TRUE HOLINESS

[Deborah13]

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Hebrews 6
I agree they are most definitely saved people. So a most definitely saved person, IF they were to lose their salvation, they are lost forever. No second chances.
Which was my point really. Once someone is saved by God, they are saved. If they did fall away, they cannot be saved again. NO more repentance. Christ Crucified Once.
Thus ONE Time, that's all the chance's anyone gets.
There is no such thing as saved, lost, saved, lost.....

Would you agree?

Rather than 'saved again', never saved in the first place...

We are addressing a specific passage, Hebrews 6.
What does it say to you? Where these saved people? From this scripture can a person be saved more than once?

 

[farouk]

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Hebrews 6
I agree they are most definitely saved people. So a most definitely saved person, IF they were to lose their salvation, they are lost forever. No second chances.
Which was my point really. Once someone is saved by God, they are saved. If they did fall away, they cannot be saved again. NO more repentance. Christ Crucified Once.
Thus ONE Time, that's all the chance's anyone gets.
There is no such thing as saved, lost, saved, lost.....

Would you agree?

Rather than 'saved again', never saved in the first place...

We are addressing a specific passage, Hebrews 6.
What does it say to you? Where these saved people? From this scripture can a person be saved more than once?

@Deborah13 :

The idea of 'saved more than once' makes no Scriptural sense.

I think the key is something along the lines of 2 Timothy 2.19 (both parts of the verse):

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

In other words, Scripture doesn't support the idea that someone who evidently continues in sin and unbelief is entitled to call him- or herself a Christian.

Neither does Scripture support the idea of lost salvation. It would be more accurate to speak of salvation not attained.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Hebrews 6
I agree they are most definitely saved people. So a most definitely saved person, IF they were to lose their salvation, they are lost forever. No second chances.
Which was my point really. Once someone is saved by God, they are saved. If they did fall away, they cannot be saved again. NO more repentance. Christ Crucified Once.
Thus ONE Time, that's all the chance's anyone gets.
There is no such thing as saved, lost, saved, lost.....

Would you agree?

Yep. That's what Hebrews teaches.

The problem is we mere mortals think we can decide when God has not allowed someone to re-repent. We look at sin. God looks at the reason for sin.

Just because we had a bad hair day in Christ doesn't mean we've categorically sinned unto death and can't repent, but that is the way so many Christians view it. I think it is when sin represents a knowing and willing rejection of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins that they once accepted, that is when it is impossible to repent and even then, IMO, it is God who decides when a person has crossed the line of no return.

 

[TOG]

Since God's standard of righteousness doesn't change, those requirements are also still in full effect.

What do you consider as God's standard of righteousness according to the scriptures.

Keeping the Law.

Righteousness apart from the law. Which is faith.

Please explain what you mean.


JLB

I'm using the term "righteousness" here pretty much according to it's dictionary definition, which is "the state or quality of being righteous". The word "righteous" is defined as "acting in an upright, moral way; virtuous". When I say "God's standard of righteousness", I'm referring to His definition of what is upright, moral and virtuous behavior. Such behavior is defined by the law.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4 KJV)
​

God doesn't change and His standards don't change. If He declared something to be sinful 3500 years ago, then it's still sinful today. If He declared something to be righteous 3500 years ago, it's still righteous today. That's what I mean when I say "God's standard of righteousness doesn't change".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rather than 'saved again', never saved in the first place...

We are addressing a specific passage, Hebrews 6.
What does it say to you? Where these saved people? From this scripture can a person be saved more than once?

@Deborah13 :

The idea of 'saved more than once' makes no Scriptural sense.

I agree. That's what Hebrews teaches...

"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance..." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

This says to me 1) it's possible to fall from a repentant, saved state, and 2) it's impossible to return to that state. Repentance being better understood in this context as that of a change of mind about Christ and the gospel resulting in the promise of salvation, not just a practical, outward, behavioral repentance, although that certainly would follow a change of mind about Christ and the gospel.

 

[Deborah13]

I see no "love apart from the written code" here.

I noticed that there are only two laws and neither one speaks negatively to us. We actually have to twist it around to make it speak negativism.

In the Law of Moses there are 613, laws given by God which are the details of the 10, mostly. Now some of them are speak positive and some negative. And that's according to the Jews, they say that.

But Jesus spoke two, positive, uplifting, edifying commandments, that we and James call the Royal ones.

I not making any Secret or Concealed statement, with any underlining motive or point. This is just an observation!!

 

[Deborah13]

Neither does Scripture support the idea of lost salvation. It would be more accurate to speak of salvation not attained.

Do you have something you can add about Hebrews 6?

Seems pretty obvious to me, Jethro, and Charles Spurgeon, that these people were most definitely saved.

