TRUE HOLINESS

[Deborah13]

... as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

He also divides the tares from the wheat. There are only two groups, believers and unbelievers.

There have always been only two groups. A goat may think he's a sheep but he is not he's a goat.

There is His Church and the world. That's it. His sheep are His, the goats are ALL the rest.

 

[JLB]

the goats are ALL the rest.

All the rest can be defined as -

Those who totally reject the Gospel.

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, but don't do what He says.

Those who believe Jesus is Lord but turn away to follow other gods.

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, yet live a lifestyle of practicing adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, but turn back to the law.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, but turn back to the law.

?? What does that mean?

 

[JLB]

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, but turn back to the law.

?? What does that mean?

Before I start answering more questions from you, please tell me if you agree with the three scriptures that I answered your primary question with.

Do you believe one can loose their salvation through disobedience?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

real truth about him

Do you believe one can loose their salvation through disobedience? If they were truly saved, with saving faith. And if not why?

Well, let's look at this passage in Hebrews:

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. [...] 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation." (Hebrews 6:4-6,9 NIV)

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Then the author says this to this saved audience:

"10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NIV)

The author commends these saved people for their work and love for the people of God, and how that work and love is continuing. He exhorts them to continue that obedience and not become lazy so that through the faith and patience that work and love represents they may inherit the promise of salvation. The danger being if they stop having faith (as evidenced by the end of their diligent obedience) they will NOT inherit the promise of salvation.

It's seems pretty clear from this passage that genuinely saved people who do not continue in their faith, as evidenced by the end of their obedience, will not inherit salvation. The author is basically saying what James says--that the 'faith' that does not work (can not be seen in what it does) is the 'faith' that can not save. Elsewhere in Hebrews, the author says "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14 NIV). And from the context we see the holiness being spoken of is obedience to God, without which no one will see the Lord. Jesus also said it is the foolish builder who builds on the sands of disobedience that will be destroyed, not saved in the Judgment (Matthew 7:26 NIV). This is not works justification. This is about truly having the faith that justifies, because the faith that justifies can, and must, be seen in what it does (aka holiness) for that faith to save.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The fact that love fulfills the law does not mean they are promoting the law of moses. But love apart from the written code is what the NEW Covenant teaches.

Let's test your doctrine against the Bible:

"8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. " (James 2:8-9 NASB)

Now I know that no NT author promotes the WAY of the law to serve God (the human effort of right doing to earn justification), but it's clear they do indeed promote the fulfilling of the actual law of Moses through faith in Christ. And again I point out to you in this passage that we see the written code does indeed judge and convict, contrary to your claim that it can not.

Paul also makes it very clear that he promotes the very the law of Moses through love:

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB)

I see no "love apart from the written code" here.

 

[Deborah13]

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, but don't do what He says.

Galatians 5:21 KJV
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you saying that a saved person that has a problem with say envy or anger, will not be saved in the end? How about a gossips (backbiters)?

1 Corinthians 6 KJV
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

[oh yeah, I forgot, all you guys stopped sinning, so I don't need to say v18]

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Poor Paul, he sure had his handful with the saved, lost, saved, lost, yo yo Christians !!
That church at Corinth was a big Gentile mess. Paul, even threw that one guy out, gave him over to satan to save his soul, and then he was welcomed back.
Do you think Paul was just hoping that guy would repent, or do think he knew? At any rate Paul never unsaved that guy. Never said he wasn't saved.
Unbelievable.
You remember David, what did God do? Did He unsave him, did He take the Holy Spirit away from him? I think He sent Nathan to him. David paid a heavy price for his sin, sin has consequences. And David actually really was under the Law, being a Hebrew. But David, by grace through faith was saved.
Oh yeah, what about those pastors, that don't do so well with the Gospel message? Their works all brunt up, but they're are still saved. And yet there people condemning lay people as false prophets (antichristos). There are people who would condemn to hell, the very people who sat under the pastor who messed up the message. He doesn't lose his life but they do.

 

[George Muller]

But one cannot walk in the Spirit until they are set-free from the law, by the grace of Christ. Now what Paul is saying is that we are "New Creations" we have died to the "old man" and must walk in the truth of Christ to walk in "life".

