to death.

Whatever sin that is, whether it is adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; if anyone who is under grace practices any on these sins and becomes a slave to any of these, it will lead to death, whereby they will not be allowed to enter the kingdom.


JLB

The law makes slaves to sin, and those who walk in grace walk in the Spirit, for it is the Spirit of Grace. And of course is Paul is speaking to all believers, and his point is that the flesh is a "slave'' of sin and the law holds the flesh in the condition of being a slave. Only when one is set free from the law are they set free from slavery to sin.

Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Until one has died to the law, they cannot be set free from sin, they are a slave according to the flesh (the old man)

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Grace is the power over sin, legalism is the slavery to sin.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Now that we are under grace and not under the law, shall we sin?


What is your answer to people who are under grace?

Is it ok for them to sin?

What are the consequences of a person who is under grace, that becomes a slave to sin.

What would you yourself tell a new Christian, who knows nothing about the law of Moses, and it came to your attention that this person who was a new Christian, was having an adulterous affair in your Church, and the members came to you because they had warned this person several times about the sin of adultery.

What would you tell this person that the consequences of their actions would be in they continued in the sin of adultery.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Based on the above mentioned scripture that Paul is speaking to people under grace, he warns them if they present themselves to be a slave of sin, it will lead to death.


JLB

Well all "Christians" who walk in the truth are under grace, and as I have said before I am in no way promoting that believer should walk in the flesh, this is death because "life" is in the Spirit. What I have taught and what Paul is teaching is that one must be set free from the law to walk in the Spirit. To walk in the flesh either in "legalism" or in the "lust" of the flesh is "death". But one cannot walk in the Spirit until they are set-free from the law, by the grace of Christ. Now what Paul is saying is that we are "New Creations" we have died to the "old man" and must walk in the truth of Christ to walk in "life".

 

[George Muller]

well lets look at the context of what Paul Wrote in Romans 7

Yes, before I answer any individual points, let's take a close look at the context, starting at the beginning of chapter 7.

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law... (Rom. 7:1 ESV)
​

Everything Paul says about the law in his letter to the Roman Christians was directed toward people who knew the law. Do you know the law, George Muller? Have you studied it? I'm not asking whether you have read it once or twice in a "read the bible in a year" type program. I'm asking if you've actually sat down with a concordance and commentaries from different sources and looked at it with and open mind to find out the truth about what the law is, what it says, what it's purpose is and how it applies to us today. Have you ever done that? If you haven't, then you can't really say that you "know the law", can you? And if you don't "know the law", then you have no business trying to interpret Romans chapter 7 and trying to explain it to you won't work, since a knowledge of the law is necessary to understand it properly.

I have been studying the law for around 8 years now. I have read commentaries from a number of different sources, both Christian and Messianic Jewish sources. I have in this time learned not only what the law actually says, but also what rabbis, both Messianic and Orthodox have to say about it, as well as what both modern and ancient (first and second centuries) Christian theologians and church fathers had to say about it. I can explain Romans 7 to you, but will you be able to understand it? Can you honestly say that you "know the law"?

Look TOG, I know very well what and why Paul made this statement and the point he was making. Now if you have a point about the scriptures please just make your point and keep your boasting about "knowing the law" to yourself. Only those who know Grace and teach the grace of God, uphold the true standard and purpose of the law.

 

[George Muller]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So those under law are "slaves" to sin and are in this condition of spiritual death, only in grace can one be delivered from sin and sins power.

Listen carefully to your own scriptural quote, George...

"But now we are delivered from the law..."

The law can't do to believers what you are so sure it can. Not delivered from the requirements of the (moral) law, but delivered from the power of the law to condemn and keep us locked in sin, the law acting as a marriage license between natural man and sin, not spiritual man and sin. Spiritual man is married to Christ, and the contract that holds him in marital union with new husband Christ is the Holy Spirit.

That does not even make biblical sense? Paul spends most of his epistles warning against turning from grace to law, because the law is not of faith and is the strength of sin. Think about how unbiblical your statement is as one reads the book of Gal. or 2 Cor 3?

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You must be getting really desperate to even attempt to try and make such a silly point?

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

Just knowing what the Word says and then doing it is not categorically and without exception trying to be justified by the law. If it is then James and Paul taught the churches to try to be justified by the law. There's no escaping that if your doctrine is true.

