Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[ezra]

Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit...

we get the spirit the moment we are saved

 

[Douglas Summers]

I don't know why....arrogance I suppose.
The point is, each believer has an anointing to know the truth. That does not mean to know the truth solely on their own without help from others, but to know when someone is dishing out garbage and when they're serving up truth. We all have the power of discernment through the Holy Spirit who inhabits the words of scripture. That's how we can know what teacher or fellow believer knows what he's talking about and who does not, and so whether or not we should listen to them (1 John 4:1-6).
When Rome took up Christianity, It organized it the same way they ruled Rome. With an Emperor as benefactor over the people. If one would study the beginning of the Roman Government, you could change the word Rome and insert The United States, and you would see American Government. They had elections, Senate, Judges, term limits, and all of this was done by the citizens. The Government was of the free Roman citizens, They were a Democratic Republic nation of the people, with elections by the people, and term limits, and a law making body for the good of all citizens.
As time went on, the rich began to get elected and began to influence laws that would benefit their own interest as bribes and special favors took over the Republic and decayed into an Emperor and self serving government, with an Emperor as the potentate. The Pope was the head of the Church and all Bishops and priest and members were under the Pope's authority.
The church taught that the Pope was the only one who could interpret the Bible, and a Bible at each cathedral was chained to the pulpit for only the Pope. Some to this day still believe you can not read the Bible and understand it unless someone higher explains to you. But as you said, and I have experienced. (The Letter of 1 John, Chapter 1 -5). I have enjoyed your last few post, for the were Spiritual and Scriptural. The above is just a brief history of Rome and the Church. There is much more if we studied in depth.

About the Roman Empire. Rome never ceased to exist, it was broken up into smaller provinces. The Beast that was wounded (Rev. 13:1-5). The United States Government is fashioned after the Democratic Republic of the beginning Government of Rome before it had Emperors. If you will notice the next time you see the Senate floor, look at the symbols behind the podium, and the carved images on our money. As this age continues on to a one world government, the beast will be healed. (Revelation Chapter 13).

A note on The letter to the Churches in Revelation: The Ephesian were reprimanded for the deeds of the Nicolations, and in Pergamum that deed became a doctrine. The word means (over comer of the people) Instead of the Body becoming a kingdom of priest and kings along with Christ as an equal brotherhood, Christ authority was usurped and became a clergy over the so called laity. Something to ponder on that is not Scriptual.

 

[eddif]

we get the spirit the moment we are saved

Refresh my memory with scriptures or word become flesh actions, that support your statement, and void the seperate / over time presentation of the Holy Spirit Baptism (the description with spiritual gifts).

Maybe I go along with some I read about. The day of Pentecost seems to be the day of Jewish Holy Spirit baptism and Peter's visit to the Gentile household has a discussion of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit.

One tradition seems to implicate that your statement is correct.

I get the fact that finally word spread that:
We repent
We are baptised into Jesus
We receive the Holy Spirit

You can accomplish it all at one time. I have no problem understanding that from the Gentile inclusion.

I was raised to not accept all the foolishness of the Pentecostals. Then low and behold I get to privately reading Corinthians and suddenly I start speaking in some language I do not know. Local Pentecostals scared me. I didn't have any better sense than to pray I could intrepret (on my belief level). So scripture began to make more sense. So here I am years later and a few accept me as genuine and many think I am a lot off. I really want to find what others need (Jew, Gentile, strong, weak, male, female), supply it, and fade into the background. It is not about me, but about others. I decided long ago I am blown up in the flesh.

Anyway. Hook me up with your scripture support.

eddif (Mississippi redneck)

 

[JLB]

we get the spirit the moment we are saved

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-18

• ...had received the word of God, - Born Again

Scripture Text: having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God... 1 Peter 1:23

The word of God in this context is the Gospel Message. Through obeying the Gospel, we are born again.

• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. - Baptized in Water

The people in Samaria had received the word of God, and been baptized in water, but as of yet, they had not received the Holy Spirit.

• when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.

These folks had received the word of God [Gospel Message] and been Baptized in water, but as of yet the Spirit had fallen on none of them.

...Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

According to the scriptures, a person does not receive the Holy Spirit "automatically" when they are "saved', or "born again".


