Understanding Christianity and Islam

[francisdesales]

Allah has his own unique identity, which is quite different from the God of the Bible. Muslims claim that these differences are the result of "changes" introduced into the Christian Bible after it was written. In this way, they claim to be the authentic representatives of the religion of the Bible. But most Christians believe, on the contrary, that these differences only prove that Christianity and Islam are two very distinct religions.

In other words, Muslims claim they know the One True God better than Christians, and vice versus. Thus, we both are monotheistic, worshiping the same God, but defining that God differently... Islam and Christianity are two different religions, but there are common threads, among them, the worship of one God who created the universe.

Is there another God who created the universe???

The unique identity of Allah begins long before the time of Mohammed, in pre-Muslim Arabia. Allah was one of the 360 tribal gods worshipped in the Kaaba (in Mecca, the holiest site in Islam). Allah was regarded as a high god over the other gods. Mohammed's reform removed all the other gods, and retained only Allah (along with many of the rituals still practiced today during the pilgrimage to Mecca; these include the tawaf, in which Muslims walk around the Kaaba seven times).

Yes, this sounds quite familiar to how Judaism gradually became monotheistic, as well... There are a number of references in the OT to "gods" by Jews, such as in the Psalms.

This in itself is not a problem. The God of the Bible allowed himself to be identified in some ways with the El of the Canaanites. But although Mohammed claimed to be preaching the God of the Bible, he denied central Christian doctrines such as the deity of Jesus Christ and his atoning death, and the Trinity (tri-unity) of God. He also denied Old Testament teachings, such as that Isaac was the son Abraham nearly sacrificed, substituting in his place Ishmael.

I agree that Islam teaches some fundamental errors. That is not my issue. Islam is NOT completely in error, that is my point.

Muslims call Allah a god of mercy, yet he often appears harsh and cruel compared to the God of the Bible. This appears in the removal of body parts as punishment under Muslim Sharia law (such as hands for theft) and the fatalistic attitude toward debilitating injury and sickness as the will of Allah. Generally accepted Muslim attitudes toward leadership, inevitably modeled on the character of Allah, have historically produced many tyrants and dictators, as can be seen today in the Muslim world.

Tina, have you actually read the Old Testament??? Do you see some similarity with how the Jews acted???

This is not to mention the whole theology of jihad (holy war) that leads Muslims to attack Christians (as is happening right now in Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, and the southern Philippines), nor Muslim moral doctrines, such as the permission of "temporary" wives (legalized fornication) and permission to beat disobedient wives.

The Jews also have "Holy Wars" in the Sacred Scriptures.

As to the treatment of wives, I can't say if ancient Jews were much better, probably the attitude of the time. Because Islam is a religion of the book, that the Koran is LITERALLY the Word of God not subject to interpretation (unlike in Christian and Jewish realms), some of the provisions for the treatment of wives continues to carry over. Remember, in their minds, they are dealing with GOD'S ACTUAL WORDS, not words through a human author! They are not changeable. We don't read Scriptures in the same way, thus, we no longer kill recalcitrant children or those who take the name of God in vain, and other such OT things. Slavery is no longer acceptable, while it was in the Bible. We approach the Bible a bit differently than the Muslim approaches the Koran. This explains why they retain some strange laws - they claim to be literally from God. Being submissive to God, they naturally will fight to maintain God's never-changing Law.

Regards

 

[Heidi]

I agree that Islam teaches some fundamental errors. That is not my issue. Islam is NOT completely in error, that is my point.

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and neither can a bad tree bear good fruit." "If Beezelbub is the head of the household then how much more the members of his household!". The Koran is either coming from God or Satan. It can't be both good and bad.

 

[Adullam]

francisdesales, Why did Christ die?

to show the depths of His love for mankind, as St. John relates about "there is no greater love than this..."

[quote="Ed the Ned":1otut416]

Why do we send missionaries into Muslim countries to proclaim the gospel?

To bring them the Gospel, the Good News, that God loves us so much that He gave His only Son up to die. Islam does not teach that Good News. They are in desperate need of a Personal God Who loves.

Our God has one plan for us and that plan is set out in scripture. (The Bible). Not the Quran, not through the "prophet" Mohamed. We cannot proclaim a social or politically acceptable gospel just so we can pursue peace.

I have not said any such thing. Have I said anything preaching relativity? All I said is that Islam worships the same God. I didn't say they had the entire Gospel or that they know God as well as Christians or that they can be saved through Islamic teachings that are particular to Islam...

By saying that the Muslim god is the same God as our God is ludicrous.

Rather than calling this ludicrous, you might want to explain WHY? Because it doesn't suit your personal fancy?

Are the mormon teachings acceptable to you as well. We are warned about false teachings and deception, yet to keep the peace we have these multi-religion conferences where the Christians sell out to be a more acceptable religion, tolerant of all the world has to offer.

