Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[Jim Parker]

water baptism is not being saved/born again

That is a modern deviation from what the apostles and the church taught from the beginning.

Luther wrote: "This is diligently to be noted, because of the fond and fantastical spirits, who go about to deface the majesty of baptism, and speak wickedly of it. Paul, contrariwise, commends it, and sets it forth with honorable titles, calling it, 'the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost'. And here also he saith, that 'all ye that are baptized into Christ, have put on Christ.' Wherefore baptism is a thing of great force and efficacy." (Commentary On Galatians, Kregel Publications, p. 222)

The word "regeneration" means "the process of being born again."

Baptism is only efficacious because of the death and resurrection of Christ. (1) We could not be buried with Christ's in His death by baptism (Ro 6:4) unless Christ has been crucified, had died and hand been buried. (2) We could not be raised from the waters of baptism to new life in Christ (born again) if Jesus had not raised from the grave to new and eternal life.

We are not saved by anything we do. God does the saving. But God has told us to be baptized for the remission of our sins.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

As to the objection that baptism is a form of salvation by works, Martin Luther said, "Yes, it is true that our works are of no use for salvation. Baptism, however, is not our work but God's.”(as quoted by Jack W. Cottrell in Baptism And The Remission of Sins, College Press, 1990, p. 32-34)

But what did he know? Right? :wink

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

i
King James Version (KJV)

Why? You don't speak that language and because of it's archaic grammar and syntax, it is prone to be misunderstood.

Why not a modern version that affords you the results of having older manuscripts and a complete Greek NT. (parts of Erasmus' Textus Receptus on which the KJV is based is a re-translation from the Latin Vulgate back into Greek because no Greek manuscript was available int he early 1500s.) Also, the newer translations (like the New King James Version) is in modern English which you do speak.

Just sayin'

iakov the fool

 

[eddif]

What does Henle's loop have to do with baptism? The water and blood are there; much as the blood and water flowed out of the pierced side of Jesus. His kidneys were pierced by his beating.
Lamentations 3:10
He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, andaccording to the fruit of his doings.

I John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

What does Henle's loop have to do with baptism?

Absolutely nothing.

The water and blood are there; much as the blood and water flowed out of the pierced side of Jesus. His kidneys were pierced by his beating.

Lamentations 3:10 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

A beating is not the same as being pierced by arrows.

The soldier pierced Jesus' side with his spear. It punctured the pericardium, the membrane around the heart, not his kidney.
When a person dies, his blood quits flowing and becomes stagnant. When it becomes stagnant, the platelets separate from the plasma so that when the pericardium is punctured, the red platelets and the clear serum come out looking like blood and water.

Lamentations 3:10 is not a picture of what happened to Jesus. No one shot Hmm with an arrow.

And to you also, I reccommend that you get a modern English translation of the Bible since you (and I) do not speak King James English. It will be easier to undeerstand in the language you speak. (modern English)

iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I read my Bible. That's my denomination. I don't accept or reject doctrine simply because it falls into the Catholic or Protestant denomination. Any honest Bible reader can see for himself that water baptism is not a legalistic requirement to be fulfilled before one is born again. Cornelius and his household prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt (and in my opinion, that's one of the reasons it's recorded for us in scripture). So we must read all other passages about water baptism in the overwhelming light of that Biblical truth. So, that being true (that water baptism is NOT a legalistic procedure one must fulfill before they can be born again), it is Peter who gives us the best explanation of what water baptism is for--the pledge of a clear conscience:

"21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". (1 Peter 3:21 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And not getting saved by doing things , then what and why Baptized ?

If we are not saved by doing things, then what and why 'not murder'?
The answer is because obedience is what faith in Christ does. It doesn't do that to secure justification (that happens apart from doing righteous things). Faith obeys because it changes the person into a new creation who does righteous things--that is, obeys Christ.

To illustrate, look at what John says about the one who murders:

"15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him." (John 3:15 NIV)

Is he saying 'not murdering' somehow justifies a person, qualifying them to receive eternal life? Of course not (see Romans 3:20). He's saying the obedience to 'not murder' shows you have the faith that secures eternal life. Just as murdering shows you do not. Similarly, the obedience of water baptism is an expression of our faith in Christ and the eternal life that we possess, not a device to secure that eternal life. It's one of the things we do because we have faith in Christ and as a result have the new nature that does righteous things and obeys what Christ commands.

 

[ezra]

Why? You don't speak that language and because of it's archaic grammar and syntax, it is prone to be misunderstood.

Why not a modern version that affords you the results of having older manuscripts and a complete Greek NT. (parts of Erasmus' Textus Receptus on which the KJV is based is a re-translation from the Latin Vulgate back into Greek because no Greek manuscript was available int he early 1500s.) Also, the newer translations (like the New King James Version) is in modern English which you do speak.

Just sayin'

iakov the fool

why ask why ?

