TRUE HOLINESS

[Jethro Bodine]

It's interesting to see how James, particularly, taught his people holiness.

Very rational, very practical, not lofty, not vauge, not super spiritual.

Do you suppose James and Paul are at odds? Or that the Word of God is not in perfect harmony?

Not even suggesting it. That's not what I was driving at.

It's interesting how James, particularly, uses the Law to teach holiness. But some insist the law, used or acknowledged in any way shape or form, is entirely and totally opposed to holy living. I suggest to you the WAY of the law is what is opposed to successful holy living, not the law itself. Law is how we know what sin is. In fact, holy living UPHOLDS the requirements of the law. It is through the WAY of the Holy Spirit, not the way of mere written words alone, that we do that.

The law acts like the road sign that tells us there is a curve in the road ahead and that we need to slow down to negotiate it. The sign is there to warn us because if we wait until we're in the curve to then start slowing down it will probably be too late and we will cross the center line and injure or kill the person coming toward us on the other side of the road.

Responsible, rational, Spirit-filled living is not somehow not needing the road sign (the law) to warn us to restrain our behavior to avoid hurting another person, and somehow knowing without the sign that we should slow down for a curve we don't know is there until we get to it. No. Responsible, Spirit-filled living is reading and heeding the warning sign and acting through the power of the Spirit working in our lives to obey it. That is what it means to walk by the Spirit. The supernatural part about it is the power of the Holy Spirit itself working that obedience in us, and creating in us a heart of flesh that cares about the person coming the other way.

No if you see a difference it is only in your own understanding according to your own limits and knowledge of spiritual things. "rational" is a not "becoming a fool"

1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

All inapplicable to the context of this discussion.

There's nothing foolish, or irrational, or wickedly crafty, or vain about knowing what is written in the law that warns us about what harms other people. And it's ridiculous to think that to then choose to obey what the law warns us about is a wicked attempt of the flesh apart from the Spirit to please God. If that's true then James, especially, was a false teacher teaching damnable self-righteous works. He used the law to teach how we are to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Somehow this gets understood by some to mean, categorically and without exception, trying to please God without the Holy Spirit. The foolish and irrational one is the one who thinks he can have an adequate knowledge of right and wrong without knowledge of the law.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! (Balderdash! lol.) Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7 NIV parenthesis mine)

"21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! (Balderdash again! lol.)" (Galatians 3: NIV parenthesis mine)

"...through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Romans 3:20 NIV)

What you should confine your argument to is law alone can not lead you to a holy life. Knowledge alone is not how one lives a holy life. That is the proper argument against law in regard to power for holy living. We live a holy life by knowing the requirements of the law (and then some) and then fulfilling them through the power and ministry of the Holy Spirit at work in us, changing us into those who obey God's requirements because we have tenderness and compassion towards others in our hearts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Muller, you're arguing against something that no one here is arguing for.

you do this all the time, act as if there is no one teaching law or holiness by the flesh?

There are a few denoms that teach unaided law observance, and/or law observance as a way to be justified. I can't think off hand of anyone in this forum that is doing that.

If you are not? then good. But many do and my points are very valid and cannot be defeated.
I have read many post from many posters on this forum, MOST are teaching carnal legalism, and holiness by the flesh.

Who?

I'm not saying there isn't one. I just want you to point them out to me, please.

Now if you do not agree? Your just wrong, and of course no legalist ever admits there legalism.

Are you suggesting I'm one of those legalists?

You would be in terrible error to think that. If you do think that it's because you think simply doing what James says amounts to nothing more than damnable legalism:

"22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:22-25 NIV)

Explain how James can tell us to look "intently into the perfect law that gives freedom", and "not forgetting...but doing it" and not be a legalist, but if I say that I am.

 

[George Muller]

yes but that is what I said. I can keep sinning and hold on to sin or just let the Holy spirit take it the ball is in my hands. I have to allow god to take that sin from me.

even Calvinism teaches that.we aren't holy and sin free as babes in Christ. we must grow and mature slowly and that often involves god working on our hearts and showing us where we sin.my church teaches eternal security and HOLINESS.

