TRUE HOLINESS

[reba]

 

[ejected]

True holiness is when we 'walk in the Spirit' and not in the flesh which includes even our own reasoning power.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just thinking. If one says it's all about my being faithful and forget that the only reason we can be faithful without being legalistic, is because of God's grace in changing our hearts.
At the same time if one sees only the grace side of salvation and not the faith, they can slip into sin thinking that God's grace is all they need for salvation.

What do you think about that?

I think this is echoing what was said about the pendulum swinging between grace and works in the church (our faithfulness representing our works).

One extreme says grace is given to excuse sin (with the best of intentions of course). The other extreme says grace was given for us to do it on our own.

Grace was given for us to leave our lives of sin and live in godly dependance on him for holiness. Grace is neither a license to sin with impunity, nor is it an avenue through which we operate independent of God's provision for godliness. But that is the two extremes we see represented in the church to some extent or another.

 

[JLB]

@reba , the simplicity of some Christians is most desired state I envy. I learn more from the simple and humbled Christian who prays and believes then some theologian.

:amen

 

[George Muller]

True holiness is when we 'walk in the Spirit' and not in the flesh which includes even our own reasoning power.

Yes the becoming as a fool as Paul teaches is a very hard step for some. The natural "carnal" mind believes and is confident in its ability, it is sure in its own knowledge of good and evil. "fear and trembling" is the condition one must accept "fear" weakness of mind- "trembling" weakness of self and flesh. In that Paul says when we become weak of self, then we are strong in the Lord.

Religion works against this very truth, it rejects The Cross and that all must come to the death of Christ, to have His Life in the Spirit.

1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

1Co 4:7 ¶ For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Anyone who claims to have a "holiness" that they did not receive are just in the pride of mans religion.

 

[JLB]

I don't think I am understanding some terms here, I thought I had grasped.

If I were to describe holy with a one word answer, it would be the word pure.

God does not like the mixing together of species or motives.

If our actions spring from Him, they are pure.

God is pure God and nothing else.

God's seed is in us to produce God fruit.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and is therefore pure God.

His motives and actions and words are pure, and come from a source that is pure.

God is pure, His thoughts are pure, His words are pure, His deeds are pure.

He is a pure fountain of life, and pure life flows from Him like a river.

Not that any one of us could fully describe Holiness with finite human words, never the less, that is the part I see.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Not that any one of us could fully describe Holiness with finite human words, never the less, that is the part I see.

I think that's a good description. If we are walking in the Spirit, we will be walking in love for God and all others. Humility and meekness, patience, etc. The words we speak to others are an indication of what is in our hearts. I know there are times when I don't want to be gracious to another person, but we are called to set an example. "Father give me strength to walk in your Spirit of grace, that You have so freely given to me."

 

[Brother Mike]

Not that any one of us could fully describe Holiness with finite human words, never the less, that is the part I see.

I am looking at a Word that appears to be something we have to take steps to do, not something just handed over. Righteousness is a free gift, I was just trying to figure out what George was getting at.

Mike.

 

[George Muller]

Not that any one of us could fully describe Holiness with finite human words, never the less, that is the part I see.

I am looking at a Word that appears to be something we have to take steps to do, not something just handed over. Righteousness is a free gift, I was just trying to figure out what George was getting at.

Mike.

Let me try to explain Mike in all sincerity as a brother in Christ, That the process of "renewing" the mind is to go from a carnal understanding of Gods Word "the letter" unto its truth in "Spirit". The carnal mind based upon the law and the letter will see a term as "holiness" based upon the context of the law "letter". The renewed mind conformed unto the Image of Christ, understands that Christ Himself is our "holiness". Now this process can take some time based upon ones honest desire to be changed by Gods Word. Those who attempt to change the Word and not allow it to change them, can never inherit the promises of the Word, as long as they allow there carnal "old" mind to control them. Become a fool and God will make you wise, is not just a religious slogan, it is an absolute need, for those who desire to be conformed into His Image. True Holiness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not that any one of us could fully describe Holiness with finite human words, never the less, that is the part I see.

I am looking at a Word that appears to be something we have to take steps to do, not something just handed over. Righteousness is a free gift, I was just trying to figure out what George was getting at.

Mike.

It's interesting to see how James, particularly, taught his people holiness.

Very rational, very practical, not lofty, not vauge, not super spiritual.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am still seeing this Holiness taking some effort on our part. You sort of Hinted that we need the Holy Spirit and to walk in the Spirit, that takes effort putting the flesh under doesn't it?

Paul talked about 'buffeting' his body.

Peter talks about 'making every effort'.

Hebrews talks about our 'struggle with sin'.

 

[Brother Mike]

Paul talked about 'buffeting' his body.

Peter talks about 'making every effort'.

yea, that is what the word Holiness means, it's something we have to work on. That is why I was sort of confused by what George was saying. It seemed like He hinted at it, then again it seemed like it was just thrown at us for free. It means live a consecrated life toward God in all you do, doing everything unto the Lord.

Mike.

 

[George Muller]

Not that any one of us could fully describe Holiness with finite human words, never the less, that is the part I see.

I am looking at a Word that appears to be something we have to take steps to do, not something just handed over. Righteousness is a free gift, I was just trying to figure out what George was getting at.

Mike.

It's interesting to see how James, particularly, taught his people holiness.

Very rational, very practical, not lofty, not vauge, not super spiritual.

Do you suppose James and Paul are at odds? Or that the Word of God is not in perfect harmony? No if you see a difference it is only in your own understanding according to your own limits and knowledge of spiritual things. "rational" is a not "becoming a fool"

1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

 

[George Muller]

Paul talked about 'buffeting' his body.

Peter talks about 'making every effort'.

yea, that is what the word Holiness means, it's something we have to work on. That is why I was sort of confused by what George was saying. It seemed like He hinted at it, then again it seemed like it was just thrown at us for free. It means live a consecrated life toward God in all you do, doing everything unto the Lord.

Mike.

Well, please tell me of your "work" of holiness? And please explain from what place in your own ability does this "holiness" proceed?

 

[George Muller]

For those who are interested, the word "sanctified" and "holy" are the same as used through out the New Testament.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In this passage the point that "holiness" by the law demanded obedience to the written code. But for a believer we have been made holy and perfected by the Blood of Christ.

Now the "holiness" we have is not that from obedience to written rules and standards, but the "holiness" of Gods Spirit as one walks in faith.


For it is written that Christ Himself has been made unto us "holiness".


Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.


Now one can claim they have a form of holiness based upon their religious works... or lawkeeping etc.. but this sort of religious holiness has nothing to do with the truth of the gospel.

The term "holy" in effect means separated unto God, above what is common. Now this power comes only in that one "walks in the spirit" and if one is really walking in the spirit, they will manifest the fruits of the spirit. These fruits alone describe what is holy unto God and that which he accepts through faith in Christ.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance:

Now thankfully I was delivered from a "holiness" religious group. I have seen and do testify that all those who seek to work holiness through the flesh and religious works and rules, are NEVER holy, on the contrary they are bitter, jealous, full of envy and strife, covetousness, hypocricy, wrath etc..

Ac 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

This same Peter that denied Christ with curses only a few days before, had no religious deception about his own "holiness" he was in no way deceived as some are into believing that the Spirit of God moves or acts according to the holiness of any man. In fact it was Peters weakness and broken pride that allowed the Spirit of God to rest upon him. As Paul wrote over and over it is when we are in a condition of truth and weakness in our flesh, that we allow the power of Gods Spirit to make us a vessel fit for the Masters use. Those who claim they have power with God based on their holiness, are in the greatest of errors, and very well may be under the influence of a satanic spirit working false things through them in their pride.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For those who are interested, the word "sanctified" and "holy" are the same as used through out the New Testament.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In this passage the point that "holiness" by the law demanded obedience to the written code. But for a believer we have been made holy and perfected by the Blood of Christ.

Now the "holiness" we have is not that from obedience to written rules and standards, but the "holiness" of Gods Spirit as one walks in faith.


For it is written that Christ Himself has been made unto us "holiness".


Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.


Now one can claim they have a form of holiness based upon their religious works... or lawkeeping etc.. but this sort of religious holiness has nothing to do with the truth of the gospel.

The term "holy" in effect means separated unto God, above what is common. Now this power comes only in that one "walks in the spirit" and if one is really walking in the spirit, they will manifest the fruits of the spirit. These fruits alone describe what is holy unto God and that which he accepts through faith in Christ.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance:

Now thankfully I was delivered from a "holiness" religious group. I have seen and do testify that all those who seek to work holiness through the flesh and religious works and rules, are NEVER holy, on the contrary they are bitter, jealous, full of envy and strife, covetousness, hypocricy, wrath etc..

Ac 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

This same Peter that denied Christ with curses only a few days before, had no religious deception about his own "holiness" he was in no way deceived as some are into believing that the Spirit of God moves or acts according to the holiness of any man. In fact it was Peters weakness and broken pride that allowed the Spirit of God to rest upon him. As Paul wrote over and over it is when we are in a condition of truth and weakness in our flesh, that we allow the power of Gods Spirit to make us a vessel fit for the Masters use. Those who claim they have power with God based on their holiness, are in the greatest of errors, and very well may be under the influence of a satanic spirit working false things through them in their pride.

Everybody who says holiness is us trying real hard to do the right thing in our own unaided strength raise your hand.

Muller, you're arguing against something that no one here is arguing for.

What I will tell you it's time to debunk this ridiculous myth that somehow living holy by the Holy Spirit means we just kind of check out in some kind of trance and the Holy Spirit just takes over and then we wake up and realize we did the right thing. Balderdash!

The Holy Spirit is a WEAPON. A weapon that WE wield to put the corrupt desires of the flesh to death. And with training and experience it becomes easier and easier. But to think it's a cake walk is to not know what it means to wage war with the flesh.

 

[George Muller]

Muller, you're arguing against something that no one here is arguing for.

you do this all the time, act as if there is no one teaching law or holiness by the flesh? If you are not? then good. But many do and my points are very valid and cannot be defeated.
I have read many post from many posters on this forum, MOST are teaching carnal legalism, and holiness by the flesh. Now if you do not agree? Your just wrong, and of course no legalist ever admits there legalism.

 

[jasoncran]

paul says put to death the deeds of the flesh. a you form of the command is conjugated. meaning we ask and yield to god in prayer to be holy. holy living is sign that you are saved not the means which you are saved. while its part of the saving work of the cross. its something called sanctification.

 

[George Muller]

paul says put to death the deeds of the flesh. a you form of the command is conjugated. meaning we ask and yield to god in prayer to be holy. holy living is sign that you are saved not the means which you are saved. while its part of the saving work of the cross. something called justification.

Yes, here is how Paul teaches to "put to death the flesh"

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but that is what I said. I can keep sinning and hold on to sin or just let the Holy spirit take it the ball is in my hands. I have to allow god to take that sin from me.

even Calvinism teaches that.we aren't holy and sin free as babes in Christ. we must grow and mature slowly and that often involves god working on our hearts and showing us where we sin.my church teaches eternal security and HOLINESS.