 

[eddif]

The whip which beat Jesus is supposed to have had bone fragments platted into the whip (i was not there). These bone fragments could have pierced the kidneys. This is the wAy the prophets spoke (in hidden symbols). It is not about kidneys washing blood, but about Jesus being involved in baptism that cleans our conscience now. It was not about oxen but about preachers today.

Job 2:3. KJV
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
(The arrows in the quiver).

I just use KJV because of so many search engines allowing its use and I do not void any copyright laws. Well the prophets spoke in riddles and I live in a world of hidden symbolism.
But
Romans 1:19-20 KJV
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The OT - OC speaks in hidden symbols, but I seek to show how to open the symbols to NT - NC understanding. Jesus showed himself in the prophetic scriptures so they might show others, or at least encourage themselves. I wear welding lenses which limit my understanding, but I am not blind (nor are others).

Once it was about literal animal blood, but the reality is Christ Jesus and our conscience.

eddif. The Mississippi redneck

 

[grams]

Again works and law are not for us in this time! My bible tells me this , and if you read and understand you
will also !
Gal.2:
16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20
I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal.5:

4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Romans 11.

6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[reba]

Posted for grams
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

My guess, it is something in your computer

 

[eddif]

New Testament information does not have to be divorced from the Old Testament.

Right after talking about taking care of widows.
I Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer isworthy of his reward.

In Mississippi we would say respect a good preacher and if you have money pay him.

I Corinthians 9:6
Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt,this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

I Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

The word of God should be alive. The Old Testament concepts are alive when written in our hearts and minds ( Jew or Gentile - new covenant).

Blending the Jew and Gentile is taking some time (in my head), but a little more hit me this morning (stressed, driving to work). Jews had all the problems (according to King David and the ungodly had none ( sleek and fat ).

Now / today

Romans 7:25 has one area with problems and the other with victory (who am I that you should have mercy on me ?).

Anyhow. I have tried to show old covenant hidden concepts can be made to agree with new covenant / kingdom teaching.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Romans11.

25 -26- 27-

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Isa 59:20

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Isa 59:21

I just do not understand what is going on....... I have copyed and pasted R. 11:: 25 - 26 - 27 -
and I keep getting the above ? Does this mean some thing ????????????

It looks like you are looking at the parallel passages for Romans 11.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
This fits
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Isa 59:20
(Blindness was in Israel till the Gentiles came in. Tie is made to look at Romans 11:25 to understand Isaiah 59:20
..,............
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Israel shall be saved the same way the Gentiles are)
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Isa 59:21
........,..::;
Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(Also above OT - OC passages)

This is the very thing many are saying. The Old Testament is for all of us. It is hidden with a veil over the Jewish understanding, and it was hidden from the Gentiles because they did not have the scriptures (with exceptions).

At Pentecost the Jews were opened to heart and mind word.

At Gentile Pentecost (Peter visit to Gentile gentile household) they had same spiritual experience .

Jews and Gentiles are made into one new man Ephesians 2.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again works and law are not for us in this time! My bible tells me this , and if you read and understand you
will also !

Then why are Christians to 'not murder', and 'not steal', and 'not commit adultery', etc.?
When you understand why you 'do' these commands you will understand why we are to be water baptized.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Anyhow. I have tried to show old covenant hidden concepts can be made to agree with new covenant / kingdom teaching.

OT concepts do indeed agree with new covenant/ kingdom teaching.

The problem is that the gentile church has been so thoroughly indoctrinated with the lie, starting with the 3rd or 4th century church, particularly, that the law can only be understood and 'kept' as a way to be justified and that it should be utterly and completely cast away on that basis. The interesting part about this is, water baptism is not even a matter of old covenant law that it should be thought of as a way that a person gets justified and so discarded on that basis.

 

[eddif]

OT concepts do indeed agree with new covenant/ kingdom teaching.

The problem is that the gentile church has been so thoroughly indoctrinated with the lie, starting with the 3rd or 4th century church, particularly, that the law can only be understood and 'kept' as a way to be justified and that it should be utterly and completely cast away on that basis. The interesting part about this is, water baptism is not even a matter of old covenant law that it should be thought of as a way that a person gets justified and so discarded on that basis.

The Jewish people developed a thought that the prophets were wrong, and they beat some and killed others. They also developed traditions that contradicted the living word of God.

The Gentiles were warned to not think of themselves to highly. Now the Gentile history Christians have developed some bad traditions themselves.

The one new man contains both Jew and Gentile merged.

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

I read my Bible. That's my denomination.

I encounter that notion regularly, with sadness. By it you deny yourself access to the wisdom of the "pillar and foundation of the truth" which is the Church. (1Ti 3:15) It is unfortunate that so many people fall into the trap of assuming they are capable of the same level of understanding as the found in the Church. This is sheer folly. Are you or I expert in ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek? Are you or I expert in the historical and cultural milieu in which the scriptures were written? If our answers are "No" and "no" then why would an intelligent person like you not afford yourself the benefit of the writings of those who were led by the Holy Spirit in establishing of Christian doctrine?

