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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Growth Understanding Baptism ?
- Thread starter grams
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
We understand your argument perfectly. The problem is it is based on the misinformation about water baptism you received from the Catholic Church. It is you that is not understanding the true meaning of water baptism. If you did understand it, you'd abandon your insistence that it not be done, or does not have to be done. But you are certainly correct that it does not have to be done for the sake of justification.
9. THE MOMENT A PERSON GETS SAVED HE IS BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST
When a person trusts the gospel the Holy Spirit of God baptizes them into the Body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:13 and 12:27 says: “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit….Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”
This is not a water baptism. This is not a minister baptizing a person in water. It is the Holy Spirit baptizing (placing the believer) into Jesus Christ. The word “Baptize” means to be placed into for the purpose of identification. Upon believing the gospel a person is placed into and identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as taught in Romans 6:3-7 which says: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
Every believer in this age of grace is made a member of the Body of Christ. We are one with Him. He is the head and we are His body. If it were possible for a saved person to lose their salvation and end up in hell, then a part of Jesus Christ would be in hell.
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This is from our Grace Bible Church - Pastor - Tom M. Bruscha
When a person trusts the gospel the Holy Spirit of God baptizes them into the Body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:13 and 12:27 says: “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit….Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”
This is not a water baptism. This is not a minister baptizing a person in water. It is the Holy Spirit baptizing (placing the believer) into Jesus Christ. The word “Baptize” means to be placed into for the purpose of identification. Upon believing the gospel a person is placed into and identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as taught in Romans 6:3-7 which says: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
Every believer in this age of grace is made a member of the Body of Christ. We are one with Him. He is the head and we are His body. If it were possible for a saved person to lose their salvation and end up in hell, then a part of Jesus Christ would be in hell.
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This is from our Grace Bible Church - Pastor - Tom M. Bruscha
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's why it is ex-saved people that end up in hell. But that is the stuff of another thread.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This being true, one should then get water baptized as an expected obedience of the faith they have, just as 'do not murder', for example, is an expected obedience of the faith that justified them.
If you said: The moment a person is born again, He is baptized into Jesus Christ, I would agree.
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
That may well be. However, consider that anointing in the light of Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" as well as the many people who are devoted to the ministries of Christian charlatans.
Another issue is the intellectual development of the believer. A person with a 4th grade education does not have the same ability to glean the truths of scripture as does someone with a more complete education. And the person who has had an advanced theological education has an even greater advantage. (It's rather like the reason why medical doctors can prescribe medicines but nurses cannot is the difference in their training.)
As an aside: Mormons know that the Book of Mormon is true by the "burning in the bosom" that they feel.
Yes, the thief on the cross was not baptized. I believe it is a requirement only if you are able.
I do not agree that he is "proof." Paul's explanation of baptism equates it with fulfilling one of Jesus' stated requirement that one must be "born again" of water and of spirit. Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit before he was baptized in water but he fulfilled both requirements and thus submitted to the lordship of Jesus.
iakov the fool
Jethro Bodine
Member
Right, but the point we were addressing is he did not have to be water baptized in order to then receive justification/ salvation. He is proof that it's not true that one can only receive justification/ salvation (that is, be born again) by being water baptized, for those who are able to do that.
We should not throw out the truth about the believer's privilege and power to discern truth for themselves just because some believers will choose to follow their hearts instead. I sense this dictatorial 'don't question us' oppression in the Catholic Church and, frankly, I thank God they are not the only church to attend, as it used to be.
LovethroughDove
Member
You are comparing things that shouldn't be compared.
People are assuming baptizing is related to the water baptism, because that is how it has been for a long time in the church. It seriously is a tradition from man.
Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
I do not see the command from Christ to get baptized in John's baptism after you have been given the Holy Spirit baptism. If you can produce that scripture, I'll leave this thread alone.
We are to follow what Christ has commanded of us, but you keep saying water baptism is part of that and I don't see it in scripture.
You've only pointed to the 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of good conscience toward God.
After Jesus says, "you nullify the word of God by your tradition" - he talks about what makes a man unclean. This is talking about nothing on the outside can make a man unclean........but from the heart
Mark 7:17-23 This is the point I'm trying to make. The water baptism fulfilled it's purpose until the Holy Spirit was given. You will obey the commands of Jesus with the guidance of the Holy Spirit......you will not murder, but saying that if you don't get water baptized after you've received the Holy Spirit is not following Christ.....that is not scriptural, nor true.
I hope to keep with who said what. I agree there is no encouragement to return back.
First repentance that causes a need for salvation in Christ Jesus
Second the acceptance / baptism into the salvation Jesus accomplished
Third the baptism of Holy Spirit that empowers us to witness.
Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.
We can not return to repentance, circumcism, law of Moses, works of law - for righteousness.
eddif
After their / our baptism into all the Godhead is, they / we are confronted with a world of lost folks with little to no knowledge of God.
They / we may have the Holy Spirit, but the majority of people use an ordered progressive journey toward eternity future ( heaven ). People do not generally start out with spiritual gifts and head toward repentance (picking up Jesus on the way).
John prepared the way for Jesus. There are still hell fire preaching messages preached that bring about repentance.
Jesus accomplished salvation (once forever). There are still salvation sermons being preached today.
Holy Spirit was sent to empower disciples. There are still sermons being preached about the Holy Spirit and service.