Which is why Paul asked some disciples... “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”


As you see, a person can in fact believe the Gospel Message, and be baptized in water, but not yet receive the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[ezra]

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

yes i did where do you think our power comes from ? our own accord ?

 

[ezra]

Refresh my memory with scriptures or word become flesh actions, that support your statement, and void the seperate / over time presentation of the Holy Spirit Baptism (the description with spiritual gifts).

Maybe I go along with some I read about. The day of Pentecost seems to be the day of Jewish Holy Spirit baptism and Peter's visit to the Gentile household has a discussion of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit.

One tradition seems to implicate that your statement is correct.

I get the fact that finally word spread that:
We repent
We are baptised into Jesus
We receive the Holy Spirit

You can accomplish it all at one time. I have no problem understanding that from the Gentile inclusion.

I was raised to not accept all the foolishness of the Pentecostals. Then low and behold I get to privately reading Corinthians and suddenly I start speaking in some language I do not know. Local Pentecostals scared me. I didn't have any better sense than to pray I could intrepret (on my belief level). So scripture began to make more sense. So here I am years later and a few accept me as genuine and many think I am a lot off. I really want to find what others need (Jew, Gentile, strong, weak, male, female), supply it, and fade into the background. It is not about me, but about others. I decided long ago I am blown up in the flesh.

Anyway. Hook me up with your scripture support.

eddif (Mississippi redneck)

Acts 1:8King James Version (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spiritthat dwelleth in you.
i am not Pentecostal there are a few areas i disagree with them on. but i have no problem with them . to say we do not get the Holy spirit the moment we are saved . makes no sense . as the Holy spirit gives us the power to live the Christian life , to overcome everyday tribulation
. being filled with the spirit is a work in progress and NOT A 1 time thing. . to many associate tongues as being filled with the spirit . that i disagree with .tongues is a Gift of the spirit. i have never spoke in tongues but i am open if thats what God wants me to do. thus i can not agree with jlb

 

[eddif]

yes i did where do you think our power comes from ? our own accord ?

"johns baptism was external johns baptism was external Christ baptism the baptism of the spirit is eternal the moment we get saved . water baptism is symbolic along wit a statement affirming our faith. we are following Christ . show scripture that says there is no need to be baptist-ed. granted water baptism does not save us nor make us to go to heaven. but if Christ was baptized so should weChrist baptism the baptism of the spirit is eternal the moment we get saved . water baptism is symbolic along wit a statement affirming our faith. we are following Christ . show scripture that says there is no need to be baptist-ed. granted water baptism does not save us nor make us to go to heaven. but if Christ was baptized so should we"

Could you one line seperate your beliefs?

I have personal problems with punctuation in long compound complex sentences, and decoding others statements.

An example from me:
I. John's baptism
A. Fear of God - repentance because of fear (?)
B. Believe in the one who comes after me
II. Jesus baptism
A. Believe in the work of Jesus on the cross
B. Believe in His resurrection from dead
C. Believe he is seated on the right hand of Father
D. Believe he would send Holy Spirit
III. Holy Spirit Baptism
A. Power to witness
B. Spiritual gifts to witness

That is probably not complete.
But 3 aspects of Godhead:
Fathers baptism
Sons baptism
Spirits baptism

I can not understand your groupings. A little clarification would help.

We are not all the same. A hand is not an ear, and the best they can do is understand they are both part of the body.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Acts 1:8King James Version (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spiritthat dwelleth in you.
i am not Pentecostal there are a few areas i disagree with them on. but i have no problem with them . to say we do not get the Holy spirit the moment we are saved . makes no sense . as the Holy spirit gives us the power to live the Christian life , to overcome everyday tribulation
. being filled with the spirit is a work in progress and NOT A 1 time thing. . to many associate tongues as being filled with the spirit . that i disagree with .tongues is a Gift of the spirit. i have never spoke in tongues but i am open if thats what God wants me to do. thus i can not agree with jlb

We were posting at the same time. This helps some. I think I see where we seperate, but I will read it several more times .

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Spirit came after the water and you want the water after the Spirit and it doesn't compute.

It computes here:

"47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. " (Acts 10:47-48 NASB)

So why doesn't it compute when I say it?

Jethro, this is what a couple of people are defending (including you).

No, I'm not defending in any way shape or form that it's impossible to repent without water.

Why would Jesus have us water baptize after you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I explained this over and over. It's a public expression of your new found faith in God. That's all. Beyond that I express my opinion that it serves a valuable purpose in getting the believer jump started into being bold and not afraid to admit he's a Christian.

 

[eddif]

ezra
Your statement
"to say we do not get the Holy spirit the moment we are saved . makes no sense . as the Holy spirit gives us thepower to live the Christian life , to overcomeeveryday tribulation"
..........
The disciples believed on Jesus before the day of Pentecost.
But
Luke 24:49 KJV
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Saved but not empowered. There are other statements about the power coming later after salvation (which is totally finished at the judgement throne - ...).

Everyone is not called into the ministry. Those who are called into the ministry are not the same. Administrators do not function as an evangelist (exactly). Not all speak in tongues (great outcry from some).

Some are called to do spaghetti suppers. Helps are not apostles. Actually this paragraph came from a sermon about not being called to do spaghetti suppers, but to preach the word in season and out of season , to exhort , to rebuke with all long suffering. The third time I heard the statement - all of a sudden it hit me that God can call whom he will to do what he wills. I still suggest the Holy Spirit is needed to get the Garlic the right strength or have gluten free pasta for those who need it.

eddif

 

[eddif]

It computes here:

"47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. " (Acts 10:47-48 NASB)

So why doesn't it compute when I say it?



No, I'm not defending in any way shape or form that it's impossible to repent without water.


I explained this over and over. It's a public expression of your new found faith in God. That's all. Beyond that I express my opinion that it serves a valuable purpose in getting the believer jump started into being bold and not afraid to admit he's a Christian.

Some things I might suggest we look at:

Peter did not know all about the Gentile he was going to see.

The Gentile had feared God (John's baptism?) (similar to John's baptism - living word - does it have to say John 's baptism?).

The Gentiles received Jesus as savior

The Gentiles spoke in tongues

So is the water baptism for?:
Repentance
Jesus salvation
Holy Spirit baptism

One of the three? Two of the three? All three?
The actions were fast enough to not really know?

Does not the Holy Spirit provide boldness / power to be a witness or Acts 4:13 KJV
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

And Jesus had promised them power.
Acts 1:8 KJV
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Is our faith in faith? Is our faith in Christ more important? Is it some of all of it?

Our dark sunshades will never let us get it all. We are not blind however .

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

Right, but the point we were addressing is he did not have to be water baptized in order to then receive justification/ salvation. He is proof that it's not true that one can only receive justification/ salvation (that is, be born again) by being water baptized, for those who are able to do that.

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not being born again. Being born again is accomplished through baptism as stated by Paul in Romans 6:3-4.

We should not throw out the truth about the believer's privilege and power to discern truth for themselves just because some believers will choose to follow their hearts instead.

Not everyone is equally equipped to discern the truth. It is astonishing to me that people who would consider it insane for someone untrained in medicine to risk his life by performing surgery on himself will not hesitate to assume that same person is completely competent in risking his eternal life on his lack of training in theology, the deceitfulness of his heart, and the eloquence of his favorite preacher. Why should we not defer to those who have been trained.

I sense this dictatorial 'don't question us' oppression in the Catholic Church and, frankly, I thank God they are not the only church to attend, as it used to be.

I sensed that same dictatorial "don't question us" in every one of my math and English grammar teachers. Every on of them insisted that I do it their way instead of applying the my power to discern the truth for myself.

Jesus prayed that we would be one. (John 17:21) By throwing off the "dictatorial" attitude of the RCC, the body of Christ has been fragmented into literally tens of thousands of sects. And that IMO is the sinful result of men submitting to the demands of their rebellious flesh.

And, no, I don't agree with everything the RCC teaches. (filioque, immaculate conception, Pertine primacy) But I do believe the undivided church had it right for the first 900 years of so.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

i read other versions they all say saved by grace through faith not water baptism

That is part of what all versions say but it is not ALL of what all versions say.