God placed in the Church "...prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, (EPh 4:11-14)

Why would anyone assume that their efforts to know God by the scriptures would be more fruitful than attending to the teachers whom He placed in the Church for our edification? The rejection of the outflow of their God given gifts results in exactly what God placed them in the church so that we may avoid remaining spiritual children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, or the deceitfulness of our own hearts, I would dare to add.

...water baptism is NOT a legalistic procedure one must fulfill before they can be born again), it is Peter who gives us the best explanation of what water baptism is for--the pledge of a clear conscience:

It is not "legalistic" ,that is, in keeping with the Law of Moses. (Legalism is the required adherence to the Law of Moses.) It is Jesus' command that we be baptized (Mat 28:19) and, it is Paul who stated exactly what happens in Baptism.

Jesus said that we must be born again of water and spirit. (Jn 3:5) Paul stated: (Rom 6:3-5)

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Peter said: “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Act 2:38)

To die with Christ in Baptism and raise again to new life in Him is to be "born again." (AKA: "regeneration.") That's the "born of water" part. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the "born of Spirit" part. They are two separate acts of God. Both are necessary i order to enter the Kingdom of God.

Peter's "pledge of a clear conscience" refers to God's pledge to cleanse us from all impurity.

And that, to the best of my understanding, is what the Church has taught from antiquity.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

why ask why ?

Because you have choices and, IMHO, choosing to read something as important as the scriptures in a language that you don't speak is not the best choice.

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

Because you have choices and, IMHO, choosing to read something as important as the scriptures in a language that you don't speak is not the best choice.

iakov the fool

i read other versions they all say saved by grace through faith not water baptism .kjv is what i have cut my teeth and what i am more familiar with . i use other versions to study with. { I encounter that notion regularly, with sadness. By it you deny yourself access to the wisdom of the "pillar and foundation of the truth" which is the Church. (1Ti 3:15) It is unfortunate that so many people fall into the trap of assuming they are capable of the same level of understanding as the found in the Church. This is sheer folly. Are you or I expert in ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek? Are you or I expert in the historical and cultural milieu in which the scriptures were written? If our answers are "No" and "no" then why would an intelligent person like you not afford yourself the benefit of the writings of those who were led by the Holy Spirit in establishing of Christian doctrine? } i dont think in this case any one is claiming to be a expert the Bible says study show yourself approved rightly dividing the truth --it is your claim that water baptism is essential to salvation .. there are many others who have studied including my self baptism . no where in scripture does it say be baptized and your saved. i know a minister in excess of 50 years or better that has about 4th-5th grade education . he knows the Bible and its all due to the Holy Spirit showing him . education is great but in the end it takes the holy spirit to show us
the spirit of truth

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would anyone assume that their efforts to know God by the scriptures would be more fruitful than attending to the teachers whom He placed in the Church for our edification?

I don't know why....arrogance I suppose.
The point is, each believer has an anointing to know the truth. That does not mean to know the truth solely on their own without help from others, but to know when someone is dishing out garbage and when they're serving up truth. We all have the power of discernment through the Holy Spirit who inhabits the words of scripture. That's how we can know what teacher or fellow believer knows what he's talking about and who does not, and so whether or not we should listen to them (1 John 4:1-6).

It is not "legalistic" ,that is, in keeping with the Law of Moses. (Legalism is the required adherence to the Law of Moses.)

No, I meant water baptism being 'legalistic' as in thinking God delivers when, and only when, we fulfill certain requirements. Faith is legalistic in that sense. For example, Paul refers to the 'law of faith'. That means faith is legalistic in the sense that faith is the 'law' that has to be fulfilled for justification to happen (as opposed to the law of works).

But I think that people make a terrible mistake in making water baptism legalistic in regard to justification/ salvation. Cornelius is proof that water baptism is not a kind of 'law' that if, and only if, you fulfill it God will grant you justification/ salvation. Cornelius did not keep water baptism as a legalistic requirement in order for him to receive justification/ salvation. I, and many, many other people have a similar testimony--we got justified/ saved before we got water baptized, in complete defiance of the doctrine that says you have to be water baptized to be justified/ saved. Surely it happens that way for some, especially if your faith is set to expect it to happen that way because someone taught you that's how it happens. But even in that case, God is not bound by a sense of legalism that he can, and will, only do it that way.

 

[grams]

Well ! I was Baptized as a infant and , when I got married we did Baptize our children.

And in all those years I did not have a bible I was never told to get one.
And now I see that ........... And at the age of 50 we finally got one...........
GOD sent HIS only begotten son to the Cross for us Gentiles in this period of Grace
And changed the rules that some of you do not see ! Sorry about that I did not either it took more reading and
understanding what I was reading..... I would hope some of you would understand or at least try to ?
God did change thing for us.........