Unconditional Election

[Arial]

God desires all men to be saved.

I guess we are just going to go around the mulberry bush on how the context identifies who the "all" refers to, so I will just ask----"If God desires all men to be saved, why aren't they?"

 

[Whatever]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The condition for a person to have everlasting life is to believe.

But we are not disputing that. I accept that every single person who believes (and endures to the end) will be saved. What we are disputing is that you seem to think God is ignorant of all those people who won't believe and sends His Son to die for them in the hope that they will also believe.

God is omniscient and has infallible foreknowledge. Do you believe this?
I don't see how you can believe that and still think that God desires things He knows won't happen.

I don't think God fantasizes about things like hoping maybe His foreknowledge is wrong and maybe by some chance all men will be saved.

 

[Arial]

Election for purpose, not salvation. That is the context of Romans 9.

• that the purpose of God according to election might stand,

The purpose God elected specific individuals from Abraham’s offspring was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:1-11

Do you not think God has a purpose for all who believe? Paul is illustrating election giving the purpose of the election of Isaac in the history of redemption. National Israel is only a part of that redemption, not the whole story and not separate from the whole story.

But lets not stop at verse 11 to determine what Paul is saying.

14-24 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory---even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Clearly Paul has moved on from the original illustration of election and carried it into the NT believers in Christ.

 

[Arial]

JLB

As a courtesy, would you please address these conclusions of the interpretation of the passages given that I presented. Post #44

You have only highlighted the "all's". My point and purpose here is to identify what Paul means when he says "all men". Why is it important to do this?

Because right off the bat, if we consider that it means all men without exception, we have some glaring contradictions within the Bible, not the least of which is that God somehow is not really omnipotent. He fails to get what he desires. Equal to that monster of an idea, is that Jesus gave himself as a ransom (carefully consider what a ransom is) for all men without exception, and that lifeblood shed on the cross failed to do what it was shed for more often than it succeeded.

 

[Arial]

Yes and the way the means of salvation He describes in
John 3:3-6 is obtained, is by believing.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever ( pas; G3956) indicates everyone in the world.
All men.

That is kind of funny in a way. The leap from one thing to another triggered my fear of heights. The word "believes" that follows the "whoever" is a self limiting qualifier. And John 3:3-6 is Jesus explaining how one comes to believe--- see and enter the kingdom of heaven. Through the work of the Holy Spirit.

It is the incorrect definition of the usage of "world" that causes the incorrect interpretation of the "whoever".

He reiterates this in the parable of the Sower.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

That is not a reiteration of whoever in John 3:16. To exegete it for what it is will change the subject as it is a different subject.

Your screen shot giving the meaning of "pas" from Strong's, shows a very common mistake. And that is that all the usages listed are always applied all the time or that we can pick one that fits our presuppositional interpretation and say that is what it always means. It is the context that determines how it is being used, not what we already believe or what we want to believe.

 

[Arial]

They aren’t saved but they are His sheep?

Sounds complicated.

So the Totally Depraved are really His sheep, but their not saved?


Fascinating, to say the least.

It only sounds complicated if one's theology evolves from a false premise. That false premise in this case would be, that ones knowledge of God is derived from the starting point of one's knowledge of humanity, and God then defined according to humanity and from that perspective. Doing that will always be filled with man's human desires of who and what they want God to be rather than his own self revelation of himself. He will begin to interpret everything in his own favor.

Proper theology however is purely the study of God and must start with and stay consistent with who he declares himself to be. And from that we can see where humanity stands in relation to him, and why we are utterly dependent upon his grace---for anything, not the least of which is salvation from ourselves as sinners and our condition of helplessness.

 

[LeviR]

Well, I ask what the key words were in the entire set of passages that would identify who the "all" are in verse 4 when Paul says "he desires all men to be saved." You didn't do that and you still haven't. Maybe it is not important to make sure we get the foundational doctrines of Christianity straight and keep them straight throughout history, just as Paul was instructing and encouraging Timothy to do?

You have only highlighted the "all's". My point and purpose here is to identify what Paul means when he says "all men". Why is it important to do this?

Because right off the bat, if we consider that it means all men without exception, we have some glaring contradictions within the Bible, not the least of which is that God somehow is not really omnipotent. He fails to get what he desires. Equal to that monster of an idea, is that Jesus gave himself as a ransom (carefully consider what a ransom is) for all men without exception, and that lifeblood shed on the cross failed to do what it was shed for more often than it succeeded.

