TRUE HOLINESS

[Jethro Bodine]

According to the text who has a veil over their eyes, Christians or the Jews (non-Christians)?

The veil is the law that ministers condemnation, this is not different for a Jew or a Gentile, the law condemns all and blinds all who look to the "ministry of death" written and engraved on stones. So a Gentile under law is just as blind as Jew, which point Paul makes throughout his epistles.

So then you're saying James was condemned and blinded for looking to the 'ministry of death', the law of Moses, to teach the church? Of course you'll have to say, 'no'.

So, explain the difference between James using the law to show us how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' and someone else using the law to see how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. This is what you are not showing us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You seem to have all these terms mixed up in your mind, but lack even a basic understanding of what "righteousness" is or how a Christian works righteousness through the obedience of faith working by love. The "letter" kills- "legalism" works nothing but hypocrisy and promotes the flesh of man.

How does this help your argument. It's just another non-explanatory non-answer.

I more than answered this rout, repeated, non-specific doctrine. Now you have to counter what I've been saying with substance. Answering this question I asked, and other questions, is what you have to do to get anywhere.

"How is seeing that the Word says, for example 'do not show favoritism', and then not showing favoritism categorically and without exception equivalent to 'man's righteousness' and depending on that law keeping to be made righteous?"

Well I see no question that has not been answered again and again. Even Deb tried to explain this to you. So the issue is in your ability to understand, not that the truth has not already been presented. I cannot "make" you understand what you "refuse" to understand.

Another non-answer.

If you want us to understand your position you'll have to share it.

 

[George Muller]

According to the text who has a veil over their eyes, Christians or the Jews (non-Christians)?

The veil is the law that ministers condemnation, this is not different for a Jew or a Gentile, the law condemns all and blinds all who look to the "ministry of death" written and engraved on stones. So a Gentile under law is just as blind as Jew, which point Paul makes throughout his epistles.

So then you're saying James was condemned and blinded for looking to the 'ministry of death', the law of Moses, to teach the church? Of course you'll have to say, 'no'.

So, explain the difference between James using the law to show us how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' and someone else using the law to see how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. This is what you are not showing us.

James was "not" looking to the law of Moses to justify or condemn anyone, he was using the law to help Jews understand that love in Christ is the fulfillment of the law, the law stands as a witness, not a judge or justifier.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law "written code" is not of faith.

DEPENDANCE on the law is not of faith.

How is it you can not understand the difference between DEPENDING on the works of the law to earn righteousness, and simply reading and doing it because you have the righteousness of Christ through faith in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to the text who has a veil over their eyes, Christians or the Jews (non-Christians)?

The veil is the law that ministers condemnation, this is not different for a Jew or a Gentile, the law condemns all and blinds all who look to the "ministry of death" written and engraved on stones. So a Gentile under law is just as blind as Jew, which point Paul makes throughout his epistles.

So then you're saying James was condemned and blinded for looking to the 'ministry of death', the law of Moses, to teach the church? Of course you'll have to say, 'no'.

So, explain the difference between James using the law to show us how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' and someone else using the law to see how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. This is what you are not showing us.

James was "not" looking to the law of Moses to justify or condemn anyone, he was using the law to help Jews understand that love in Christ is the fulfillment of the law, the law stands as a witness, not a judge or justifier.

Do I have to prove how wrong you are again about these assertions? A simple read of James, as I pointed out to you before, will show you are completely and utterly wrong.

 

[George Muller]

You seem to have all these terms mixed up in your mind, but lack even a basic understanding of what "righteousness" is or how a Christian works righteousness through the obedience of faith working by love. The "letter" kills- "legalism" works nothing but hypocrisy and promotes the flesh of man.

How does this help your argument. It's just another non-explanatory non-answer.

I more than answered this rout, repeated, non-specific doctrine. Now you have to counter what I've been saying with substance. Answering this question I asked, and other questions, is what you have to do to get anywhere.

"How is seeing that the Word says, for example 'do not show favoritism', and then not showing favoritism categorically and without exception equivalent to 'man's righteousness' and depending on that law keeping to be made righteous?"

Well I see no question that has not been answered again and again. Even Deb tried to explain this to you. So the issue is in your ability to understand, not that the truth has not already been presented. I cannot "make" you understand what you "refuse" to understand.

Another non-answer.

If you want us to understand your position you'll have to share it.

Deb seems to understand? and tried to explain the point to you, but I cannot "make" you understand the truth, you must first desire to know the truth.

 

[George Muller]

So then you're saying James was condemned and blinded for looking to the 'ministry of death', the law of Moses, to teach the church? Of course you'll have to say, 'no'.

So, explain the difference between James using the law to show us how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' and someone else using the law to see how to keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. This is what you are not showing us.

James was "not" looking to the law of Moses to justify or condemn anyone, he was using the law to help Jews understand that love in Christ is the fulfillment of the law, the law stands as a witness, not a judge or justifier.

Do I have to prove how wrong you are again about these assertions? A simple read of James, as I pointed out to you before, will show you are completely and utterly wrong.

