Unconditional Election

[JLB]

If so, do you believe in the Trinity, the divine and human natures of Jesus, God's creation of the universe and humans, humans' fall into sin, the Bible as the Word of God, the virgin birth of Jesus, his full deity and full humanity, his substitutionary atonement for believers with his death, and his bodily resurrection for believers' new life to live for God's glory?

I believe the scriptures about each of those topics, not what man has twisted these biblical truths to mean.

Here is a basic elementary truth from the scriptures, lets see if we agree on it.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

• For God so loved the world

Do you believe God loves the unsaved people of the world? My answer is yes!

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Do you believe God sent His son into the world so that the unsaved people of the world might be saved through Him? My answer is yes!


Can you answer these two elementary questions?

 

[JLB]

Providence generally refers to divine guidance or care, often associated with the belief that God oversees and directs human affairs.

That may very well be, however when the word isn't found in scripture, the meaning is up for grabs.

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men. Psalms 115:16


So we could say, in God's providence He has given the earth to mankind to choose to govern the earth in a good way or an evil way.


Do you agree?

 

[JLB]

When people hear the gospel by God's providence, then the Holy Spirit opens their hearts and illumines their minds to savingly accept the gospel.

Ok, so that's what you believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These heard the word of salvation, but choose not to believe.

Believe is the condition for salvation. Believe in the present tense; believing to the end.

Those who believe and therefore are saved, then later they are influenced under persecution to renounce Christ as Messiah, and no longer believe, then they will no longer be saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe = Saved
Temporary believing = temporary salvation.

 

[Dougcho]

I was hoping for actual scripture. not scripture references with your personal commentary.
Faith comes from God to us when we hear Him speak His word to us.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17
Once God speaks to a person directly or indirectly through those He sends with the Gospel, it's up to them to believe and therefore obey or not obey what they hear.
Those who hear the Gospel and receive faith from hearing the Gospel must believe and therefore obey in order for them to be saved.
Obedience is the principle or law by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result.

Didn't I give you actual Scripture references?
Perhaps a person believes ...
and then God gives them the faith required to keep believing?
OR ...
Faith comes from hearing ...
a person hears and then God gives the necessary faith to believe.

 

[electedbyHim]

Please show me the post where I claimed to know scripture.

Your insults are noted.

So you do not know Scripture?

Noted??

 

[electedbyHim]

Please provide the scripture you are referring to so I can see what you mean.

Are you fro real?

You do not know God is providential??

 

[Whatever]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

These heard the word of salvation, but choose not to believe.

It doesn't say they chose not to believe. It says the devil somehow takes it our of their hearts.

Those who believe and therefore are saved, then later they are influenced under persecution to renounce Christ as Messiah, and no longer believe, then they will no longer be saved.

What do you mean by "saved.?" Is that the same thing as born again or born of God in your view?

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

A saved person is not going to sin by renouncing Jesus.

Believe is the condition for salvation. Believe in the present tense; believing to the end.

Yes, if a person believes for a while and then doesn't, it violates what you said above "believing to the end."
So a temporary faith is not saving faith. You might be pronounced saved by a preacher who baptizes you, but he can't know the future - God can.

 

[JLB]

Didn't I give you actual Scripture references?
Perhaps a person believes ...
and then God gives them the faith required to keep believing?
OR ...
Faith comes from hearing ...
a person hears and then God gives the necessary faith to believe.

The way faith comes to us is when God speaks to us and we hear.

The term "by faith" means God spoke to a person and they obeyed.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God spoke to Noah to build an ark and Noah obeyed... He moved with godly fear until the ark was complete.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

God spoke to Abraham and he obeyed what God told him to do.

That's how we are justified by faith, by doing what God tells us to do.

Paul calls it the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you fro real?

You do not know God is providential??

I guess it depends on what a person means by providential.

I asked you to share a scripture using the word "providential" so I could see how the bible uses the word.


Kinda like the word "sovereignly" or "sovereignty". These are not found in scripture.

Sovereign means ruler or Potentate. God is a Sovereign; a Potentate

Beyond this it's just men redefining words to prop up their man made doctrine.

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:14-15 KJV

that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:14-15 NKJV

that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 Timothy 6:14-15 NASB

 

[JLB]

It doesn't say they chose not to believe. It says the devil somehow takes it our of their hearts.

Yes when they didn't believe then the devil took it out of their hearts.

Believe is the condition to be saved.

What do you mean by "saved.?" Is that the same thing as born again or born of God in your view?

Yes. However being born again or regenerated is only the beginning of salvation.