So, the question is, why would Paul be in opposition to his own message of avoiding the false gospel of trying to be justified by works required by the law (ie, do not lie, do not steal, etc.) by teaching the churches to do those things? He has very stern warnings for those who do that. But according to you, since he explains what the churches should be obedient to do (because, as you say, they are spiritually immature) he is guilty of the very thing he is fighting against in the church and under the condemnation he says those who do that are under.

Jethro, Paul taught that "nothing profits but faith working by love" Now "love" in the Spirit is what Paul taught, James, Peter, John etc... And the is the Commandment of Christ: THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. So of course one can see this as the "moral" element and law of the New Testament. The fact that love fulfills the law does not mean they are promoting the law of moses. But love apart from the written code is what the NEW Covenant teaches.

 

[George Muller]

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

I just checked your bio to see if a pastor, or someone serving in some kind of official capacity in the church was mocking and shaming me because of my doctrine. Lol's were not given to mock other people because of what they believe.

It would be impossible for me to sit under a teacher who did that to me...and I would have every Biblical right and responsibility not to, according to Jesus.

Well Jethro, It is my calling to run the legalist out of the Lords church, not make them comfortable and to allow them to promote doctrines of error. Lets be honest, if you where to come into a grace group you would attempt to overturn the truth through your legalist doctrines. Of course I would drive you from the flock, if you in any way attempted to teach the things you promote on this forum? A little ridicule of ones doctrines will seem a small thing to those who pervert the gospel, on judgment Day. For the wrath of God will be against those who cause others to stumble.

 

[JLB]

The law makes slaves to sin, and those who walk in grace walk in the Spirit, for it is the Spirit of Grace. And of course is Paul is speaking to all believers, and his point is that the flesh is a "slave'' of sin and the law holds the flesh in the condition of being a slave. Only when one is set free from the law are they set free from slavery to sin.

Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Until one has died to the law, they cannot be set free from sin, they are a slave according to the flesh (the old man)

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Grace is the power over sin, legalism is the slavery to sin.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Now that we are under grace and not under the law, shall we sin?


What is your answer to people who are under grace?

Is it ok for them to sin?

What are the consequences of a person who is under grace, that becomes a slave to sin.

What would you yourself tell a new Christian, who knows nothing about the law of Moses, and it came to your attention that this person who was a new Christian, was having an adulterous affair in your Church, and the members came to you because they had warned this person several times about the sin of adultery.

What would you tell this person that the consequences of their actions would be in they continued in the sin of adultery.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Based on the above mentioned scripture that Paul is speaking to people under grace, he warns them if they present themselves to be a slave of sin, it will lead to death.


JLB

Well all "Christians" who walk in the truth are under grace, and as I have said before I am in no way promoting that believer should walk in the flesh, this is death because "life" is in the Spirit. What I have taught and what Paul is teaching is that one must be set free from the law to walk in the Spirit. To walk in the flesh either in "legalism" or in the "lust" of the flesh is "death". But one cannot walk in the Spirit until they are set-free from the law, by the grace of Christ. Now what Paul is saying is that we are "New Creations" we have died to the "old man" and must walk in the truth of Christ to walk in "life".

So, if a person who is under grace, turns back to the law or turns back to walk in the flesh it leads to death?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

I just checked your bio to see if a pastor, or someone serving in some kind of official capacity in the church was mocking and shaming me because of my doctrine. Lol's were not given to mock other people because of what they believe.

It would be impossible for me to sit under a teacher who did that to me...and I would have every Biblical right and responsibility not to, according to Jesus.

Well Jethro, It is my calling to run the legalist out of the Lords church, not make them comfortable and to allow them to promote doctrines of error. Lets be honest, if you where to come into a grace group you would attempt to overturn the truth through your legalist doctrines. Of course I would drive you from the flock, if you in any way attempted to teach the things you promote on this forum? A little ridicule of ones doctrines will seem a small thing to those who pervert the gospel, on judgment Day. For the wrath of God will be against those who cause others to stumble.

Well then you would have driven Jesus and James out of your grace group and ridiculed their doctrine also:

"...whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:19 NASB)

"25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 2:25 NASB)

What you call legalism is found right in the Bible. How can you possibly think the judgment of God will follow the one who says what James and Jesus say above?

You've never explained how it's okay for the Bible to 'make people stumble' (specifically babes in Christ) with their teaching, but not okay for the rest of us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That does not even make biblical sense? Paul spends most of his epistles warning against turning from grace to law, because the law is not of faith and is the strength of sin. Think about how unbiblical your statement is as one reads the book of Gal. or 2 Cor 3?

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You must be getting really desperate to even attempt to try and make such a silly point?

