TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

Slavery to sin is through the law, "for the law is the strength of sin" Yes I agree you are not making any point at all.

You ignore what Paul taught us because your doctrine is man made.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Paul states we are not under the law. So there is no need for you to try and bring a divisive accusation against me. We are not under the law.

I know you remember how I fought to show that the law of Moses is no longer in effect.

I am saying that believers are under grace.

Paul teaches that we who are under grace, if we present our selves as slaves to sin, that behavior will lead to death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The Holy Spirit through Paul states this clearly.

You have been exposed by God's word as a person who promotes man's doctrine.

You are being divisive and arrogant. This following scripture IMO fits you perfectly -


9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.



You continue to strive against what the scriptures say and condemn those who show what the scriptures say.

Most of what you have to say is the doctrine of men.


JLB

Look JLB, I don't even understand what point you think you are making? Yes the law produces sinful desires and when a believer is set free from the law they are set free from sins power. Now as far as the context of your scripture, it proves my point:
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.(obedience of faith working by love)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Now as far as those who "strive" about the law- that's the "legalist" not those who teach grace.

I'm not talking about the law.

I am discussing those who are under grace.

This is what the scripture says -

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

George, those who are under grace are admonished not to sin.

Those who are under grace are admonished not to present themselves as slaves to sin.

Those who are under grace are told the if they present themselves as slaves to sin, it will lead to death.

That is what the scripture teaches. That is the point I am making.

A person who is under grace is warned not to present themselves as slaves to sin.


JLB

So who has suggested that its ok to sin? It seems a legalist cannot understand obedience of grace, I have promoted that a believer should walk in the Spirit, and that the Spirit should govern their behavior. Now those who are under the law, are in fact in the flesh and are in a condition of death, that Paul is speaking of. I suggest you stop trying to build a doctrine around one scripture that you "think" promotes a form of legalism, it does not, but in context it simply means that which Paul says in many places.

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[George Muller]

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey

Now lets put in context the "whom" that Paul is speaking?


one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by
one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Set free, from the law of sin and death)

By the way, this scripture also proves the error of "free-will" For it demands that one yield ones own "free-will" to the will of God. The servants of sin are those who do not yield to Gods righteousness, but go about in free-will to establish their own.

 

[Ryan]

You guys still at it eh? Blessed be the name of our Saviour Jesus, who will reign on high soon enough.

Back to your regularly scheduled program. totopic

 

[JLB]

So who has suggested that its ok to sin? It seems a legalist cannot understand obedience of grace, I have promoted that a believer should walk in the Spirit, and that the Spirit should govern their behavior. Now those who are under the law, are in fact in the flesh and are in a condition of death, that Paul is speaking of. I suggest you stop trying to build a doctrine around one scripture that you "think" promotes a form of legalism, it does not, but in context it simply means that which Paul says in many places.

There is no legalism in what this scriptures states.

It is an admonition to believers who are under grace.

Those under grace are warned not to presents themselves as a slave to sin. That is the "WHOM" to which Paul refers.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Every believer has a choice to make whether to be obedient unto righteousness, or to sin and become a slave to sin which leads to death.

Whatever sin that is, whether it is adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; if anyone who is under grace practices any on these sins and becomes a slave to any of these, it will lead to death, whereby they will not be allowed to enter the kingdom.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

So who has suggested that its ok to sin? It seems a legalist cannot understand obedience of grace, I have promoted that a believer should walk in the Spirit, and that the Spirit should govern their behavior. Now those who are under the law, are in fact in the flesh and are in a condition of death, that Paul is speaking of. I suggest you stop trying to build a doctrine around one scripture that you "think" promotes a form of legalism, it does not, but in context it simply means that which Paul says in many places.

There is no legalism in what this scriptures states.

It is an admonition to believers who are under grace.

Those under grace are warned not to presents themselves as a slave to sin. That is the "WHOM" to which Paul refers.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Every believer has a choice to make whether to be obedient unto righteousness, or to sin and become a slave to sin which leads to death.

Whatever sin that is, whether it is adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; if anyone who is under grace practices any on these sins and becomes a slave to any of these, it will lead to death, whereby they will not be allowed to enter the kingdom.


