TRUE HOLINESS

[Deborah13]

How about the Word of Faith movement.
Are they in any way legalists?

Depends on who you are listening to. Some have their on doctrines inside the Word of Faith teachings. Not all are the same, anymore than not all Baptist preachers have the same ideas and beliefs.

 

[Deborah13]

But what I was asking is what pastor, teaching, etc. do you know who teaches grace, that says these things are OK.

Okay as far as what? Salvation?

I heard Charles Stanley says once you are saved you are forever and irretrievably saved no matter how deep into sin and unbelief you go. In effect saying there is no such thing as the trampling of grace to the destruction of the one who does that that Hebrews speaks about.

Thanks for your honest response and I do see your concern. Anyone looking for an excuse to sin can surely use the gospel of grace sinfully.

I'll have to check, but if I remember correctly that is because he believes that God will not let you go beyond His saving grace. He will stop it. But that is very different than teaching it is OK to sin and diddly bop around and think you are saved and OK with God.
He teaches against sin for the same reasons God does, because He loves us and wants us to be healthy, happy, and wise.

I agree with you that without a balance of grace and faith, the scriptures can be twisted to say something they don't.

Just thinking. If one says it's all about my being faithful and forget that the only reason we can be faithful without being legalistic, is because of God's grace in changing our hearts.
At the same time if one sees only the grace side of salvation and not the faith, they can slip into sin thinking that God's grace is all they need for salvation.

What do you think about that?

 

[George Muller]

I think people confuse, LIBERAL teachings, with Grace teachings. The Grace teachers that I am familiar with are not LIBERAL in what they view as sin. Or God overlooking sin.

My thoughts are ' they ' hide sin under liberalism calling it Grace. I do not believe Grace could be taught with out a strong teaching of OT history form the natural and spiritual sides. We would have no understanding of what He delivered us from. For some many today this is true way too often I have seen/heard the OT sidelined.

Wow Reba we agree? The understanding of grace is known by the true unbending standard of the law. When the law is "upheld" to its true standard, then grace is understood as the only answer for all men. Now those who mix law and grace are taking the power away from both. For true grace always empowers the believer to live godly lives as it is written. The true standard of the law will bring every man to be crucified to the flesh, which is the fountain all sin.

Ro 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Grace is the only biblical standard for holiness.

 

[George Muller]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

Out of time this morning, but pre-marital sex, or gay marriage are examples. The thinking being that God can overlook those in grace because the people are in love and/or were born that way.

I have a more relevant example to what we've been discussing but I'm out of time this morning....

Never heard any "grace" preacher teach any such things? These things are the product of mans religion, not the Spirit of Grace. Anyone could defeat such things that are done in the name of "grace" with just a few scriptures. So then we know this is not real grace, but sinful men who are using biblical terms and religion to cover for their own evil lust and desires. This is nothing new for this has been going on for thousands of years, but because they may use a biblical term does not mean anything as it relates to the truth of Grace. Grace is the biblical standard, there is no other.

 

[reba]

[MENTION=96503]George Muller[/MENTION]

 

[George Muller]

@George Muller

Not sure what your point is? I never would consider the TBN group (big supporters of Israel) as anything but legalist, or mixers of law and grace. Which makes my point, that those who teach legalism are always corrupt. Those who mix law and grace honor neither one. For the law produces sinful desires and they only use the term grace as a cover for their ungodly actions and lust.

"but sinful men who are using biblical terms and religion to cover for their own evil lust and desires. This is nothing new for this has been going on for thousands of years,"

 

[reba]

[MENTION=96503]George Muller[/MENTION] never mind .... twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree... Not everything has some deep meaning or hidden charge, some folks and some things are often just what they seem...

 

[George Muller]

[MENTION=96503]George Muller[/MENTION] never mind .... twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree... Not everything has some deep meaning or hidden charge, some folks and some things are often just what they seem...

Forgive me, its hard to read the intentions of some post.... I also enjoy a good well-placed joke, for no doubt the absurdity that one sees in much of what is called "Christianity" deserves the response of humor, or many tears.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION], the simplicity of some Christians is most desired state I envy. I learn more from the simple and humbled Christian who prays and believes then some theologian.

 

[Brother Mike]

twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree

Reba has humor? That's new.