 

[Deborah13]

Don't you agree that we can see from these passages that the audience the author is addressing is saved? I think that much is clear.

Hebrews 6
I agree they are most definitely saved people. So a most definitely saved person, IF they were to lose their salvation, they are lost forever. No second chances.
Which was my point really. Once someone is saved by God, they are saved. If they did fall away, they cannot be saved again. NO more repentance. Christ Crucified Once.
Thus ONE Time, that's all the chance's anyone gets.
There is no such thing as saved, lost, saved, lost.....

Would you agree?

Yep. That's what Hebrews teaches.

The problem is we mere mortals think we can decide when God has not allowed someone to re-repent. We look at sin. God looks at the reason for sin.

Just because we had a bad hair day in Christ doesn't mean we've categorically sinned unto death and can't repent, but that is the way so many Christians view it. I think it is when sin represents a knowing and willing rejection of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins that they once accepted, that is when it is impossible to repent and even then, IMO, it is God who decides when a person has crossed the line of no return.

Well, if I understood you correctly I agree with everything that you have said.

 

[JLB]

Since God's standard of righteousness doesn't change, those requirements are also still in full effect.

What do you consider as God's standard of righteousness according to the scriptures.

Keeping the Law.

Righteousness apart from the law. Which is faith.

Please explain what you mean.


JLB

I'm using the term "righteousness" here pretty much according to it's dictionary definition, which is "the state or quality of being righteous". The word "righteous" is defined as "acting in an upright, moral way; virtuous". When I say "God's standard of righteousness", I'm referring to His definition of what is upright, moral and virtuous behavior. Such behavior is defined by the law.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4 KJV)
​

God doesn't change and His standards don't change. If He declared something to be sinful 3500 years ago, then it's still sinful today. If He declared something to be righteous 3500 years ago, it's still righteous today. That's what I mean when I say "God's standard of righteousness doesn't change".

So if Abraham walked in righteousness apart from the law 3500 years ago, then walking in righteousness apart from the law today in still a valid standard today.

JLB

 

[TOG]

So if Abraham walked in righteousness apart from the law 3500 years ago, then walking in righteousness apart from the law today in still a valid standard today. JLB

I'm not sure what you're getting at. It seems to me that if, as I said, God's standard of righteousness hasn't changed in the 3500 or so years since Moses' time, then it's logical to assume that it hadn't changed for the previous 400 or so years since Abraham. The law, as we know it today, wasn't given in a written form until about 3500 years ago, but God's standard has always been the same.

 

[farouk]

Neither does Scripture support the idea of lost salvation. It would be more accurate to speak of salvation not attained.

Do you have something you can add about Hebrews 6?

Seems pretty obvious to me, Jethro, and Charles Spurgeon, that these people were most definitely saved.

@Deborah13 :

I think the question revolves around what 'tasting of the heavenly gift' means.

Rather than people building a whole theology around the possibility of losing one's salvation, in the light of such a phrase in Hebrews 6, I think a prior question to be asked can usefully be: 'What are the Scriptural characteristics of those who are 'saved', 'born again', 'redeemed', etc.?

Regarding those whose hearts are seen by God as those as apostates, a good definition is: those who have light but not life.

One can receive a measure of light; Satan Himself is an angel of light.

Whether a person really is an apostate is a matter first and foremost for God to judge. 2 Timothy 2.19 But we do have a lot of Scriptural evidence to describe the life and behavior of those who are truly saved, truly born again.

This would be my approach, I think.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Whether a person really is an apostate is a matter first and foremost for God to judge. 2 Timothy 2.19 But we do have a lot of Scriptural evidence to describe the life and behavior of those who are truly saved, truly born again.

That is a great scripture of faith.

And I believe a correct attitude to have towards others who profess to be Christians. We are not to judge another person's salvation.
I think the best thing we can do as Christians is to remind them who they are in Christ and what a wonderful Lord we have. You know how Paul said those under the Law of works would be moved to jealousy. I was thinking about that. What is that they would be jealous of? Our liberty, in Christ. The love we share with the Father and each other. Obeying the Lord simply out of a loving relationship, without the need of the written Law. All things we receive from the Savior and the Father, that frees us from the burden of justification by the Law.

 

[JLB]

So if Abraham walked in righteousness apart from the law 3500 years ago, then walking in righteousness apart from the law today in still a valid standard today. JLB

I'm not sure what you're getting at. It seems to me that if, as I said, God's standard of righteousness hasn't changed in the 3500 or so years since Moses' time, then it's logical to assume that it hadn't changed for the previous 400 or so years since Abraham. The law, as we know it today, wasn't given in a written form until about 3500 years ago, but God's standard has always been the same.

At this point I would say you don't seem to know what you are talking about, since you keep mentioning Moses.