Would you say, that "walking in the Spirit" is the process of renewing one's mind to come into agreement with the Spirit? And that sanctification, for salvation is a done deal? And that there are believers who do not KNOW that they are justified and sanctified by His righteousness and His holiness?

I would say in part, the "renewing" is to bring the "old" carnal mind into agreement with the truth of who we are as "New" Spiritual Creations. All by faith in the Word, not the letter but the Spirit. Legalism works against the "renewed" mind, for legalism is the striving of mans religion to justify the flesh. "walking in the Spirit" is to see the flesh judged with Christ and as the object to be put to death by His Cross as one walks in the Spirit, by faith.

 

[George Muller]

The fact that love fulfills the law does not mean they are promoting the law of moses. But love apart from the written code is what the NEW Covenant teaches.

Let's test your doctrine against the Bible:

"8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. " (James 2:8-9 NASB)

Now I know that no NT author promotes the WAY of the law to serve God (the human effort of right doing to earn justification), but it's clear they do indeed promote the fulfilling of the actual law of Moses through faith in Christ. And again I point out to you in this passage that we see the written code does indeed judge and convict, contrary to your claim that it can not.

Paul also makes it very clear that he promotes the very the law of Moses through love:

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB)

I see no "love apart from the written code" here.

Not sure what point you are trying make? Legalism-law is death, love-Spirit is life. The letter kills the Spirit gives life. What Paul and James are doing is bringing those who where under law into the Spirit, using the law as a witness. Now the FACT that we "believers" have been set-free from the law of Moses, cannot be debated. So then Believers are not under the "written code" but under the Commandment of Christ -The Royal Law-Love. This is very simple only the religious and self-righteous cannot understand because they are in fact in a condition of spiritual blindness, by the ministry of death and condemnation.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[George Muller]

You would be better served to go back into the book of James and try to make a biblical point there.

I just checked your bio to see if a pastor, or someone serving in some kind of official capacity in the church was mocking and shaming me because of my doctrine. Lol's were not given to mock other people because of what they believe.

It would be impossible for me to sit under a teacher who did that to me...and I would have every Biblical right and responsibility not to, according to Jesus.

Well Jethro, It is my calling to run the legalist out of the Lords church, not make them comfortable and to allow them to promote doctrines of error. Lets be honest, if you where to come into a grace group you would attempt to overturn the truth through your legalist doctrines. Of course I would drive you from the flock, if you in any way attempted to teach the things you promote on this forum? A little ridicule of ones doctrines will seem a small thing to those who pervert the gospel, on judgment Day. For the wrath of God will be against those who cause others to stumble.

George, when a person thinks that the Law of sin and death of Romans 8 is the 10 commandments, they definatly don't know the law, and have no buisness trying to teach what Romans 7 means.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


The law of sin and death was seen in the garden when death entered to all men because of Adams sin of disobedience/unbelief.

The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

JLB

of course it is;
Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

For one to try to deny this clear and evident truth, shows how "free-will" is a blinding and prideful religion.

 

[George Muller]

Look TOG, I know very well what and why Paul made this statement and the point he was making. Now if you have a point about the scriptures please just make your point and keep your boasting about "knowing the law" to yourself. Only those who know Grace and teach the grace of God, uphold the true standard and purpose of the law.

I do not boast about my knowledge of the law. I was merely answering a question before you asked it. I knew that if I asked you how much you know about the law, you wouldn't answer, but just come right back and ask me what I know. Since you didn't answer the question, I'm going to presume that the answer is "no".

You ask me to make a point about Scriputre. I made a point in the post you quoted, but you totally missed it. I don't suppose making any more points will do any good.

I seen no point, but only that you attempted to take a scripture out of its context. And indeed you seemed to boast in your knowledge of the law, now I boast in nothing but in Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, and I account that mans knowledge and works of law are but "dung". So if you have point? Make it.

 

[George Muller]

Those who believe Jesus is Lord, but don't do what He says.

Galatians 5:21 KJV
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you saying that a saved person that has a problem with say envy or anger, will not be saved in the end? How about a gossips (backbiters)?