When we are born again by the Spirit, we become one spirit with Christ. We are now "in Christ" and thus we are one with the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; we are joined to eternal life in Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Jesus expects us to remain "in Him" throughout our life, so that at the end of our faith we can receive the salvation of our souls.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9





JLB

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I believe the scriptures about each of those topics, not what man has twisted these biblical truths to mean.

How can I know you're not twisting God's biblical truth? I believe in a reality check, according to the bible itself. True doctrines summarized from God's biblical truths pass this check, false doctrines fall apart.

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:18-22)

And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.” (Acts 5:38-39)

 

[electedbyHim]

I guess it depends on what a person means by providential.

I asked you to share a scripture using the word "providential" so I could see how the bible uses the word.


Kinda like the word "sovereignly" or "sovereignty". These are not found in scripture.

Sovereign means ruler or Potentate. God is a Sovereign; a Potentate

Beyond this it's just men redefining words to prop up their man made doctrine.

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:14-15 KJV

that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:14-15 NKJV

that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 Timothy 6:14-15 NASB

This is why theology is your friend.

But you limit God, that is your choice.

Thats why He gave us Pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4:11).

 

[JLB]

This is why theology is your friend.

But you limit God, that is your choice.

Thats why He gave us Pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4:11).

Pastors and teachers that teach the doctrine of Christ are good, as Paul said.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Those who teach the doctrines of man, only lead you away from Christ.

Following the personal doctrines of man only leads to division (denominations).

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Again


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


People that need to feed off of other peoples teachings are immature, and need to be fed by others as a child needs to be fed milk.

Learn to allow the Holy Spirit to teach you the scriptures.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


This is called being led by the Spirit.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

 

[Whatever]

Yes when they didn't believe then the devil took it out of their hearts.

That don't make sense. If they didn't believe, the devil would have no reason to take it out of their hearts.

 

[Whatever]

The way faith comes to us is when God speaks to us and we hear.

Yes, and Jesus' own words tells us this:
John 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

I know you will reject it, but here is Matthew Poole's Commentary

He that is of God; to be of God, here, is opposed to a being not of God, and so may be understood to comprehend election, as well as regeneration.

Hears God’s words; he heareth, acknowledgeth, believeth, and patiently submits to the will of God revealed in his word.

Because ye are not of God, not chosen of him, not savingly enlightened and regenerated by him.

Paul says the same thing:
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things

Judges = properly to scrutinize, that is, (by implication) investigate, interrogate, determine: - ask, question, discern, examine, judge, search

To paraphrase Jesus: The spiritual person is of God and hears, acknowledges and believes God's words.

How does a natural man become spiritual?
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[JLB]

That don't make sense. If they didn't believe, the devil would have no reason to take it out of their hearts.

They heard the message of salvation and did not believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19

 

[JLB]

Yes, and Jesus' own words tells us this:
John 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Jesus was speaking to Jews who believed and thought they were saved because they were unconditionally elected, being Abraham's descendant's.

However their deeds were not right. -- You do the deeds of your father.

The same way many today claim they are elect but can't stand to hear His word, but rather they want the words of man.

Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.



Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:31-47

 

[electedbyHim]

Pastors and teachers that teach the doctrine of Christ are good, as Paul said.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Those who teach the doctrines of man, only lead you away from Christ.

Following the personal doctrines of man only leads to division (denominations).

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Again


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


People that need to feed off of other peoples teachings are immature, and need to be fed by others as a child needs to be fed milk.

Learn to allow the Holy Spirit to teach you the scriptures.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


This is called being led by the Spirit.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

You sure have a lot of opinions.

People that need to feed off of other peoples teachings are immature, and need to be fed by others as a child needs to be fed milk.

Proof?

You must be of the spiritual elite?

Learn to allow the Holy Spirit to teach you the scriptures.

He illuminates.


JLB, perhaps you need to be humble like the Etheopian Eunuch.

Act 8:30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

 

[JLB]

You sure have a lot of opinions.

Pastors and teachers that teach the doctrine of Christ are good, as Paul said.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Those who teach the doctrines of man, only lead you away from Christ.

Following the personal doctrines of man only leads to division (denominations).

• that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,”

If we are not to follow the personal doctrines of Paul, Peter or Apollos, then how much more the doctrines of men today.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

 

[JLB]

Proof?

It's all explained in the scripture I gave you.

Here it is again -

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4

• For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Do you understand what the scriptures are saying?

• I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it

Maybe you should dedicate this year to reading and studying the scriptures and what Jesus taught us through His Apostles, rather than what other men write. Just a suggestion.