Well the point being, "legalism" law keeping and religious works of the flesh are not the answer to the sin issue, they only make sin worse and attempt to cover sin in religion fig leaves. I am teaching power over sin through the Spirit of God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Not sure if you have noticed, but I am not a Calvinist, I am a HOLY-ROLLER True holiness, that is based upon the Spirit of God, and not the flesh of man.

 

[George Muller]

There are a few denoms that teach unaided law observance, and/or law observance as a way to be justified. I can't think off hand of anyone in this forum that is doing that.

Well of course you may see things as you like, and most who are under the power of legalism have no ability to see it or its destructive effects.

 

[George Muller]

It's interesting how James, particularly, uses the Law to teach holiness.

Well a legalist, may have that perception, but of course James is not teaching the law of Moses as to promote holiness by the law. Again you seem unable to understand that James and Paul are in perfect agreement? The conflict is only in your own mind.

 

[George Muller]

You would be in terrible error to think that. If you do think that it's because you think simply doing what James says amounts to nothing more than damnable legalism:

"22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:22-25 NIV)

Explain how James can tell us to look "intently into the perfect law that gives freedom", and "not forgetting...but doing it" and not be a legalist, but if I say that I am.

Well of course the "perfect law of Liberty" is the Gospel, not the law of Moses.

James is teaching the very thing that I have been teaching on this thread, That ones mind must be "renewed" by the Word . If Gods word says that you are "free" from the law of sin and death, and you are a forgetful hearer and not a doer who walks in liberty, then one is yet in bondage to the flesh.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but that is what I said. I can keep sinning and hold on to sin or just let the Holy spirit take it the ball is in my hands. I have to allow god to take that sin from me.

even Calvinism teaches that.we aren't holy and sin free as babes in Christ. we must grow and mature slowly and that often involves god working on our hearts and showing us where we sin.my church teaches eternal security and HOLINESS.

Well the point being, "legalism" law keeping and religious works of the flesh are not the answer to the sin issue, they only make sin worse and attempt to cover sin in religion fig leaves. I am teaching power over sin through the Spirit of God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Not sure if you have noticed, but I am not a Calvinist, I am a HOLY-ROLLER True holiness, that is based upon the Spirit of God, and not the flesh of man.

if one is honest and believes in eternal security one is a Calvinist.I leave your stance to jethro,if the bible isn't meant to be read and heeded after we repent at that cross then why are we told to study it?

 

[George Muller]

yes but that is what I said. I can keep sinning and hold on to sin or just let the Holy spirit take it the ball is in my hands. I have to allow god to take that sin from me.

even Calvinism teaches that.we aren't holy and sin free as babes in Christ. we must grow and mature slowly and that often involves god working on our hearts and showing us where we sin.my church teaches eternal security and HOLINESS.

Well the point being, "legalism" law keeping and religious works of the flesh are not the answer to the sin issue, they only make sin worse and attempt to cover sin in religion fig leaves. I am teaching power over sin through the Spirit of God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Not sure if you have noticed, but I am not a Calvinist, I am a HOLY-ROLLER True holiness, that is based upon the Spirit of God, and not the flesh of man.

if one is honest and believes in eternal security one is a Calvinist.I leave your stance to jethro,if the bible isn't meant to be read and heeded after we repent at that cross then why are we told to study it?

Well of course you may call one a "Calvinist" but that has no relation to the truth. And only the legalist, fail to read and heed the bible. So not sure what point you think you are making?

Edited

 

[George Muller]

For those who are interested, the word "sanctified" and "holy" are the same as used through out the New Testament.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In this passage the point that "holiness" by the law demanded obedience to the written code. But for a believer we have been made holy and perfected by the Blood of Christ.

Now the "holiness" we have is not that from obedience to written rules and standards, but the "holiness" of Gods Spirit as one walks in faith.


For it is written that Christ Himself has been made unto us "holiness".


Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.


Now one can claim they have a form of holiness based upon their religious works... or lawkeeping etc.. but this sort of religious holiness has nothing to do with the truth of the gospel.