You erect a false slippery slope. I have no problems accepting that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, and even other Christians, have knowledge, to various degrees, of God Himself. None of us has a monopoly on who God is. I do believe that some religions are more in error than others. But that doesn't mean I am selling out. If that were true, I wouldn't be arguing with Protestants on this forum...

None of what I have said denies the Good News and that it should be taught to every man and woman. God desires ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the TRUTH. But that doesn't mean we need to deny EVERYTHING that people believe of different religions. Paul recognized that even the Gentiles have a Law written in their hearts, placed their by the Spirit. We believe that the Spirit works where He will, even if it means outside of our visible community. This does not vindicate other religions as equal to Christianity, just a recognition that ALL religions have SOME truth - they strive to union with God. That's a start to begin preaching the Good News to them.

Regards[/quote:1otut416]


Amen!

 

[francisdesales]

I agree that Islam teaches some fundamental errors. That is not my issue. Islam is NOT completely in error, that is my point.

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and neither can a bad tree bear good fruit." "If Beezelbub is the head of the household then how much more the members of his household!". The Koran is either coming from God or Satan. It can't be both good and bad.

The Koran is a man-made book. I don't see it as "either God or Satan"... That is a false dilemna.

It is not uncommon for "religious people" to vilify those of different beliefs by playing the "satan" card.

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

I agree that Islam teaches some fundamental errors. That is not my issue. Islam is NOT completely in error, that is my point.

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and neither can a bad tree bear good fruit." "If Beezelbub is the head of the household then how much more the members of his household!". The Koran is either coming from God or Satan. It can't be both good and bad.

The Koran is a man-made book. I don't see it as "either God or Satan"... That is a false dilemna.

It is not uncommon for "religious people" to vilify those of different beliefs by playing the "satan" card.

Regards

How do you consider the Quran Man-made any more than the Bible? Disregarding the claims of others do not make such claims true or false. Jesus Christ never spoke of there never being any more scriptures.

 

[francisdesales]

How do you consider the Quran Man-made any more than the Bible? Disregarding the claims of others do not make such claims true or false. Jesus Christ never spoke of there never being any more scriptures.

I have already subjected the New Testament and the Koran to scrutiny before my conversion, and I find the Koran wanting - not only in historical evidence that it truly is from God, but that it contradicts what already is accepted as the Word of God. I do not accept that God desires that women remain so incredibly submissive to their husbands in the Koran, when in Ephesians 5, there is no such indication, quite the opposite. The Sacred Scriptures speak of equality and complimentarity. The Koran is a reversion, which is not uncommon to the Koran. It is as if God gradually reveals Himself as a God of Love, culminating in the revelation given by Christ, and then He changes His mind in the Koran, taking back the freedom and equality given to women, reverting to killing as a manner of advancing the agenda. This, of course, is just one example where the Koran, for me, fails the test of the claim that it is entirely from God.

I would ask you to compare the first communities of Christians to the first communities of Islam and see where they differ and where their focus lays. The later appears to lay with advancing their political agenda - by the sword - if necessary. This, naturally, conveniently ignores what has gone before as the Word of God, which the Koran admits the Bible is.

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

How do you consider the Quran Man-made any more than the Bible? Disregarding the claims of others do not make such claims true or false. Jesus Christ never spoke of there never being any more scriptures.

I have already subjected the New Testament and the Koran to scrutiny before my conversion, and I find the Koran wanting - not only in historical evidence that it truly is from God, but that it contradicts what already is accepted as the Word of God. I do not accept that God desires that women remain so incredibly submissive to their husbands in the Koran, when in Ephesians 5, there is no such indication, quite the opposite. The Sacred Scriptures speak of equality and complimentarity. The Koran is a reversion, which is not uncommon to the Koran. It is as if God gradually reveals Himself as a God of Love, culminating in the revelation given by Christ, and then He changes His mind in the Koran, taking back the freedom and equality given to women, reverting to killing as a manner of advancing the agenda. This, of course, is just one example where the Koran, for me, fails the test of the claim that it is entirely from God.

I would ask you to compare the first communities of Christians to the first communities of Islam and see where they differ and where their focus lays. The later appears to lay with advancing their political agenda - by the sword - if necessary. This, naturally, conveniently ignores what has gone before as the Word of God, which the Koran admits the Bible is.

Regards

The first communities of The Christians and The Muslims were identical the Muslims would not fight no matter how much they were persecuted or killed and the proof of this is in the Quran itself:

(2) To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #39)

This verse shows that they previously had not fought now notice why and the reason


40 (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

In the Bible it says that women are to submit to there husbands the Quran says:

(10) Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #97)

By the way Christianity could not have grown the way it did until it was accepted as part of a governing Body such as constantine which made Christianity the religion of his kingdom even by the sword, but in Islam it is stated:

(1) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)

Sometimes you must really study to know. You act as though Jesus didn't say that he came not to bring peace, but a sword!