Now a person can go merrily on their way, neglecting to consider those three things, (a God who fails and is powerless in the face of humanities sinfulness, a Christ who dies in vain because of man's choices, and contradictions within the scriptures) and think all is well and "all" means all without exception in those passages. And it is true, that any God has elected and therefore that is why they believe, even though they believe they did the choosing in the matter, will never lose that salvation; it is also true according to Paul in 1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay straw---each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Does God need to fit in a philosophical box?
The wisdom of the Calvinist says He does. They speak of the sovereignty of God and His omnipotence in a way that if He doesn’t know and have selected those to be saved before hand then He cannot be God.
For the Calvinist, to think any other way is to reduce God to being less than He is.
Therefore, the idea that God desires all men to be saved, cannot mean what it says.
But the thing is, it does mean what it says.
Whether or not you limit those “all men” to simply those who believe the gospel and are in Christ or to all of mankind, God still desires that they be saved.
The word “desires” there means that God is willing and wants all men to be saved.
It implies that if any come to Him through Christ, He is willing to save them.
In fact, the next verse speaks of Christ a mediator between God and man.And that it is acceptable to God for all to come to Him through the means He has provided them.
An interesting fact about Christ as our High Priest, is that he is not like those other high priest who had to continually offer a sacrifice every year for the sins of the people.
Our high priest only had to be sacrificed once. He ever lives to make intercession for those being saved.

 

[Arial]

Does God need to fit in a philosophical box?

What part of my post is that responding to?

The wisdom of the Calvinist says He does. They speak of the sovereignty of God and His omnipotence in a way that if He doesn’t know and have selected those to be saved before hand then He cannot be God.

When "wisdom" is attributed to the "Calvinist" in that sentence it moves the argument to persons instead of theology and doctrines. All Calvinist to not believe exactly the same things. All Calvinists do not speak the same things. But the teachings found in Calvinism/Reformed is grossly distorted by the accusation. You have combined to distinct things and treated them as though they were the same thing. (Sovereignty and omnipotence as the same thing as election.) It is scripture that declares God is Sovereign and also that he is omnipotent. It is also Scripture that declares he elects who he will to salvation. (Eph 1:4-5; Romans 8:28-30; Acts 13:48; 2 Tim1:9; John 6:37; John 6:44; Romans 9:16; Mark 13:20; Titus1:1)

For the Calvinist, to think any other way is to reduce God to being less than He is.

Well, you have misstated what Calvinism teaches so it is likely that none of them think that way.

Therefore, the idea that God desires all men to be saved, cannot mean what it says.
But the thing is, it does mean what it says.
Whether or not you limit those “all men” to simply those who believe the gospel and are in Christ or to all of mankind, God still desires that they be saved.

It does mean what it says but one must determine by the context what it means. The context qualifies the "all" men to "all types of men" when immediately after saying "Pray for all men, for kings and those in authority, and later that there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus. To say "all" means every individual presents a mostly failed mediator and a God powerless in the face of the will of man.

Whether or not you limit those “all men” to simply those who believe the gospel and are in Christ or to all of mankind, God still desires that they be saved.
The word “desires” there means that God is willing and wants all men to be saved.
It implies that if any come to Him through Christ, He is willing to save them.

But I thought he was omnipotent and I have heard also that he loves everyone equally---though I heartily disagree with that assessment as it is naive.

In fact, the next verse speaks of Christ a mediator between God and man.And that it is acceptable to God for all to come to Him through the means He has provided them.

Acceptable to God? Who exactly is in charge in that scenario? Christ is the only way. And no one comes to him unless the Father draws him, and the Father draws those he is giving to Christ. John 6 and 10.

 

[JLB]

I guess we are just going to go around the mulberry bush on how the context identifies who the "all" refers to, so I will just ask----"If God desires all men to be saved, why aren't they?"

Yes, this is usually what happens.

Calvinist's cant or wont answer basic simple questions that come directly from the scriptures.

I desire to discuss what the scriptures actually say, and try to find basic points of agreement from which we can build mutual agreement and have a fruitful discussion.

"If God desires all men to be saved

We know for sure that God desires all men to be saved because His word plainly and clearly say so.

The only people I have ever discussed the scriptures with that deny that God wants all men to be saved is Calvinist's.

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-7

If you don't believe all means all in these passages, and you don't believe God desires all men to be saved, then please show us the scripture that teaches us the group of people that are excluded from God's plan of salvation.

 

[Whatever]

They speak of the sovereignty of God and His omnipotence in a way that if He doesn’t know and have selected those to be saved before hand then He cannot be God.