Well I will be glad to help you in your struggles to understand the purpose of the law of Moses. I have all the clear and evident truth of scripture to defend the truth. So yes, Jethro, please go into James again and we will again hash out your errors.

 

[George Muller]

The law "written code" is not of faith.

DEPENDANCE on the law is not of faith.

How is it you can not understand the difference between DEPENDING on the works of the law to earn righteousness, and simply reading and doing it because you have the righteousness of Christ through faith in Christ?

define "dependence"? If it cannot justify nor condemn, it stands as a witness only to the righteous in Christ. Now the law has a purpose for the unrighteous but is not laid upon the righteous.

 

[George Muller]

It seems to me that the two greatest commandments encompass the ten commandments. Besides, it doesn't reallt say that Jesus did away with the law, but fulfilled it. It also says that not one dot or tittle of Gods word will pass away.

Right Edward we have clear and evident scripture that tell us we are not under the law of Moses, and that love fulfills all that God commanded. ALL means ALL and if anyone claims to be under any part of the law, they must keep it ALL. No one that promotes the law, promotes the true standard "every jot and tittle" "all things written in the book of the law" So of course the commandments spoken of by John are not the law of Moses. They are those John defines in plain words.

 

[George Muller]

It seems to me that the two greatest commandments encompass the ten commandments. Besides, it doesn't reallt say that Jesus did away with the law, but fulfilled it. It also says that not one dot or tittle of Gods word will pass away.

Right Edward we have clear and evident scripture that tell us we are not under the law of Moses, and that love fulfills all that God commanded. ALL means ALL and if anyone claims to be under any part of the law, they must keep it ALL. No one that promotes the law, promotes the true standard "every jot and tittle" "all things written in the book of the law" So of course the commandments spoken of by John are not the law of Moses. They are those John defines in plain words.

Also here is the "passing away" for the believer- 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The bible explains the bible, for every question there is an answer into deeper truth.

 

[reba]

reading about love here in the forums and how that is the commandant of God.. Reading about how love is THEE commandant, so to speak, yet I do read love here, I read distain, self-righteousness, arrogance, etc...
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[TOG]

ALL means ALL and if anyone claims to be under any part of the law, they must keep it ALL.

Any part? Does that include these two commandments?

you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5 ESV)
​

 

[JLB]

So what point do you think you are making?

I am making no point at all.

Paul on the other hand is making a very clear point.

Paul states clearly that if people under grace present themselves as slaves of sin, IT LEADS TO DEATH!!!


JLB

Slavery to sin is through the law, "for the law is the strength of sin" Yes I agree you are not making any point at all.

You ignore what Paul taught us because your doctrine is man made.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Paul states we are not under the law. So there is no need for you to try and bring a divisive accusation against me. We are not under the law.

I know you remember how I fought to show that the law of Moses is no longer in effect.

I am saying that believers are under grace.

Paul teaches that we who are under grace, if we present our selves as slaves to sin, that behavior will lead to death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The Holy Spirit through Paul states this clearly.

You have been exposed by God's word as a person who promotes man's doctrine.

You are being divisive and arrogant. This following scripture IMO fits you perfectly -


9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.



You continue to strive against what the scriptures say and condemn those who show what the scriptures say.

Most of what you have to say is the doctrine of men.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Perhaps you saw in anther post I said it's not JUST supernatural.

Sorry, Jethro, I didn't mean that you don't understand.

But I do believe that all we do in faith, is supernatural, in us. To God, all of these things are natural, it is His nature.

 

[George Muller]

ALL means ALL and if anyone claims to be under any part of the law, they must keep it ALL.

Any part? Does that include these two commandments?

you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5 ESV)
​

Well yes, in that if one seeks to be justified by the law of Moses, they must keep all the law "every jot and tittle" Now we know the Commandment of Christ is to love as He loves, this is the Royal Law. The Lord came to those under law, to show the true standard of the law "every jot and tittle" also I would ask, what "honest" person would claim that they love God with "all" their heart, soul and might? All means "all" I have a few questions for anyone who claims to keep this commandment according to the written standard.

 

[George Muller]

reading about love here in the forums and how that is the commandant of God.. Reading about how love is THEE commandant, so to speak, yet I do read love here, I read distain, self-righteousness, arrogance, etc...
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Well I suggest that one should judge themselves by a standard, before they attempt to judge others by that standard. The same Paul that wrote these things also wrote that he could not come to certain believers in a humble way, but with a rod. Those who know Gods Love also know that it is very Godly to resist the proud. The truth spoken in love, hurts sometimes. And a sharp rebuke made in godliness is a act of love.

 

[George Muller]

So of course the commandments spoken of by John are not the law of Moses. They are those John defines in plain words.

So, are you saying that Jesus words in John does not encompass the 10 commandments? That we do not have t obey the 10?

Well in that we have Gods Love, shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, we as "believers" have the law written upon our hearts. But no John WAS NOT speaking of the law of Moses as I have already posted; John made clear the "commandments" to which he was speaking;

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (faith working by love) -obedience from the heart not the written code of the law.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Now the word translated commandments is "entole" or "entoles" which can be translated in the singular or plural based upon context and in large part the translator.
So because it says commandments, many have been taught to always think in terms of the law of Moses, but this is just wrong.