JLB

The law makes slaves to sin, and those who walk in grace walk in the Spirit, for it is the Spirit of Grace. And of course is Paul is speaking to all believers, and his point is that the flesh is a "slave'' of sin and the law holds the flesh in the condition of being a slave. Only when one is set free from the law are they set free from slavery to sin.

Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Until one has died to the law, they cannot be set free from sin, they are a slave according to the flesh (the old man)

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Grace is the power over sin, legalism is the slavery to sin.

 

[George Muller]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So those under law are "slaves" to sin and are in this condition of spiritual death, only in grace can one be delivered from sin and sins power.

 

[George Muller]

Whatever sin that is, whether it is adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; if anyone who is under grace practices any on these sins and becomes a slave to any of these, it will lead to death, whereby they will not be allowed to enter the kingdom.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Spirit=grace
Flesh=law

 

[TOG]

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Spirit=grace
Flesh=law

If, as you say "Flesh=law", then how do you explain what Paul says in Romans 7?

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14 ESV)
​

Then we also have what he wrote to the Galatians (a little more context this time).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Gal. 5:16-17 ESV)
​

The desires of the flesh are against the things of the Spirit. If we walk by the Spirit, then we will not desire the things of the flesh, but rather spiritual things which, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, would include the law.

Here's something else Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (Rom. 8:7 ESV)
​

It is the mind set on the flesh that does not submit to God's law. It seems logical to me to conclude from this that the mind set on the Spirit can and does submit to God's law.

It looks to me like Scripture doesn't support your view that "Flesh=law".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Spirit=grace
Flesh=law

If, as you say "Flesh=law", then how do you explain what Paul says in Romans 7?

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14 ESV)
​

Then we also have what he wrote to the Galatians (a little more context this time).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Gal. 5:16-17 ESV)
​

The desires of the flesh are against the things of the Spirit. If we walk by the Spirit, then we will not desire the things of the flesh, but rather spiritual things which, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, would include the law.

Here's something else Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (Rom. 8:7 ESV)
​

It is the mind set on the flesh that does not submit to God's law. It seems logical to me to conclude from this that the mind set on the Spirit can and does submit to God's law.

It looks to me like Scripture doesn't support your view that "Flesh=law".

George Muller doesn't understand the scriptures that he shares somehow proving how bad 'law' is to believers are addressed to natural, unconverted people, not the people of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ALL means ALL and if anyone claims to be under any part of the law, they must keep it ALL.

Any part? Does that include these two commandments?

you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5 ESV)
​

​

Muller says you're actually causing us to NOT love your neighbor and God all the more by posting these scriptures.
​

For some reason it's okay for the authors of the NT to tell us to do these lawful commands, and as a result bring us into cursed legalism and the bondage of the flesh, but forbidden for the rest of us to dare suggest that we must do these things for fear of leading others into the same bondage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So those under law are "slaves" to sin and are in this condition of spiritual death, only in grace can one be delivered from sin and sins power.

Listen carefully to your own scriptural quote, George...

"But now we are delivered from the law..."

The law can't do to believers what you are so sure it can. Not delivered from the requirements of the (moral) law, but delivered from the power of the law to condemn and keep us locked in sin, the law acting as a marriage license between natural man and sin, not spiritual man and sin. Spiritual man is married to Christ, and the contract that holds him in marital union with new husband Christ is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...it is very Godly to resist the proud.

In regard to holiness, the proud one is the one who thinks he is above everybody else and does not sin like others, and walks in spiritual powers high and above the common man because they are so obedient and plugged into God, looking down on others--the attitude of the Pharisees.

The truth spoken in love, hurts sometimes. And a sharp rebuke made in godliness is a act of love.

The key parts being the emboldened parts.

Too many people justify their attacks on other believers while chanting the "I'm only doing this in love" mantra. But correction without love (insults, shaming, for example) is obviously not 'doing this in love and godliness'.

Jesus said trees are known by their fruit. I know who is officially sent from God to speak and who is not by whether they have the godly character traits of God as seen in the fruit of the Spirit, and not just the knowledge of God. Knowledge is NOT how one discerns the true prophet and teacher of God sent to speak to his people. But that is what so many think in the church while these self-appointed leaders butt and trample the sheep and muddy up their drinking water, and the sheep blindly let them. Not this sheep.