Not sure what your point is? I never would consider the TBN group (big supporters of Israel) as anything but legalist, or mixers of law and grace. Which makes my point, that those who teach legalism are always corrupt. Those who mix law and grace honor neither one. For the law produces sinful desires and they only use the term grace as a cover for their ungodly actions and lust.

George, your saying that our works done without the direction and anointing of God are not acceptable for holy living? Jesus said without me you can do nothing. So attempting to please God by good works (Like the elder son) is not going to cut it. Is this what I am understanding?

Mike.

 

[Elijah674]

twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree

Reba has humor? That's new.

Not sure what your point is? I never would consider the TBN group (big supporters of Israel) as anything but legalist, or mixers of law and grace. Which makes my point, that those who teach legalism are always corrupt. Those who mix law and grace honor neither one. For the law produces sinful desires and they only use the term grace as a cover for their ungodly actions and lust.

George, your saying that our works done without the direction and anointing of God are not acceptable for holy living? Jesus said without me you can do nothing. So attempting to please God by good works (Like the elder son) is not going to cut it. Is this what I am understanding?

Mike.

I suggest that it is the motive that makes it such. Love obeys the Creator bottom/line! And all the rest?? These are seen in Matt. 6 [maturing] in the opposite direction!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

--Elijah

 

[Brother Mike]

I suggest that it is the motive that makes it such. Love obeys the Creator bottom/line! And all the rest?? These are seen in Matt. 6 [maturing] in the opposite direction!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

That make sense. Reading through what George has posted though. Is it possible to have a good motive, like starting a food drive in your Church, but it not really be God's plan for that Church? I think I am reading that it must be through the Spirit of God to be good, not just something that looks good. The phrase that the Path of Hell is paved with good intentions come to mind. What's the thought on this? If my motive is to serve God, but I am doing my own things that seem good, would that count as a life of Holiness?

In other words if my maid spends all week cleaning my garage which is good, but I really hired her to clean the house then she would not be doing such a great job, though her motive was to do something to be helpful to me.

Mike.

 

[George Muller]

twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree

Reba has humor? That's new.

Not sure what your point is? I never would consider the TBN group (big supporters of Israel) as anything but legalist, or mixers of law and grace. Which makes my point, that those who teach legalism are always corrupt. Those who mix law and grace honor neither one. For the law produces sinful desires and they only use the term grace as a cover for their ungodly actions and lust.

George, your saying that our works done without the direction and anointing of God are not acceptable for holy living? Jesus said without me you can do nothing. So attempting to please God by good works (Like the elder son) is not going to cut it. Is this what I am understanding?

Mike.

Well, in part that is my point. The flesh, no matter how religious nor legalistic one attempts to be, cannot produces "holiness" holiness is a product of the Holy Spirit. Example;

Re 3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
16 "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing' --and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--
18 "I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see

Now many have "works" and labor but they are of the flesh and are rejected by the Lord.
For here is that which the Lord desires;

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Religion produces false holiness, false works and labor. For a work not of faith is a false and dead work, "the law is not of faith". A labour that does not proceed from the love of God, is not a true labour. A "hope" that is not based upon Christ crucified, and His Righteousness is a false hope. Holiness that is a product of religion and mans flesh is a false holiness.

Ac 3:12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

 

[George Muller]

twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree

Reba has humor? That's new.

Not sure what your point is? I never would consider the TBN group (big supporters of Israel) as anything but legalist, or mixers of law and grace. Which makes my point, that those who teach legalism are always corrupt. Those who mix law and grace honor neither one. For the law produces sinful desires and they only use the term grace as a cover for their ungodly actions and lust.

George, your saying that our works done without the direction and anointing of God are not acceptable for holy living? Jesus said without me you can do nothing. So attempting to please God by good works (Like the elder son) is not going to cut it. Is this what I am understanding?

Mike.