The term "holy" in effect means separated unto God, above what is common. Now this power comes only in that one "walks in the spirit" and if one is really walking in the spirit, they will manifest the fruits of the spirit. These fruits alone describe what is holy unto God and that which he accepts through faith in Christ.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance:

Now thankfully I was delivered from a "holiness" religious group. I have seen and do testify that all those who seek to work holiness through the flesh and religious works and rules, are NEVER holy, on the contrary they are bitter, jealous, full of envy and strife, covetousness, hypocricy, wrath etc..

Re: TRUE HOLINESS

Ac 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

This same Peter that denied Christ with curses only a few days before, had no religious deception about his own "holiness" he was in no way deceived as some are into believing that the Spirit of God moves or acts according to the holiness of any man. In fact it was Peters weakness and broken pride that allowed the Spirit of God to rest upon him. As Paul wrote over and over it is when we are in a condition of truth and weakness in our flesh, that we allow the power of Gods Spirit to make us a vessel fit for the Masters use. Those who claim they have power with God based on their holiness, are in the greatest of errors, and very well may be under the influence of a satanic spirit working false things through them in their pride.

​

 

[JLB]

Now this process can take some time based upon ones honest desire to be changed by Gods Word.

By God's Word, I take it you mean the bible?


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Now this process can take some time based upon ones honest desire to be changed by Gods Word.

By God's Word, I take it you mean the bible?


JLB

Well of course the Bible contains the written word, but the Word itself is Spirit. For the "letter" kills but the Spirit gives life. One who seeks holiness by the "letter" is in a condition of spiritual death. Those who live by the life of the Word are the true sons of God.
2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[JLB]

Holiness is not something, it is Someone.

His name is Jesus.

To the degree you have been conformed to His Image, to that degree you are holy.

To the degree you have obtained the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, to that degree you are holy.

Moses did not have the any scriptures, He wrote the scriptures.

Paul was filled with the scriptures and was killing Christians, until He had an encounter with The Holy One.

Paul wrote the scriptures.

Renewing the mind has little to do with the scriptures, if your goal is being full of scripture.

Jesus said it this way -


39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40

The Bible has little to do with holiness, other that to show us a glimpse of Him who is pure, of Him who is Holy.


Again, Holiness is not something you obtain, it's Someone.


To the degree the mind of Christ has be formed in you, to that degree you are holy.

Enoch walked with God and was no more, for God took him.

It is one thing to meditate on the scriptures, it is all together another to meditate on God, so that you are beholding Him and being conformed to His Image.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Holiness is not something, it is Someone.

His name is Jesus.

To the degree you have been conformed to His Image, to that degree you are holy.

To the degree you have obtained the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, to that degree you are holy.

Glad you agree with me on this issue, and this is the point I have been making on this thread from the beginning. That Christ is our holiness, not legalism and law-keeping.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are a few denoms that teach unaided law observance, and/or law observance as a way to be justified. I can't think off hand of anyone in this forum that is doing that.

Well of course you may see things as you like, and most who are under the power of legalism have no ability to see it or its destructive effects.

Guide me to these posts you make reference to so I can read them and know that you have a potential audience in this forum:

"I have read many post from many posters on this forum, MOST are teaching carnal legalism, and holiness by the flesh."

I submit to you the very opposite is represented in this forum and the church at large, not law keeping legalism. 'Law', and 'work's, are the four letter words of the church. Hyper-grace is the operational word in the church today. It's a 'do-nothing', or 'don't have to do anything' holiness that is most prevalent in the church today.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's interesting how James, particularly, uses the Law to teach holiness.

Well a legalist, may have that perception, but of course James is not teaching the law of Moses as to promote holiness by the law. Again you seem unable to understand that James and Paul are in perfect agreement? The conflict is only in your own mind.

It's NOT a holiness by the law. It's a holiness that upholds the law.

You seem unable to see the difference. The difference between the WAY of the law, and the WAY of the Spirit, and how both seek to uphold the requirements of the law, but only one is able to do that.