1 Corinthians 6 KJV
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

[oh yeah, I forgot, all you guys stopped sinning, so I don't need to say v18]

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Poor Paul, he sure had his handful with the saved, lost, saved, lost, yo yo Christians !!
That church at Corinth was a big Gentile mess. Paul, even threw that one guy out, gave him over to satan to save his soul, and then he was welcomed back.
Do you think Paul was just hoping that guy would repent, or do think he knew? At any rate Paul never unsaved that guy. Never said he wasn't saved.
Unbelievable.
You remember David, what did God do? Did He unsave him, did He take the Holy Spirit away from him? I think He sent Nathan to him. David paid a heavy price for his sin, sin has consequences. And David actually really was under the Law, being a Hebrew. But David, by grace through faith was saved.
Oh yeah, what about those pastors, that don't do so well with the Gospel message? Their works all brunt up, but they're are still saved. And yet there people condemning lay people as false prophets (antichristos). There are people who would condemn to hell, the very people who sat under the pastor who messed up the message. He doesn't lose his life but they do.

I already ask JLB about how well he keeps this standard that he attempts to judge others by? I got some conflicting responses, first he claimed he "never" did any of these things, then he changed the standard to he did not "practice" any of these things. I ask him to define "practice" so that others would be granted the same standard that he allowed for himself. He would not define the term. As always those who look to judge and condemn others, will through word games, find a place of mercy for themselves, excuse away their own flesh and seek to judge others by a standard they do not keep. This is why the "Royal Law" is never kept by legalist, they will not admit their own sinful flesh, but seek to judge and condemn others by the "letter" of the scriptures, whether Old or New. These people must be purged from the church, the leven of hypocrisy must always be purged first.

 

[JLB]

first he claimed he "never" did any of these things,

Which things.

You accuse me of sinning at things.

Then you say those who are under grace walk in the Spirit and are not under the law.

Which is it.

If you say I sin, what sin do you accuse me of George.

I don't practice any sin.

I don't do any of the sins of Galatians 5.

What I am guilty of is not Loving God the way He deserves.

What I am guilty of is not loving others the way God does.

Therefore I am guilty of all the whole law and deserve eternal condemnation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Well Jethro, It is my calling to run the legalist out of the Lords church, not make them comfortable and to allow them to promote doctrines of error. Lets be honest, if you where to come into a grace group you would attempt to overturn the truth through your legalist doctrines. Of course I would drive you from the flock, if you in any way attempted to teach the things you promote on this forum? A little ridicule of ones doctrines will seem a small thing to those who pervert the gospel, on judgment Day. For the wrath of God will be against those who cause others to stumble.

George, when a person thinks that the Law of sin and death of Romans 8 is the 10 commandments, they definatly don't know the law, and have no buisness trying to teach what Romans 7 means.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


The law of sin and death was seen in the garden when death entered to all men because of Adams sin of disobedience/unbelief.

The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

JLB

of course it is;
Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

For one to try to deny this clear and evident truth, shows how "free-will" is a blinding and prideful religion.

The sin that spread to all humans was do not eat of the tree...

He disobeyed God's Voice.

This was not written and engraved on stones.

The law of sin and death was seen in the garden.

You are confusing the law of sin and death with the law of Moses.

Next I guess you will try to tell us the law of gravity is also the ten commandments.

The law of sin and death is what Lucifer violated that got him thrown out of heaven.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Galatians 5:21 KJV 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Are you saying that a saved person that has a problem with say envy or anger, will not be saved in the end? How about a gossips (backbiters)?

Galatians 5 was written by the Apostle Paul. Not me.

When I read what is written here by Paul, I see that the Holy Spirit says through Paul that drunkenness is right there next to murder.

Those that practice drunkenness as well as those who are murderers will not enter the kingdom.

You would have to define "having a problem with", since that is not listed here.

"Having a problem with" could mean -

• A new Christian that is in the process of transformation.

• A person who struggles with a certain sin, who repents and stops the sin for a while then falls back into it because...

• A person who goes for help with a certain sin and trying to get free but has not yet and the die before they are delivered.

I don't really know what you mean by "having a problem with".

This term sounds like to me the person is wanting to be free, and is trying...