We are not to treat the sheep like the wolves. But so many do that in the name of "I'm doing this in the name of love" thinking they are doing a service to God and the truth.

 

[Deborah13]

The law can't do to believers what you are so sure it can.

Why are you so sure it can't?

 

[George Muller]

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Spirit=grace
Flesh=law

If, as you say "Flesh=law", then how do you explain what Paul says in Romans 7?

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14 ESV)
​

Then we also have what he wrote to the Galatians (a little more context this time).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Gal. 5:16-17 ESV)
​

The desires of the flesh are against the things of the Spirit. If we walk by the Spirit, then we will not desire the things of the flesh, but rather spiritual things which, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, would include the law.

Here's something else Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (Rom. 8:7 ESV)
​

It is the mind set on the flesh that does not submit to God's law. It seems logical to me to conclude from this that the mind set on the Spirit can and does submit to God's law.

It looks to me like Scripture doesn't support your view that "Flesh=law".

well lets look at the context of what Paul Wrote in Romans 7; Take a scripture out of its context and one is left with a "con".
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Anyone who claims they are working righteousness by the Law, is just a modern day Pharisee.

The Point Paul makes here and in the book of Gal. is that no man can work holiness or righteousness by the flesh, all those who walk in the flesh, no matter how religious they may "think" they are in a condition of spiritual death. Only the Spirit of God working in and through a believer can manifest any acceptable form of godliness.

 

[George Muller]

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Spirit=grace
Flesh=law

If, as you say "Flesh=law", then how do you explain what Paul says in Romans 7?

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:14 ESV)
​

Then we also have what he wrote to the Galatians (a little more context this time).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Gal. 5:16-17 ESV)
​

The desires of the flesh are against the things of the Spirit. If we walk by the Spirit, then we will not desire the things of the flesh, but rather spiritual things which, according to Paul's letter to the Romans, would include the law.

Here's something else Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (Rom. 8:7 ESV)
​

It is the mind set on the flesh that does not submit to God's law. It seems logical to me to conclude from this that the mind set on the Spirit can and does submit to God's law.

It looks to me like Scripture doesn't support your view that "Flesh=law".

George Muller doesn't understand the scriptures that he shares somehow proving how bad 'law' is to believers are addressed to natural, unconverted people, not the people of God.

:toofunny Are you being sincere?:
Ga 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[George Muller]

In regard to holiness, the proud one is the one who thinks he is above everybody else and does not sin like others, and walks in spiritual powers high and above the common man because they are so obedient and plugged into God, looking down on others--the attitude of the Pharisees.

That sounds like a charge they made against the Lord Himself, I accept this charge and suffer being spoken evil of for righteousness sake, thank you:p

Ga 1:10 ¶ For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 

[George Muller]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So those under law are "slaves" to sin and are in this condition of spiritual death, only in grace can one be delivered from sin and sins power.

Listen carefully to your own scriptural quote, George...

"But now we are delivered from the law..."

The law can't do to believers what you are so sure it can. Not delivered from the requirements of the (moral) law, but delivered from the power of the law to condemn and keep us locked in sin, the law acting as a marriage license between natural man and sin, not spiritual man and sin. Spiritual man is married to Christ, and the contract that holds him in marital union with new husband Christ is the Holy Spirit.

That does not even make biblical sense? Paul spends most of his epistles warning against turning from grace to law, because the law is not of faith and is the strength of sin. Think about how unbiblical your statement is as one reads the book of Gal. or 2 Cor 3?

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You must be getting really desperate to even attempt to try and make such a silly point?

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

 

[TOG]

well lets look at the context of what Paul Wrote in Romans 7

Yes, before I answer any individual points, let's take a close look at the context, starting at the beginning of chapter 7.

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law... (Rom. 7:1 ESV)
​

Everything Paul says about the law in his letter to the Roman Christians was directed toward people who knew the law. Do you know the law, George Muller? Have you studied it? I'm not asking whether you have read it once or twice in a "read the bible in a year" type program. I'm asking if you've actually sat down with a concordance and commentaries from different sources and looked at it with and open mind to find out the truth about what the law is, what it says, what it's purpose is and how it applies to us today. Have you ever done that? If you haven't, then you can't really say that you "know the law", can you? And if you don't "know the law", then you have no business trying to interpret Romans chapter 7 and trying to explain it to you won't work, since a knowledge of the law is necessary to understand it properly.

I have been studying the law for around 8 years now. I have read commentaries from a number of different sources, both Christian and Messianic Jewish sources. I have in this time learned not only what the law actually says, but also what rabbis, both Messianic and Orthodox have to say about it, as well as what both modern and ancient (first and second centuries) Christian theologians and church fathers had to say about it. I can explain Romans 7 to you, but will you be able to understand it? Can you honestly say that you "know the law"?

 

[JLB]

So who has suggested that its ok to sin? It seems a legalist cannot understand obedience of grace, I have promoted that a believer should walk in the Spirit, and that the Spirit should govern their behavior. Now those who are under the law, are in fact in the flesh and are in a condition of death, that Paul is speaking of. I suggest you stop trying to build a doctrine around one scripture that you "think" promotes a form of legalism, it does not, but in context it simply means that which Paul says in many places.

There is no legalism in what this scriptures states.

It is an admonition to believers who are under grace.

Those under grace are warned not to presents themselves as a slave to sin. That is the "WHOM" to which Paul refers.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Every believer has a choice to make whether to be obedient unto righteousness, or to sin and become a slave to sin which leads to death.

Whatever sin that is, whether it is adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; if anyone who is under grace practices any on these sins and becomes a slave to any of these, it will lead to death, whereby they will not be allowed to enter the kingdom.


JLB

The law makes slaves to sin, and those who walk in grace walk in the Spirit, for it is the Spirit of Grace. And of course is Paul is speaking to all believers, and his point is that the flesh is a "slave'' of sin and the law holds the flesh in the condition of being a slave. Only when one is set free from the law are they set free from slavery to sin.

Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Until one has died to the law, they cannot be set free from sin, they are a slave according to the flesh (the old man)

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Grace is the power over sin, legalism is the slavery to sin.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Now that we are under grace and not under the law, shall we sin?


What is your answer to people who are under grace?

Is it ok for them to sin?

What are the consequences of a person who is under grace, that becomes a slave to sin.

What would you yourself tell a new Christian, who knows nothing about the law of Moses, and it came to your attention that this person who was a new Christian, was having an adulterous affair in your Church, and the members came to you because they had warned this person several times about the sin of adultery.

What would you tell this person that the consequences of their actions would be in they continued in the sin of adultery.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Based on the above mentioned scripture that Paul is speaking to people under grace, he warns them if they present themselves to be a slave of sin, it will lead to death.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So those under law are "slaves" to sin and are in this condition of spiritual death, only in grace can one be delivered from sin and sins power.

Listen carefully to your own scriptural quote, George...

"But now we are delivered from the law..."

The law can't do to believers what you are so sure it can. Not delivered from the requirements of the (moral) law, but delivered from the power of the law to condemn and keep us locked in sin, the law acting as a marriage license between natural man and sin, not spiritual man and sin. Spiritual man is married to Christ, and the contract that holds him in marital union with new husband Christ is the Holy Spirit.

That does not even make biblical sense? Paul spends most of his epistles warning against turning from grace to law, because the law is not of faith and is the strength of sin. Think about how unbiblical your statement is as one reads the book of Gal. or 2 Cor 3?

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You must be getting really desperate to even attempt to try and make such a silly point?

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

Just knowing what the Word says and then doing it is not categorically and without exception trying to be justified by the law. If it is then James and Paul taught the churches to try to be justified by the law. There's no escaping that if your doctrine is true.

So, the question is, why would Paul be in opposition to his own message of avoiding the false gospel of trying to be justified by works required by the law (ie, do not lie, do not steal, etc.) by teaching the churches to do those things? He has very stern warnings for those who do that. But according to you, since he explains what the churches should be obedient to do (because, as you say, they are spiritually immature) he is guilty of the very thing he is fighting against in the church and under the condemnation he says those who do that are under.