And I told you I'm not suggesting there is a conflict between Paul and James, so why are you bringing it up again? Paul is the very one who said faith in Christ upholds the law (Romans 3:31 NIV). I used James as the especially obvious example of one who uses specific requirements of the law to teach the holiness revealed in the law, now fulfilled through the power of the Holy Spirit, to his people, . It's impossible to deny. But if one is not very familiar with the law they will not see this and continue in the indoctrination in the church today that makes the law a bad and forbidden thing--the four letter word that is never to be uttered. Despite the fact that James himself makes several specific references to the requirements of the law. But you say that is the way of cursed legalism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

George,

A certain minister "eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."* James 2:1-9 being where he teaches us to obey the law to not show favoritism found in Leviticus 19:15. He gave that instruction so that we would be living in accordance with the royal command, also found in the law, to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NIV). And if memory serves me correctly, I don't think James talks anything about doing these things by the Holy Spirit, though we know that he obviously believed and taught that. I'm confident that we both agree he taught that we please God by the power of the Spirit, not mere written words alone.

Now, was this minister a legalist for reading and then heeding guidance and instruction that comes from the law? Yes, or no?

George, do you know the minister's name to whom I'm referring? * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

 

[JLB]

George,

A certain minister "eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."* James 2:1-9 being where he teaches us to obey the law to not show favoritism found in Leviticus 19:15. He gave that instruction so that we would be living in accordance with the royal command, also found in the law, to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NIV). And if memory serves me correctly, I don't think James talks anything about doing these things by the Holy Spirit, though we know that he obviously believed and taught that. I'm confident that we both agree he taught that we please God by the power of the Spirit, not mere written words alone.

Now, was this minister a legalist for reading and then heeding guidance and instruction that comes from the law? Yes, or no?

George, do you know the minister's name to whom I'm referring? * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

George Müller

 

[Ryan]

The real George Muller sounded like a wonderful man. Unfortunate though he had all those works to go with his astounding faith. Eyes rolled so much they did a 360 in my head.

 

[George Muller]

There are a few denoms that teach unaided law observance, and/or law observance as a way to be justified. I can't think off hand of anyone in this forum that is doing that.

Well of course you may see things as you like, and most who are under the power of legalism have no ability to see it or its destructive effects.

Guide me to these posts you make reference to so I can read them and know that you have a potential audience in this forum:

"I have read many post from many posters on this forum, MOST are teaching carnal legalism, and holiness by the flesh."

I submit to you the very opposite is represented in this forum and the church at large, not law keeping legalism. 'Law', and 'work's, are the four letter words of the church. Hyper-grace is the operational word in the church today. It's a 'do-nothing', or 'don't have to do anything' holiness that is most prevalent in the church today.

Well as I said, it is almost impossible to convince a legalist of their error, the only way to convince a legalist to turn to the truth, is to challenge their pride, to knock them off their high horse. Now I have seen no evidence that you desire to have an honest discussion or debate on this issue, therefore I am limited by your limited understanding of the truth. So I see no point in pointing out this things that are evident. This thread is on the issue of True Holiness, a very important issue, before some can understand the "true" the false must be exposed. This is what I have done, whether you agree or not, means nothing to me.

 

[George Muller]

George,

A certain minister "eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."* James 2:1-9 being where he teaches us to obey the law to not show favoritism found in Leviticus 19:15. He gave that instruction so that we would be living in accordance with the royal command, also found in the law, to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NIV). And if memory serves me correctly, I don't think James talks anything about doing these things by the Holy Spirit, though we know that he obviously believed and taught that. I'm confident that we both agree he taught that we please God by the power of the Spirit, not mere written words alone.

Now, was this minister a legalist for reading and then heeding guidance and instruction that comes from the law? Yes, or no?

George, do you know the minister's name to whom I'm referring? * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

This I assure you, it was the legalist who brought this sort of thing into the church, as they always do. They are full of evil hearts and coveteousness. For the strength of sin, is the law. Also it is not the law, that teaches us to deny ungodliness, it is grace. As George Muller would attest too.

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace