Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[Jim Parker]

If you want to read the facts about the reliability of the Gospel from a conservative scholar, I highly recommend this article: Recent Perspectives on the Reliability of the Gospels HERE

This is really good stuff! Thanks!

jim

 

[ezra]

how you come to the conclusion water baptism saves us/gives us eternal life is beyond me. when i say i don,t follow apostolic doctrine. i mean oneness teaching

 

[grams]

Then why get Baptized ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How about Jesus who said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." ? (Mar 16:16a)

iakov the fool

The mistake is thinking this means you get water baptized to get justification/salvation.
Cornelius' experience in Acts 10 proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that is not true. What is true is Cornelius and his family got water baptized. It simply wasn't the agent through which they had to be justified/saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then why get Baptized ?

As a public pledge of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21 NASB).
One of the most important things for the new believer is to get them moving (literally) into the life of witness and obedience God has called them to. Water baptism does that.

Not getting water baptized is like going on a diet that only you know about. It only lasts until the next piece of tempting chocolate cake comes into view. But if you've made it known that you are on a diet you have more of an impetus to live up to the pledge you made publicly. So it is, also, that a secret salvation that only you know about is probably doomed to defeat for the same reason.

This is why you'll see evangelists insist on some kind of feedback from those who have responded to the altar call. The TV evangelist who led me to the Lord had everybody call in who responded--not so they can get $$ as you're prolly thinking, lol. They congratulated us (me and my wife) and sent us useful info to get started in our walk with God. Even got us hooked up with a local church. We got water baptized by that church about 3 months later.

 

[eddif]

I really wish I knew more about what I am about to write.

I. We are applying baptism in Christ Jesus to: Aspects of
1. the baptism of John and the baptist
2. The baptism of the Holy Spirit
3. The forked baptism of fire
4. Various washings and shadows of Law

II. We are applying the baptism of John to:
Aspects of
1. The baptism of Jesus
2. The baptism of the Holy Spirit
3. The baptism of fire
4. The Red Sea and Cloud symbolism

III. We are applying the Holy Spirt baptism to:
Aspects of
1. The baptism of Jesus
2. The baptism of John the Baptist
3. The purification of the baptism of fire
4. The Law - fire, sacrifice, water, clouds,etc.

IV. The baptism of fire to:
1. My ignorance runs deep here

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and isa discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Not only am I stuck in a situation of not understanding my actions ...

I get to see the individual aspects of the Godhead and the perfect unity with which the Godhead agrees.

We are at work:
Understanding Baptism

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Daniel 12:4 KJV
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The fog in Mississippi was thick this morning (in patches).
eddif

 

[eddif]

how you come to the conclusion water baptism saves us/gives us eternal life is beyond me. when i say i don,t follow apostolic doctrine. i mean oneness teaching

While I can look at a glass as half empty or half full, it is usually better to see the positive.

How Oneness and Trinitarian are the same.

Both believe in repentance
Both believe Jesus died for our sins
Both believe in the Holy Spirit

The difference in pharisees and sadducees is much greater.

If you have a literal concrete mind you are looking for holy water or a defined action to provide salvation. If you are figurative in thinking you might look for wisdom (sometimes regretfully outside the bible).

This is directed at baptism.

I Corinthians 2:1
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

In looking for power you can forget Gods wisdom. In looking for Jesus crucified you can miss Holy Spirit. All of us have to watch our direction of thought.

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

how you come to the conclusion water baptism saves us/gives us eternal life is beyond me.

Oh! Sorry to hear that. It's really not that complicated.

Rom 6:4-5 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

And what was His resurrection like?

Rom 6:8-9 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

Neither will death be master over the believer. The believer, like Christ, will never die again because, in baptism, the believer has been given the same kind of life that Jesus Christ has: eternal life.

In baptism we are united with Christ in His death and His resurrection. His resurrection was to eternal life.

In his commentary on Romans, Martin Luther (Who was definitely not a "Oneness" preacher) wrote: "Baptism has been instituted that it should lead us to the blessings (of this death) and through such death to eternal life. Therefore IT IS NECESSARY that we should be baptized into Jesus Christ and His death." (Commentary On Romans, Kregel Publications, p.101).

Also: at Gal 3:26-27 Paul said, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

The word "for", which begins v. 27, introduces the means by which we become Sons of God: Through baptism, the believer is "clothed with Christ." HE is "in Christ." Only those who have been baptized into Christ have really received Christ into their lives.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The apostle Paul also said at Col 2:9-12 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

These statements of Paul also make it clear that Baptism is not a "work of man." It is "through faith in the working of God" that the believer is buried with Christ in His death and raised in Christ to eternal life.

when i say i don,t follow apostolic doctrine. i mean oneness teaching

Ah so! It is an odd circumstance to be identified as "Apostolic" when a church's doctrine is contrary to the teaching of the apostles! Oh well! SUch is the confusion that comes with having some 50,000 denominations, sects, schisms, etc.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

The mistake is thinking this means you get water baptized to get justification/salvation.

Exactly. We don't get baptized so we can "get" something. (Like earning some spiritual Boy Scout badge.)

We get baptized, first, because Jesus commanded it, and second, because in baptism God unites us with Jesus in His death and in His resurrection to eternal life.

iakov the fool

 

[By Grace]

Edited.. reba

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God unites us with Jesus in His death and in His resurrection to eternal life.