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you

Here Jesus says that "He" kept His Fathers commandments and in love we keep His commandment.

 

[George Muller]

So what point do you think you are making?

I am making no point at all.

Paul on the other hand is making a very clear point.

Paul states clearly that if people under grace present themselves as slaves of sin, IT LEADS TO DEATH!!!


JLB

Slavery to sin is through the law, "for the law is the strength of sin" Yes I agree you are not making any point at all.

You ignore what Paul taught us because your doctrine is man made.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Paul states we are not under the law. So there is no need for you to try and bring a divisive accusation against me. We are not under the law.

I know you remember how I fought to show that the law of Moses is no longer in effect.

I am saying that believers are under grace.

Paul teaches that we who are under grace, if we present our selves as slaves to sin, that behavior will lead to death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The Holy Spirit through Paul states this clearly.

You have been exposed by God's word as a person who promotes man's doctrine.

You are being divisive and arrogant. This following scripture IMO fits you perfectly -


9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.



You continue to strive against what the scriptures say and condemn those who show what the scriptures say.

Most of what you have to say is the doctrine of men.


JLB

Look JLB, I don't even understand what point you think you are making? Yes the law produces sinful desires and when a believer is set free from the law they are set free from sins power. Now as far as the context of your scripture, it proves my point:
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.(obedience of faith working by love)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Now as far as those who "strive" about the law- that's the "legalist" not those who teach grace.

 

[JLB]

Slavery to sin is through the law, "for the law is the strength of sin" Yes I agree you are not making any point at all.

You ignore what Paul taught us because your doctrine is man made.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Paul states we are not under the law. So there is no need for you to try and bring a divisive accusation against me. We are not under the law.

I know you remember how I fought to show that the law of Moses is no longer in effect.

I am saying that believers are under grace.

Paul teaches that we who are under grace, if we present our selves as slaves to sin, that behavior will lead to death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The Holy Spirit through Paul states this clearly.

You have been exposed by God's word as a person who promotes man's doctrine.

You are being divisive and arrogant. This following scripture IMO fits you perfectly -


9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.



You continue to strive against what the scriptures say and condemn those who show what the scriptures say.

Most of what you have to say is the doctrine of men.


JLB

Look JLB, I don't even understand what point you think you are making? Yes the law produces sinful desires and when a believer is set free from the law they are set free from sins power. Now as far as the context of your scripture, it proves my point:
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.(obedience of faith working by love)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Now as far as those who "strive" about the law- that's the "legalist" not those who teach grace.

I'm not talking about the law.

I am discussing those who are under grace.

This is what the scripture says -

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

George, those who are under grace are admonished not to sin.

Those who are under grace are admonished not to present themselves as slaves to sin.

Those who are under grace are told the if they present themselves as slaves to sin, it will lead to death.

That is what the scripture teaches. That is the point I am making.

A person who is under grace is warned not to present themselves as slaves to sin.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

So, are you saying that Jesus words in John does not encompass the 10 commandments? That we do not have t obey the 10?

I think it's not about obeying or not obeying. It's about why and how, we do that.

It's about what one thinks their salvation relies on. What is their faith in, for their salvation. That's what it all comes down to between law vs grace.
Our salvation has absolutely nothing to do with the keeping the Law and or doing good works.

An unbeliever can obey laws quite well and do very good works. But their works are not righteous or holy.
A believer can be in the same boat. If they think that by law keeping and good works they are in some way earning salvation or paying back a debt that they owe to God for saving them, then those works are not righteous or holy works.

Make believe that at on one of your jobs, the homeowner seeing that you need a truck, gives you a truck as a gift. And then you go around trying to find things to do for him out of a sense of obligation. Is that gift still a gift? How will that kind homeowner feel? You have robbed him of the joy of giving the gift, in a sense, his glory in giving.
But say you accept the truck in the spirit that it was given. On the way home you see someone walking along carrying 2x4s they just bought. They are needing help. You stop load the lumber, tell them to get in the back and don't bark. (sorry that's a cowboy joke, I couldn't resist). Anyway, now you have provided the "cup of water", so to speak. Not because you owned the man who gave you the truck but your heart is in the right place, you were simply passing on that goodness.
I know this example is certainly not exactly like our relationship with God. But frankly, it's hard for me to find any example that fits that relationship.

Every religion that I know of in the world says, earn your reward yourself. Christianity is the only religion where God Himself provided the Savior. I think sometimes that the world and other religions actually understand that better than Christians do sometimes.
The 10 Commandments are as hard as the stone they were written on. The heart that spoke the two Commandments of Love, was the heart of God. He said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. All we have to do is look at Jesus.
Tell me, not literally, did you come to Jesus by reading the 10 Commandments or did you come by hearing of God's goodness towards you.
Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The law was never intended to bring one to faith. Just the opposite. The law was to show that man cannot rely on his ability to obey, so that he would give up and just have faith (trust) in God's mercy and grace.

No I'm not preaching or teaching. Just sharing what I believe.