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

Just knowing what the Word says and then doing it is not categorically and without exception trying to be justified by the law. If it is then James and Paul taught the churches to try to be justified by the law. There's no escaping that if your doctrine is true.

So, the question is, why would Paul be in opposition to his own message of avoiding the false gospel of trying to be justified by works required by the law (ie, do not lie, do not steal, etc.) by teaching the churches to do those things? He has very stern warnings for those who do that. But according to you, since he explains what the churches should be obedient to do (because, as you say, they are spiritually immature) he is guilty of the very thing he is fighting against in the church and under the condemnation he says those who do that are under.

Jethro, Paul taught that "nothing profits but faith working by love"

...Nothing profits for JUSTIFICATION but faith manifesting itself through love. Read it. It's right there in the context of the verse you are UN-rightly dividing.

The fact that love fulfills the law does not mean they are promoting the law of moses. But love apart from the written code is what the NEW Covenant teaches.

...Apart from the WAY of the written code to be made righteous, not apart from the requirements of the written code themselves.

You said it yourself...faith fulfills the written code. What faith is opposed to is the WAY of the law for justification, not the requirements of the law. Faith upholds them. Being spiritual is keeping those requirements, not somehow knowing what they are without reading them. Remember, I come from the charismatic movement and the thing I learned about the misguided teachings in their group is this idea that 'spiritual' and the evidence of your relationship with God is signs and wonders and miraculous powers. No! This is true spirituality, and which shows you know God:

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22-23 NIV)

Great powers of discernment, or prophecy, or teaching, or healing, etc. will do you nothing on the Day of Wrath, but godly character according to the fruit of the Spirit will. It's imperative that the church be prepared that way on the Day of Judgment and not with boasts about their spiritual prowess in their gifts. Reba pointed this out in 1 Corinthians 13. You are NOTHING until you ACT like Jesus in character. That is how you prepare for the Day of Judgment. Spiritual gifts will not make up for, or replace bad character. Never.

"15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. [...]
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" (Matthew 7:15,19-23 NIV)

Church, don't be fooled by what some insist is 'having faith', and is 'spiritual' and is pleasing to God and will cause it to be good with you on the Day of Wrath (miraculous powers, not having to read the Bible to know good from bad, etc.). The fruit of the Spirit is what is 'spiritual' and which counts.

 

[JLB]

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

I just checked your bio to see if a pastor, or someone serving in some kind of official capacity in the church was mocking and shaming me because of my doctrine. Lol's were not given to mock other people because of what they believe.

It would be impossible for me to sit under a teacher who did that to me...and I would have every Biblical right and responsibility not to, according to Jesus.

Well Jethro, It is my calling to run the legalist out of the Lords church, not make them comfortable and to allow them to promote doctrines of error. Lets be honest, if you where to come into a grace group you would attempt to overturn the truth through your legalist doctrines. Of course I would drive you from the flock, if you in any way attempted to teach the things you promote on this forum? A little ridicule of ones doctrines will seem a small thing to those who pervert the gospel, on judgment Day. For the wrath of God will be against those who cause others to stumble.

George, when a person thinks that the Law of sin and death of Romans 8 is the 10 commandments, they definatly don't know the law, and have no buisness trying to teach what Romans 7 means.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


The law of sin and death was seen in the garden when death entered to all men because of Adams sin of disobedience/unbelief.

The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

My point is, Paul warns believers about the bondage associated with law keeping when they walk away from Christ (becoming unbelievers) and rely on the law for justification.

I apologize, I did not see post 311. Somehow missed it in my profile quotes, sorry.

If a believer could reject their salvation in Christ, and become an unbeliever, they wouldn't care one bit about justification by the Law. The Holy Spirit would no longer be present. They wouldn't care if they broke the law, being lawless.

The law didn't bring them to Christ and it has no power to keep them there.

 

[TOG]

Look TOG, I know very well what and why Paul made this statement and the point he was making. Now if you have a point about the scriptures please just make your point and keep your boasting about "knowing the law" to yourself. Only those who know Grace and teach the grace of God, uphold the true standard and purpose of the law.

I do not boast about my knowledge of the law. I was merely answering a question before you asked it. I knew that if I asked you how much you know about the law, you wouldn't answer, but just come right back and ask me what I know. Since you didn't answer the question, I'm going to presume that the answer is "no".

You ask me to make a point about Scriputre. I made a point in the post you quoted, but you totally missed it. I don't suppose making any more points will do any good.