All versions report Jesus commanding that we be baptized (Mat 28:19) and well as Jesus asking the question, “...why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46) and “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15)

Jesus also said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (Jhn 3:5) and Paul makes it quite clear the being baptized fulfills the requirement of being "born of water." (Ro 6:3-4)

You have most certainly read Hebrews chapter 11 which describes the acts of the saints which were all done "by faith." Why would saint object to being obedient to Jesus' command that we be baptized and, thereby, be born again of water?

The notion of any believer refusing baptism makes no sense to me. Refusal to obey God is irrefutable evidence of someone's lack of salvation no matter how many sinner's prayers they say, how wonderfully they may speak in tongues or even if they heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead in Jesus name.

Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Mat 7:22-23)

So when anyone takes a piece of the scripture rather than the whole counsel of God, he is prone to err. That is the insidious falsehood of the "proof text." It is always a piece lifted out of the context of a sentence or of a paragraph or of a chapter or of a book or of the entire Bible. It is necessary that we consider the entire word of God not just the verses that answer the questions in the handouts we are given in our Sunday School or "New Christian" class or home Bible study. Unfortunately, we tend to believe that the one verse answer is the proper way to understand the Bible because that's the way we were taught at first. Well, now it's time to graduate to more advanced methods of study. It's time to consider EVERYthing that scripture has to say about a given subject so that we might "...all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph 4:12-13)

Otherwise we can come up with nonsense like: And he (Judas) ... went and hanged himself. (Mat 27:5) Go, and do thou likewise. (Luk 10:37b)

Do you (not you personally, the generic "you") want to prove a false doctrine? Just get your "proof texts" in order and go on TV. 2


I think, perhaps, part of the confusion is the concept of Grace as "unmerited favor."

Consider: Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Does that mean that God's "unmerited favor" was extended to Jesus? Did Jesus need God's "unmerited favor"? Certainly not.

The word "Grace" does not refer to our lack of merit; it refers to the power of God to save. And God applies that power to save to whoever will believe AND OBEY him. (Because belief unaccompanied by obedience is the condition of demons, not Christians. (Jas 2:19)

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

That is part of what all versions say but it is not ALL of what all versions say.

All versions report Jesus commanding that we be baptized (Mat 28:19) and well as Jesus asking the question, “...why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46) and “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15)

Jesus also said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (Jhn 3:5) and Paul makes it quite clear the being baptized fulfills the requirement of being "born of water." (Ro 6:3-4)

You have most certainly read Hebrews chapter 11 which describes the acts of the saints which were all done "by faith." Why would saint object to being obedient to Jesus' command that we be baptized and, thereby, be born again of water?

The notion of any believer refusing baptism makes no sense to me. Refusal to obey God is irrefutable evidence of someone's lack of salvation no matter how many sinner's prayers they say, how wonderfully they may speak in tongues or even if they heal the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead in Jesus name.

Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Mat 7:22-23)

So when anyone takes a piece of the scripture rather than the whole counsel of God, he is prone to err. That is the insidious falsehood of the "proof text." It is always a piece lifted out of the context of a sentence or of a paragraph or of a chapter or of a book or of the entire Bible. It is necessary that we consider the entire word of God not just the verses that answer the questions in the handouts we are given in our Sunday School or "New Christian" class or home Bible study. Unfortunately, we tend to believe that the one verse answer is the proper way to understand the Bible because that's the way we were taught at first. Well, now it's time to graduate to more advanced methods of study. It's time to consider EVERYthing that scripture has to say about a given subject so that we might "...all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph 4:12-13)

Otherwise we can come up with nonsense like: And he (Judas) ... went and hanged himself. (Mat 27:5) Go, and do thou likewise. (Luk 10:37b)

Do you (not you personally, the generic "you") want to prove a false doctrine? Just get your "proof texts" in order and go on TV. 2


I think, perhaps, part of the confusion is the concept of Grace as "unmerited favor."

Consider: Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Does that mean that God's "unmerited favor" was extended to Jesus? Did Jesus need God's "unmerited favor"? Certainly not.