These three conditions were presented seperately (of course they merge into a body of believers that recognize their seperate gift and the gifts of others), but they can be examined seperately in scripture.
Comments?
eddif
They / we may have the Holy Spirit, but the majority of people use an ordered progressive journey toward eternity future ( heaven ). People do not generally start out with spiritual gifts and head toward repentance (picking up Jesus on the way).
John prepared the way for Jesus. There are still hell fire preaching messages preached that bring about repentance.
Jesus accomplished salvation (once forever). There are still salvation sermons being preached today.
Holy Spirit was sent to empower disciples. There are still sermons being preached about the Holy Spirit and service.
These three conditions were presented seperately (of course they merge into a body of believers that recognize their seperate gift and the gifts of others), but they can be examined seperately in scripture.
Comments?
eddif
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. [Holy Spirit Baptism]
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit...
Jesus Christ sent Peter directly to do this work for Him.
These received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then afterward they were water baptized.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
When that is the case, yes, people in the church do indeed confuse passages about water baptism with passages about baptism into Christ, and baptism in the Holy Spirit. But that hardly makes it true that water baptism was laid aside.
Not even remotely true:
Who sent John to baptize with water that it should be, as you say, a tradition from man:
"33“I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ " (John 1:33 NASB)
We can easily see for ourselves that it seriously is from God, not man.
Okay, so you acknowledge that Christ commanded water baptism, but you want to argue that you do not have to obey that command once a person has the Holy Spirit in salvation. The Bible clearly shows this to not be true: "Peter ordered Cornelius and his household to be water baptized after they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 10:48 NASB).
There are a few other examples in the Bible of people believing and then being water baptized that contradict any notion that once you believe, and, therefore, receive the Holy Spirit, that you then do not have to be water baptized. It simply does not hold up to what the Bible actually demonstrates.
Okay, I pointed this out before, but let's try it again: The waters of Noah's day symbolize water baptism, but you are incorrectly reading it as water baptism is the symbol, and, therefore, on that basis does not have to be done. But you are wrong in saying water baptism is the symbol. The waters of Noah are the symbol.
Then you are trying to discredit the necessity of water baptism by pointing out that Peter says water baptism saves you, not knowing that the scriptures also say child bearing saves you (1 Timothy 2:15). The problem being, you are confusing justification apart from works with the truth that what we do does indeed 'save' us, for all that actually means, not what most in the church thinks that has to mean and can only mean (that justification/salvation is earned by what we do).
But anyway, what you're doing is confusing the point of the 1 Peter 3 passage by emphasizing the 'baptism saves' part. The point is, it says that water baptism is the pledge of a good conscience toward God (aka, a sign of repentance), yet it is being argued that it is a now an outdated and unnecessary obedience because we are already justified, as if water baptism was ever meant as a way to make yourself righteous in God's sight to begin with. The bottom line is, there is a very poor understanding of the role water baptism serves that has caused these false beliefs about water baptism to rise. And the blame lies largely with the Catholic Church for teaching people that it is a way that you are justified, causing some people, like yourself, to react in a knee-jerk fashion and miss the Biblical truth that it is commanded as an obedient public pledge of a good/clean conscience toward God.
Well, I've showed you that it is scriptural. To not get water baptized after believing is to resist Christ's command to the church to baptize the nations. Christ does the baptizing with the Spirit--that's Christ's work, not ours. The church, on the other hand, obeys his command to baptize in water. Just as John obeyed God to do that in his time.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Water baptism itself is not repentance. It is the sign of your repentance.
Co.2:
8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
LovethroughDove
Member
I know what happened in my Holy Spirit baptism.
John's baptism is from God, and served it's purpose until the Spirit baptism.
Acts 10:48 is explained in Acts 11. How everyone can be baptized in the Spirit.
I'm baffled with how people think the Spirit doesn't lead you into repentance without literal water?
John's baptism is from God, and served it's purpose until the Spirit baptism.
Acts 10:48 is explained in Acts 11. How everyone can be baptized in the Spirit.
I'm baffled with how people think the Spirit doesn't lead you into repentance without literal water?
Jethro Bodine
Member
That is not even remotely close to what I've been defending. I know indoctrinations, once they get set in a person, are hard to overcome and even makes it so the person can't hear the argument they are fighting against and causes them to automatically assume what you're saying is the common argument they are supposed to resist, but how is it that you have not been understanding what I've been saying in this thread? Seriously, how?
Or are you directing your post toward someone else?
Jethro Bodine
Member
You CAN repent without water baptism. In fact, your repentance is why you then get water baptized!
LovethroughDove
Member
Jethro, this is what a couple of people are defending (including you). Why would Jesus have us water baptize after you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit? I don't have any affiliation with any denomination, so the indoctrination thing isn't my thing. I've been hearing what you've said....over and over and over and there is a disconnect between us somehow.That is not even remotely close to what I've been defending. I know indoctrinations, once they get set in a person, are hard to overcome and even makes it so the person can't hear the argument they are fighting against and causes them to automatically assume what you're saying is the common argument they are supposed to resist, but how is it that you have not been understanding what I've been saying in this thread? Seriously, how?
You have said that Holy Spirit wants you water baptized because of your faith, and that is where we are disconnected.
The Spirit came after the water and you want the water after the Spirit and it doesn't compute. We are just not going to agree and I'm okay with that.