 

[Deborah13]

But one cannot walk in the Spirit until they are set-free from the law, by the grace of Christ. Now what Paul is saying is that we are "New Creations" we have died to the "old man" and must walk in the truth of Christ to walk in "life".

Would you say, that "walking in the Spirit" is the process of renewing one's mind to come into agreement with the Spirit? And that sanctification, for salvation is a done deal? And that there are believers who do not KNOW that they are justified and sanctified by His righteousness and His holiness?

 

[Elijah674]

Look TOG, I know very well what and why Paul made this statement and the point he was making. Now if you have a point about the scriptures please just make your point and keep your boasting about "knowing the law" to yourself. Only those who know Grace and teach the grace of God, uphold the true standard and purpose of the law.

I do not boast about my knowledge of the law. I was merely answering a question before you asked it. I knew that if I asked you how much you know about the law, you wouldn't answer, but just come right back and ask me what I know. Since you didn't answer the question, I'm going to presume that the answer is "no".

You ask me to make a point about Scriputre. I made a point in the post you quoted, but you totally missed it. I don't suppose making any more points will do any good.

Yes that surely is a Born Again remark to the young feller?

And Paul concludes in Rom. 2:14-15 to the ones who had learned of Christ but never even knew Him, and note where HIS LAW IS LOCATED!

And how did the learn to [[OBEY! ]] ... through Christ's CREATION!
Rom. 2
[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] Which shew the work of the law [[written in their hearts]], their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My point is, Paul warns believers about the bondage associated with law keeping when they walk away from Christ (becoming unbelievers) and rely on the law for justification.

I apologize, I did not see post 311. Somehow missed it in my profile quotes, sorry.

If a believer could reject their salvation in Christ, and become an unbeliever, they wouldn't care one bit about justification by the Law. The Holy Spirit would no longer be present. They wouldn't care if they broke the law, being lawless.

The law didn't bring them to Christ and it has no power to keep them there.

Hey, I understand about the missed notifications, lol.

Now I understand the thinking about not caring anymore when someone who professed faith in Christ no longer does. But if what you say was true there would be no such thing as false religion. It's interesting how unbelievers and Christ rejectors still maintain some kind of 'religion' even if it is one of their own making. Like Ophrah, they believe there is a God, and a God who will judge, but they reject the real truth about him and construct their own twisted beliefs about the unseen God. Don't you agree that some people who have rejected Christianity don't just go back to no religion at all? They sometimes change Christianity to suit their own desires and station in life. Agreed? It's a 'faith' but it's not faith in the true gospel.

 

[JLB]

Look TOG, I know very well what and why Paul made this statement and the point he was making. Now if you have a point about the scriptures please just make your point and keep your boasting about "knowing the law" to yourself. Only those who know Grace and teach the grace of God, uphold the true standard and purpose of the law.

I do not boast about my knowledge of the law. I was merely answering a question before you asked it. I knew that if I asked you how much you know about the law, you wouldn't answer, but just come right back and ask me what I know. Since you didn't answer the question, I'm going to presume that the answer is "no".

You ask me to make a point about Scriputre. I made a point in the post you quoted, but you totally missed it. I don't suppose making any more points will do any good.

I see your point and don't think you were "boasting" in your knowledge of the law.

That is his tactic, to attack people who mention things about the law, or that disagree with him in general.

Please comment on my post 331. What is your opinion on the law of sin and death being the 10 commandments?


Thanks JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Don't you agree that some people who have rejected Christianity don't just go back to no religion at all?

If someone looked at Christianity and rejected it, they are not going back, they never accepted Christianity to start with. Did they ever ask Jesus to come into their heart and save them? I don't know.

real truth about him

Do you believe one can loose their salvation through disobedience? If they were truly saved, with saving faith. And if not why?

 

[JLB]

Do you believe one can loose their salvation through disobedience?

Deborah, To me it is not so much a matter of do I believe one can lose their salvation through disobedience, but rather do I believe what the scriptures teach.

One is the opinion of a man.

The other is the truth of the Kingdom.

Here are 3 different scriptures that speak to this question -

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

and again -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Practicing sin is likened to presenting yourself as a slave to sin, in that they both show a lifestyle of sin, rather than someone stumbling and getting back on tract.

I guess the only debate here would be if "not entering the kingdom" is a reference to losing one's salvation.

with that my final scripture -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


In this teaching of Jesus, we see two groups of people:

• Those who entered the kingdom.

• Those who did not were banished to everlasting fire.

Me personally, I equate being banished to everlasting fire as losing one's salvation.