No, we simply say this is what God has reveled in His scriptures. I won't bother posting a bunch of passages, they won't be answered.

 

[electedbyHim]

It only sounds complicated if one's theology evolves from a false premise. That false premise in this case would be, that ones knowledge of God is derived from the starting point of one's knowledge of humanity, and God then defined according to humanity and from that perspective. Doing that will always be filled with man's human desires of who and what they want God to be rather than his own self revelation of himself. He will begin to interpret everything in his own favor.

Proper theology however is purely the study of God and must start with and stay consistent with who he declares himself to be. And from that we can see where humanity stands in relation to him, and why we are utterly dependent upon his grace---for anything, not the least of which is salvation from ourselves as sinners and our condition of helplessness.

Excellent.

 

[JLB]

Proper theology however is purely the study of God and must start with and stay consistent with who he declares himself to be.

This is who He declares Himself to be -

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

God loves and desires for the people of the world to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


I guess your "proper theology" doesn't include these scriptures.


In over 38 thousand posts, the only people that deny that God loves the people of this world, and desires all men to be saved, are Calvinist's.

They all claim this by denying the plain and simple words of scripture.

 

[electedbyHim]

This is who He declares Himself to be -

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

God loves and desires for the people of the world to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


I guess your "proper theology" doesn't include these scriptures.


In over 38 thousand posts, the only people that deny that God loves the people of this world, and desires all men to be saved, are Calvinist's.

They all claim this by denying the plain and simple words of scripture.

Is love the only attritbute of God?

Is love all He declares Himself to be?

 

[JLB]

Is love the only attritbute of God?

Is love all He declares Himself to be?

I think we all agree that God is just.

God shows no partiality.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

Furthermore, here is who will receive eternal life -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

 

[electedbyHim]

I think we all agree that God is just.

God shows no partiality.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

Furthermore, here is who will receive eternal life -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Yes, the elect.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the elect.

Yes the elect what?

God shows no partiality.

No Partiality for Jews.
No partiality for Gentiles.

No special rules for anyone!!!

Here is who will receive eternal life -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Here is who will not receive eternal life -

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

 

[Arial]

If you don't believe all means all in these passages, and you don't believe God desires all men to be saved, then please show us the scripture that teaches us the group of people that are excluded from God's plan of salvation.

That great crowd on the wide and easy path headed for the wide gate are the ones who will not be saved. (Matt 7:13) I will give more examples later. Right now I prefer another cup of coffee in peace. But just for the record, even you do not believe that none are excluded from salvation. Even you agree unbelievers are excluded from salvation.

 

[JLB]

Even you agree unbelievers are excluded from salvation.

Well I must say, it’s refreshing to hear you insinuate that the reason a person is unsaved, is because they are unbelievers rather that unelected.

I was hoping at some point we could agree.

Please enjoy your coffee and your morning.

Peace is extremely precious.

May the Lord bless you today with the peace of God that surpasses all understanding… that guards your heart and your mind.



JLB

 

[Whatever]

The only people I have ever discussed the scriptures with that deny that God wants all men to be saved is Calvinist's.

That is because Calvinists know there other passages than the 4 or so you like to harp on.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
Isa 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

These are passages where God tells us that whatever he desires, He will bring it to pass.
These are passages where God tells us that His Word accomplishes what He sends it for.
You show us a passage that says "God desires all men to be saved."
We both know that all men are not going to be saved.
We read in the book of Revelation that all kinds of men will be saved.
Calvinists understanding of the "all men" passages fits in with reality. All kinds of men without distinction of race, language, time or place are saved. God's word does accomplish the things for which He sends it.
Your interpretation of all men without exception being saved does not happen.
Who's understanding of God's Word fits in with reality?

 

[JLB]

That is because Calvinists know there other passages than the 4 or so you like to harp on.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
Isa 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

These are passages where God tells us that whatever he desires, He will bring it to pass.
These are passages where God tells us that His Word accomplishes what He sends it for.
You show us a passage that says "God desires all men to be saved."
We both know that all men are not going to be saved.
We read in the book of Revelation that all kinds of men will be saved.
Calvinists understanding of the "all men" passages fits in with reality. All kinds of men without distinction of race, language, time or place are saved. God's word does accomplish the things for which He sends it.
Your interpretation of all men without exception being saved does not happen.
Who's understanding of God's Word fits in with reality?

All of which can not explain away the truth of Jesus Christ.

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

God loves and desires for the people of the world to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the unsaved people of this world?