I would say that a person who stands before the Lord on judgement day and says Lord I just had a problem with murdering people, I just could seem to stop, probably won't do very well.

I try to point people to what the scripture says, rather than "explaining" what Paul meant.

Then a person can choose for themselves what to believe or not to believe.

How would you correct a person who constantly back bites and gossips about others in a church so that they constantly stir up strife.

What scripture would you use to correct them?

What scripture would you use to warn them of the punishment that awaits them them if they don't repent?


JLB

 

[TOG]

I seen no point, but only that you attempted to take a scripture out of its context. And indeed you seemed to boast in your knowledge of the law, now I boast in nothing but in Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, and I account that mans knowledge and works of law are but "dung". So if you have point? Make it.

I don't know if it will do any good, but let me try to explain the point I was making with an analogy. We've all been to school, so this should be easy to understand...

Before you learned algebra, you had to learn how to multiply and divide. Before you learned multiplication and division, you had to learn how to add and subtract. Before you learned addition and subtraction, you had to learn how to count. If a person never learns how to count, you can still try to explain algebra to him, and he may even think he understands it, but he will never truly comprehend what algebra is about and how to use it. You can't start with something as advanced as algebra without first learning the basics. You have to learn things in the right order if you are going to truly understand them. This applies to areas other than math. You have to learn the alphabet before you can write a novel. You have to learn basic mechanics before you can design a space station. You have to walk before you can run.

The same applies to the Bible. You can't start with the most advanced things in Scripture. You have to start with the basics. The foundation on which the rest of the Bible is built is the law (i.e. the books of Moses). If you don't understand the basics of the law, then you won't properly understand the advanced things Paul writes about.

Oh... BTW... I looked back at our previous posts, and you were the one that posted Gal. 5:16 without any context at all. I was attempting to put it in context with the rest of what Paul wrote.

 

[TOG]

This is the third time I try to reply to this post. It always tells me "Your token has expired" when I try to post. I hope it works this time.

I probably, mostly agree with you. The law of sin and death, which is a law of God, just like the law of gravity is a law of God, and the law of sowing and reaping is a law of God.

Since God created everything, the laws you mention could each be considered a law of God. But when I talk about the law of God, I'm talking about the law as we see it in the books of Moses. We have a tendency to talk about the "Old Covenant" and the "New Covenant", as if there were only two. The fact is that God has made at least 5 covenants with His people.

1. The covenant with Noah
2. The covenant with Abraham
3. The covenant on Mt. Sinai (most often called "the law" or "the Old Covenant")
4. The covenant with David
5. the New Covenant

Speaking of the relationship between the covenant with Abraham and the covenant on Mt. Sinai, Paul writes:

This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. (Gal. 3:17 ESV)
​

I believe that this applies not only in this case, but to all the covenants. A covenant that God has made can never be nullified, even by another covenant made by God. All of the covenants contain certain promises and since God will never go back on His word, those promises are still in effect. Most of the covenants also have certain requirements that we are to obey, and many of the promises are conditional on our obedience to those requirements. Since God's standard of righteousness doesn't change, those requirements are also still in full effect.

 

[JLB]

Since God's standard of righteousness doesn't change, those requirements are also still in full effect.

What do you consider as God's standard of righteousness according to the scriptures.

Keeping the Law.

Righteousness apart from the law. Which is faith.

Please explain what you mean.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Hebrews 6
I agree they are most definitely saved people. So a most definitely saved person, IF they were to lose their salvation, they are lost forever. No second chances.
Which was my point really. Once someone is saved by God, they are saved. If they did fall away, they cannot be saved again. NO more repentance. Christ Crucified Once.
Thus ONE Time, that's all the chance's anyone gets.
There is no such thing as saved, lost, saved, lost.....

Would you agree?

 

[farouk]

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Hebrews 6
I agree they are most definitely saved people. So a most definitely saved person, IF they were to lose their salvation, they are lost forever. No second chances.
Which was my point really. Once someone is saved by God, they are saved. If they did fall away, they cannot be saved again. NO more repentance. Christ Crucified Once.
Thus ONE Time, that's all the chance's anyone gets.
There is no such thing as saved, lost, saved, lost.....

Would you agree?

Rather than 'saved again', never saved in the first place...