JLB

 

[TOG]

I see your point and don't think you were "boasting" in your knowledge of the law. That is his tactic, to attack people who mention things about the law, or that disagree with him in general. Please comment on my post 331. What is your opinion on the law of sin and death being the 10 commandments?

Thanks JLB

George, when a person thinks that the Law of sin and death of Romans 8 is the 10 commandments, they definatly don't know the law, and have no buisness trying to teach what Romans 7 means. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2 The law of sin and death was seen in the garden when death entered to all men because of Adams sin of disobedience/unbelief. The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

JLB

A common mistake people make is thinking that any mention of "the law" is necessarily a reference to God's law. This cannot possibly be the case in Paul's letter to the Romans, and one simple proof is this passage.

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Rom. 7:22-23 ESV)
​

Here we have at least 3 and possibly 4 laws in 2 verses:

1. The law of God
2. Another (unnamed) law
3. The law of Paul's mind
4. The law of sin

It could be that the law of God, (in which Paul delights in his inner being) and the law of Paul's mind are the same (and I believe they are), but since there is a battle between these two and the others, the law of sin cannot possibly be the same as the law of God. Further evidence of this comes just a few verses later.

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8:2 ESV)
​

Here we see that the law of the Spirit and the law of sin are definitely not the same. But which of them is God's law? In Rom. 7:7-20 Paul talks about what obviously is God's law (the one that says "Thou shall not covet"). He says that it is holy, righteous, good and, most importantly for what we're looking at, spiritual. If the law of God is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) and the law of the Spirit sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2) then it seems obvious that the law of God, including the 10 commandments, cannot possibly be the same as the law of sin and death.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, To me it is not so much a matter of do I believe one can lose their salvation through disobedience, but rather do I believe what the scriptures teach.

Isn't what we believe, the same as what we believe the scripture says??? I thought I was addressing another believer, believers get their beliefs from their understanding of the Word!
I wouldn't ask you about something in the Bible if I thought you didn't do your best to understand the Word.
JLB, if I thought someone was just off on their own and not trying to understand what the scriptures say to them, I wouldn't even bother asking them what they think!! They'd would be an unbeliever not reading the Word.

The other is the truth of the Kingdom.

And I suppose if I ask you what you believe, I am asking you the opinion of man? Or am I asking a brother in Christ, what the believe the truth is!

Me personally, I equate being banished to everlasting fire as losing one's salvation

Who saved you? Who took a goat and made you a sheep?

 

[JLB]

Isn't what we believe, the same as what we believe the scripture says??? I thought I was addressing another believer, believers get their beliefs from their understanding of the Word! I wouldn't ask you about something in the Bible if I thought you didn't do your best to understand the Word. JLB, if I thought someone was just off on their own and not trying to understand what the scriptures say to them, I wouldn't even bother asking them what they think!! They'd would be an unbeliever not reading the Word.

Because this is a sensitive and important subject, I wanted all who read what I write in response to your question to know I am answering using only scripture.

If I were to go by my personal experience, I would be inclined to answer a little differently, because God has been so gracious and merciful to me, to carry me so many times when I just kept falling, or should I say getting knocked down over and over...

He always gave me the strength to keep getting back up and to not give up.

So if I were to go by my personal experience I would probably be in the OSAS camp.

However, I can not ignore the truth of what the scriptures teach.

That is why I said what I said, not to be uppity with you, but to make sure you knew I was using only scripture and not my opinion.

Who saved you? Who took a goat and made you a sheep?

A goat is not a reference to an unbeliever, per say.

They are unbeliever's, but not unbeliever's in Christ.

A goat is a reference to a christian who believes in Christ, but doesn't obey.

Let's look -

... as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Goats are those who call Jesus Lord, but don't do what He says.

"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here we see that the law of the Spirit and the law of sin are definitely not the same. But which of them is God's law?

I probably, mostly agree with you.

The law of sin and death, which is a law of God, just like the law of gravity is a law of God, and the law of sowing and reaping is a law of God.

The law of sin and death; The penalty for sin is death. [Someone has to pay the penalty]

The evidence that the penalty has been paid is blood. For the life of flesh is in the blood.

The law of sin and death was transgressed in the garden, and spread to all of Adam's offspring.

The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

That is what George believes.

That is the point I made.

I think that you agree, based on what you wrote.

The Law of God that Abraham walked in is not the law of Moses.

However, I believes God's Laws were seen in the law of Moses.

So that, if the law of Moses was "replaced", per say, then the Law of God that Abraham walked in is still very much intact for us today.

The key being - Abraham obeyed my Voice...


JLB