That sounds like salvation.
Cornelius had that before he was water baptized. It was not conditioned on being water baptized.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

SUch is the confusion that comes with having some 50,000 denominations, sects, schisms, etc.

And thank God for 'em.
I'd hate to be at the mercy of a single church leadership that has led the flock astray. Thankfully, we Protestants can find the church that has correct doctrine. Before the Protestant Reformation there was no freedom of thought and conscience.

 

[Jim Parker]

How Oneness and Trinitarian are the same. ....Both believe in the Holy Spirit

Not quite. They believe in the modalist sense that the Holy Spirit is one of the ways in which God manifests Himself. They do not believe the Holy Spirit is one of the three hypostases of the Trinity.

So, in fact, the "oneness" folk do NOT believe in the Holy Spirit as orthodox Christians do.

iakov the fool

 

[grams]

IF we are receiving a free gift then why do works ?

Simple to answer ?

And not getting saved by doing things , then what and why Baptized ?

We are now under Grace - Do you know what that is ?

Not following Moses and the other Apostles...... But Paul , that Christ told Paul some thing different for us
Gentiles..........

 

[Jim Parker]

Thankfully, we Protestants can find the church that has correct doctrine.

And exactly which of the 50,000 denominations, sects, schisms, and personal opinions etc. might that be?

What I have noted is that people tend to attend the churches with doctrines that concur with their personal opinions. And if the Pastor offends them with some preaching, they go down the street to another church that is more to their liking. Rather than "Charismatic", they are more "cruise-amatic."

Most have no idea from where their church's doctrine comes and have never heard of the early church fathers.

One chap, when told about Poly carp asked, "Did Polycarp speak in tongues?" So much for being able to discern which church has the "correct doctrine."

Before the Protestant Reformation there was no freedom of thought and conscience.

God's word does not allow for "freedom of thought and conscience."

Deviation from God's truth is described by the word, "heresy."

Examples of attempts to exercise "freedom of thought" include, Arianism, Nestorianism, Modalism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism, Montanism, Docetism, and a host of other heresies. The one benefit of the doctrines of these "free thinkers" was that it forced the church to precisely define it's doctrine over the first 8 centuries. The "reformation" introduced a resurgence of the invention of novel doctrines by men exercising their "freedom of thought and conscience" which has brought us to the very sad fracturing of the body of Christ into tens of thousands of squabbling fragments we see today and which provide evidence be which the pagan concludes that God could not possibly have created such confusion. They are correct.

Freedom of conscience is described at 1Ti 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

The idea that the average man with what passes for an education today is capable of precise exegesis, and by his education being able to determine which church has the "correct doctrine" is akin to the same average man reading a book on medicine and then proceeding to perform brain surgery.

But what do I know????

iakov the fool


PS: Notice I did not make the claim that the age old Roman, Orthodox, Coptic, Syrian, etc. churches are perfect.

 

[reba]

closed for review... what part of this is not a debate forum do we not understand ..:tongue

 

[reba]

Having a bit more time this thread , well the last pages of it, has been reviewed and will be reopened

 

[ezra]

And exactly which of the 50,000 denominations, sects, schisms, and personal opinions etc. might that be?

What I have noted is that people tend to attend the churches with doctrines that concur with their personal opinions. And if the Pastor offends them with some preaching, they go down the street to another church that is more to their liking. Rather than "Charismatic", they are more "cruise-amatic."

Most have no idea from where their church's doctrine comes and have never heard of the early church fathers.

One chap, when told about Poly carp asked, "Did Polycarp speak in tongues?" So much for being able to discern which church has the "correct doctrine."



God's word does not allow for "freedom of thought and conscience."

Deviation from God's truth is described by the word, "heresy."

Examples of attempts to exercise "freedom of thought" include, Arianism, Nestorianism, Modalism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism, Montanism, Docetism, and a host of other heresies. The one benefit of the doctrines of these "free thinkers" was that it forced the church to precisely define it's doctrine over the first 8 centuries. The "reformation" introduced a resurgence of the invention of novel doctrines by men exercising their "freedom of thought and conscience" which has brought us to the very sad fracturing of the body of Christ into tens of thousands of squabbling fragments we see today and which provide evidence be which the pagan concludes that God could not possibly have created such confusion. They are correct.

Freedom of conscience is described at 1Ti 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

The idea that the average man with what passes for an education today is capable of precise exegesis, and by his education being able to determine which church has the "correct doctrine" is akin to the same average man reading a book on medicine and then proceeding to perform brain surgery.

But what do I know????

iakov the fool


PS: Notice I did not make the claim that the age old Roman, Orthodox, Coptic, Syrian, etc. churches are perfect.

i can say on my part i don,t claim to have it all figured out doctrine wise. there are many issues i am pondering on . but Baptism i stand firm on.. water baptism is not being saved/born again. the Blood atonement saves us
1 Peter 1:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his ownblood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what do I know????

Hang around, I'd love to teach you what I've learned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IF we are receiving a free gift then why do works ?

Simple to answer ?

Because that's what justifying faith does. Paul said it like this:

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

In other words, the only thing that means anything toward justification is faith. And that faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that loves. The faith that justifies is the faith that obeys.

And not getting saved by doing things , then what and why Baptized ?

Did you read my earlier post where I answered this question? You don't have to read my posts, but it's kind of irritating that I and others answered this for you, but you continue to ask the question as if it hasn't been answered. The expected response is for you to address the answer, not re-ask the question.