The standard of righteous is defined by the law of sin and death in the garden.

The standard of righteousness has nothing to do with the law of Moses.

The standard of righteousness is: OBEDIENCE

Adam disobeyed God and brought death to all mankind.

Abraham obeyed His Voice.

The obedience of faith is the standard of righteousness that was established from the beginning.


JLB

 

[TOG]

The standard of righteousness is: OBEDIENCE

Obedience to what? It's easy to talk about "obedience" without any further explanation or "obedience of faith" without actually defining what that means. The verb "obey" always has an object. I've defined what it is that I think we should obey. If you disagree, can you give us a definition of what is to be obeyed?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Neither does Scripture support the idea of lost salvation. It would be more accurate to speak of salvation not attained.

Do you have something you can add about Hebrews 6?

Seems pretty obvious to me, Jethro, and Charles Spurgeon, that these people were most definitely saved.

@Deborah13 :

I think the question revolves around what 'tasting of the heavenly gift' means.

Whatever it means we know it resulted in repentance:

"...those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away (from enlightenment, tasting the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit), it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

That's the key. These people aren't fakes. They didn't just hear the gospel. They repented.

Besides, the author himself is convinced the Hebrews are saved:

"7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 ...But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:7-9 NASB)


I honestly don't think there's any reason to think these people are not saved...and most importantly, they are told to not lose the promise of their salvation by not continuing in their faith (as evidenced by their righteous work--aka holiness). The holiness the author later warns these saved people no one can see the Lord without.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But one cannot walk in the Spirit until they are set-free from the law, by the grace of Christ. Now what Paul is saying is that we are "New Creations" we have died to the "old man" and must walk in the truth of Christ to walk in "life".

Would you say, that "walking in the Spirit" is the process of renewing one's mind to come into agreement with the Spirit? And that sanctification, for salvation is a done deal? And that there are believers who do not KNOW that they are justified and sanctified by His righteousness and His holiness?

I would say in part, the "renewing" is to bring the "old" carnal mind into agreement with the truth of who we are as "New" Spiritual Creations. All by faith in the Word, not the letter but the Spirit. Legalism works against the "renewed" mind, for legalism is the striving of mans religion to justify the flesh. "walking in the Spirit" is to see the flesh judged with Christ and as the object to be put to death by His Cross as one walks in the Spirit, by faith.

The written Word is how we know what to put to death. It is not legalism to know what to put to death--what to resist by the Spirit--by reading it in the Bible. That is NOT the definition of legalism.

 

[JLB]

The standard of righteousness is: OBEDIENCE

Obedience to what? It's easy to talk about "obedience" without any further explanation or "obedience of faith" without actually defining what that means. The verb "obey" always has an object. I've defined what it is that I think we should obey. If you disagree, can you give us a definition of what is to be obeyed?

That's what I thought.


JLB

 

[TOG]

The standard of righteousness is: OBEDIENCE

Obedience to what? It's easy to talk about "obedience" without any further explanation or "obedience of faith" without actually defining what that means. The verb "obey" always has an object. I've defined what it is that I think we should obey. If you disagree, can you give us a definition of what is to be obeyed?

That's what I thought.


JLB

And that's just what I expected. You can't give a definition. You want to claim obedience without any actual rules to obey. You, like so many others, think that because you have faith, you can totally disregard what God has clearly commanded us to do. That's not what "obedience of faith" means.

 

[JLB]

The standard of righteousness is: OBEDIENCE

Obedience to what? It's easy to talk about "obedience" without any further explanation or "obedience of faith" without actually defining what that means. The verb "obey" always has an object. I've defined what it is that I think we should obey. If you disagree, can you give us a definition of what is to be obeyed?

That's what I thought.


JLB

And that's just what I expected. You can't give a definition. You want to claim obedience without any actual rules to obey. You, like so many others, think that because you have faith, you can totally disregard what God has clearly commanded us to do. That's not what "obedience of faith" means.

What did God command Noah to do? Because he did what God commanded him to do, his faith was shown to be a living faith.

What did God command Abraham to do? Because Abraham obeyed what God commanded him to do, his faith was shown to be a living faith.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Faith without the action of obedience is dead.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Obedience to what? It's easy to talk about "obedience" without any further explanation or "obedience of faith" without actually defining what that means. The verb "obey" always has an object.

Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Without defining obedience we don't know what that is? Even the Centurion knew what that was. These play on words, and having to examine things and discuses them because we might find loop holes. This is the World, for a lie is no longer a lie, and obedience can mean anything.

Jesus momma told ya boy!!!! Now git wit it!!!

Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

....................I hear the Word obey God, I know exactly what that means, it means be where your suppose to be, doing what He told you to do.