The word "Grace" does not refer to our lack of merit; it refers to the power of God to save. And God applies that power to save to whoever will believe AND OBEY him. (Because belief unaccompanied by obedience is the condition of demons, not Christians. (Jas 2:19)

iakov the fool

i simply am NOT going to keep going on this subject .if you feel water baptism is how to be saved. go for it my self i been Redeemed by the Blood of the lamb. HAVE FUN GETTING WET

 

[Jim Parker]

if you feel water baptism is how to be saved. go for it

Regardless of what I might feel, (I do not make decisions based on emotion - OK the Harley, but not otherwise) I know that I cannot be saved if I refuse to obey Jesus command. He commanded that I be baptized and I have complied with His command.

iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not being born again.

....and so goes Christianity right down the toilet.

‘You must be born again.’8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:7-8 NASB)

Not everyone is equally equipped to discern the truth. It is astonishing to me that people who would consider it insane for someone untrained in medicine to risk his life by performing surgery on himself will not hesitate to assume that same person is completely competent in risking his eternal life on his lack of training in theology, the deceitfulness of his heart, and the eloquence of his favorite preacher. Why should we not defer to those who have been trained.

I never said, or meant to imply, that we don't have to learn from trained people. You added that to what I said. What I'm defending is the measure of wisdom and knowledge of the chap sitting right next to you.

I sensed that same dictatorial "don't question us" in every one of my math and English grammar teachers. Every on of them insisted that I do it their way instead of applying the my power to discern the truth for myself.

And yet aren't you the one who said to not read the KJV Bible because our language has changed?

Jesus prayed that we would be one. (John 17:21)

And of course this means if I submit to your doctrine and your sect, then all will be well (the hypocrisy here is overwhelming).
All believers are one by the Holy Spirit. Doctrinal differences will not be resolved until we enter the kingdom. No single believer, or church has pegged the complete and total truth. We will all be learning until the day we die.

By throwing off the "dictatorial" attitude of the RCC, the body of Christ has been fragmented into literally tens of thousands of sects.

And thank God for it.
It's good that false doctrine is segregated and isolated from the truth these days. And in case you think that fragmentation is such a terrible thing and should be put to an end...

"14“Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind." (Matthew 15:14 NASB)

And, no, I don't agree with everything the RCC teaches. (filioque, immaculate conception, Pertine primacy)

And so we can just flush everything you've said.
In other words, there really is no true, undefiled, authoritative church, doctrinally speaking. So, as spiritual people who can see, we each have the power and the responsibility to discern who is speaking truth and who is not, and gather all the pieces of truth together to form our doctrine from the Bible alone. Apparently, from your statement above, you do this too. So we're not in disagreement at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The word "Grace" does not refer to our lack of merit

In regard to justification, yes, grace does mean 'lack of merit' because justification is through the forgiveness of sins, not the merit of work completed. Sin debt can not be paid with doing righteous things. It can only be removed through the forgiveness of that debt (which is why I can NEVER be Catholic).

The problem with grams' argument is she is responding to the erroneous Catholic doctrine of works justification with the common, but equally erroneous, teaching that because justification is by forgiveness of sin, all by itself, not by works, we don't have to do anything after we have been justified by faith, not knowing that a lack of works is potentially the sign that the person has never been justified by faith in the first place (or has lost that justification through a subsequent unbelief).

 

[ezra]

{
. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not being born again.
....and so goes Christianity right down the toilet.} pretty much so

 

[eddif]

We are getting to the point of the discussion that gets really beyond, beyond.

The man that we are never is wonderful this side of eternity future. The death of Jesus keeps the man part of us safe for now.

The mind part of us (where Holy Spirit evidently abides) has the kingdom moving into us. This kingdom experience allows a relationship with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The scriptures we read have the complex battle of the Spirit against our flesh understood, but our mind struggles to understand sin that dwells in us.
Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Now this is the point we go into different ways (not that we should seperate,but we sometimes do).

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There are multiple areas in us. You have to understand what area you are talking about in scripture. If the scripture is speaking of our new mind of Christ, you can not transfer the thought to the flesh. Really strange. God is seperate but agreement is such that they are one. We are one being, composed of different areas. The law shows this by the seperate areas for common people and the priestly area. It never was really about a physical temple, but about our makeup.

I must leave the spirit right now and go to work.

eddif

 

[Roro1972]

Matt 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1 Corin 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
These are not mutually exclusive, the first in Matt; Jesus spoke in person the second is the teaching of Jesus.