I suggest that it is the motive that makes it such. Love obeys the Creator bottom/line! And all the rest?? These are seen in Matt. 6 [maturing] in the opposite direction!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

--Elijah

The Pharisees claimed to love God, and where willing to kill the Lord Jesus and others to prove it. It was a "false" love and false "holiness". The only One who was "holy" was the Holy One. And only those who are made holy by Him are or can be holy.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suggest that it is the motive that makes it such. Love obeys the Creator bottom/line! And all the rest?? These are seen in Matt. 6 [maturing] in the opposite direction!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

That make sense. Reading through what George has posted though. Is it possible to have a good motive, like starting a food drive in your Church, but it not really be God's plan for that Church? I think I am reading that it must be through the Spirit of God to be good, not just something that looks good. The phrase that the Path of Hell is paved with good intentions come to mind. What's the thought on this? If my motive is to serve God, but I am doing my own things that seem good, would that count as a life of Holiness?

In other words if my maid spends all week cleaning my garage which is good, but I really hired her to clean the house then she would not be doing such a great job, though her motive was to do something to be helpful to me.

Mike.

Just don't have the time to read everything in this thread, but what I would point out here is the difference between service and obedience.

"Do not murder" is not like serving in a soup kitchen. Don't wait around for some kind of spiritual confirmation to not murder someone. But in regard to a gift we are to soberly assess what God's has called and equipped us to do, and what he has not.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Pharisees claimed to love God, and where willing to kill the Lord Jesus and others to prove it. It was a "false" love and false "holiness". The only One who was "holy" was the Holy One. And only those who are made holy by Him are or can be holy.

Tit_2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Heb_12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

I don't think I am understanding some terms here, I thought I had grasped. I see where we are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus. It's a gift of right standing with the Father. Holiness however seems to be something we mimic or copy the Lord in by example. In other words it is something we produce with the help given by the Holy Spirit. It appears to live a reverent life is something we have to work on.

Mike.

 

[George Muller]

The Pharisees claimed to love God, and where willing to kill the Lord Jesus and others to prove it. It was a "false" love and false "holiness". The only One who was "holy" was the Holy One. And only those who are made holy by Him are or can be holy.

Tit_2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Heb_12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

I don't think I am understanding some terms here, I thought I had grasped. I see where we are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus. It's a gift of right standing with the Father. Holiness however seems to be something we mimic or copy the Lord in by example. In other words it is something we produce with the help given by the Holy Spirit. It appears to live a reverent life is something we have to work on.

Mike.

Not sure what point you think you are making Mike? Holiness is being separated unto the Lord, through the Holy Spirit, "partakers of HIS HOLINESS" Now surely you understand that as one walks in the Spirit they are in fact living "holy" lives? But it is not a holiness of legalism, or the flesh, but a holiness of a heart "set-apart" unto God, from this world. And Christ by the Spirit is made unto us holiness.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Also I would add that the word translated "holiness" In Tit 2 is the word "reverent" not the word for "holy" as is used in the New Testament.
Also understand that the Word of God speaks to all in the condition they are in, as Paul said "I could not speak to you as "spiritual" but as to "carnal". If you tell most Christians that Christ is there "holiness" they have no understanding of how the Spirit manifest holiness through the believer as a believer beholds Christ by faith. So the Word uses these terms to speak to the believer according to their spiritual ability to understand. "partakers of His Holiness" means that just as He is Holy, we are Holy. "for as He is so are we in this world" Now this takes "faith" to understand and to manifest.

 

[Brother Mike]

But it is not a holiness of legalism, or the flesh

for as He is so are we in this world" Now this takes "faith" to understand and to manifest.

So every believer is like him? Or is there levels of faith and levels of growth?

I am still seeing this Holiness taking some effort on our part. You sort of Hinted that we need the Holy Spirit and to walk in the Spirit, that takes effort putting the flesh under doesn't it?

 

[George Muller]

But it is not a holiness of legalism, or the flesh

for as He is so are we in this world" Now this takes "faith" to understand and to manifest.

So every believer is like him? Or is there levels of faith and levels of growth?

I am still seeing this Holiness taking some effort on our part. You sort of Hinted that we need the Holy Spirit and to walk in the Spirit, that takes effort putting the flesh under doesn't it?

Well it says "as He is-so are we in this world" If one beholds Christ as He is then one is Changed by the Spirit into that same image.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I did not suggest that it did not take a "effort" but it is a effort of faith, not the flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

twas a simple attempt at a small amount of humor that you and I could agree

Reba has humor? That's new.

Yeah, and big feet too, lol.