 

[bodhitharta]

A witness of God's greatness named "Karmarie"

God is good! I find it interesting how both Christians and Muslims both await the coming of the antichrist and in the return of Jesus and the judgment day. Despite the differences!
Theres a bible chapter which I was shown one day:

Jeremiah 35
The Obedient Rechabites

1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, saying, 2 “Go to the house of the Rechabites, speak to them, and bring them into the house of the LORD, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.â€Â

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habazziniah, his brothers and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites, 4 and I brought them into the house of the LORD, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door.

5 Then I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites bowls full of wine, and cups; and I said to them, “Drink wine.â€Â

6 But they said, “We will drink no wine, for Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, commanded us, saying, ‘You shall drink no wine, you nor your sons, forever. 7 You shall not build a house, sow seed, plant a vineyard, nor have any of these; but all your days you shall dwell in tents, that you may live many days in the land where you are sojourners.’

8 Thus we have obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, in all that he charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, or our daughters, 9 nor to build ourselves houses to dwell in; nor do we have vineyard, field, or seed. 10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us. 11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, ‘Come, let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans and for fear of the army of the Syrians.’ So we dwell at Jerusalem.â€Â

12 Then came the word of the LORD to Jeremiah, saying, 13 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “Will you not receive instruction to obey My words?†says the LORD. 14 “The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, which he commanded his sons, not to drink wine, are performed; for to this day they drink none, and obey their father’s commandment. But although I have spoken to you, rising early and speaking, you did not obey Me. 15 I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.

16 Surely the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them, but this people has not obeyed Me.â€Â’

17 “Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will bring on Judah and on all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the doom that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them but they have not heard, and I have called to them but they have not answered.’â€Â

18 And Jeremiah said to the house of the Rechabites, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Because you have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts and done according to all that he commanded you, 19 therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Jonadab the son of Rechab shalnot lack a man to stand before Me forever.â€Â’â€Â

It is like Muslims being obediant to Muhammad their ancestor, they also dont drink wine and are obediant,

blessings
karmarie

 

[wavy]

I have already subjected the New Testament and the Koran to scrutiny before my conversion, and I find the Koran wanting - not only in historical evidence that it truly is from God, but that it contradicts what already is accepted as the Word of God.

But that of course is begging the question.

I do not accept that God desires that women remain so incredibly submissive to their husbands in the Koran, when in Ephesians 5, there is no such indication, quite the opposite. The Sacred Scriptures speak of equality and complimentarity. The Koran is a reversion, which is not uncommon to the Koran. It is as if God gradually reveals Himself as a God of Love, culminating in the revelation given by Christ, and then He changes His mind in the Koran, taking back the freedom and equality given to women, reverting to killing as a manner of advancing the agenda. This, of course, is just one example where the Koran, for me, fails the test of the claim that it is entirely from God.

Women are equal in the bible? Yahweh never kills or commands killing (even to the level of genocide) in the bible? What abridged, censored version of the bible are you reading?

I would ask you to compare the first communities of Christians to the first communities of Islam and see where they differ and where their focus lays. The later appears to lay with advancing their political agenda - by the sword - if necessary. This, naturally, conveniently ignores what has gone before as the Word of God, which the Koran admits the Bible is.

Ah, so it's about the first Christian communities, I see. Just sweep all that inconvenient stuff in the OT under the rug...I understand. ;)

Btw, whoever said Abraham was Jewish is totally misled. He was an Aramaen, or by another account, an Amorite, not a Jew.


Finis,
Eric

 

[mutzrein]

What does it matter what the purpose of any religion is?

Keeping the ten commandments can't save you. Islam can't save you. Buddhism can't save you. Mormonism can't save you. Judaism can't save you. Even christianity can't save you.

Salvation is only found in and through - Christ Jesus - who came to give man life.

Can the One who sent Jesus save you?

Why, yes of course - I am His son - a co-heir with Christ of our Father's kingdom.

 

[francisdesales]

I have already subjected the New Testament and the Koran to scrutiny before my conversion, and I find the Koran wanting - not only in historical evidence that it truly is from God, but that it contradicts what already is accepted as the Word of God.

But that of course is begging the question.

Not at all, as Islam accepts that the Bible is God's Word. Thus, the Koran disagrees with what has already come before it... Did God change His mind? Does God pine for the "good ol' days" when men married 3 wives and killed those who got in their way??? This, apparently, is what the Koran teaches as acceptable...

I do not accept that God desires that women remain so incredibly submissive to their husbands in the Koran, when in Ephesians 5, there is no such indication, quite the opposite. The Sacred Scriptures speak of equality and complimentarity. The Koran is a reversion, which is not uncommon to the Koran. It is as if God gradually reveals Himself as a God of Love, culminating in the revelation given by Christ, and then He changes His mind in the Koran, taking back the freedom and equality given to women, reverting to killing as a manner of advancing the agenda. This, of course, is just one example where the Koran, for me, fails the test of the claim that it is entirely from God.

Women are equal in the bible? Yahweh never kills or commands killing (even to the level of genocide) in the bible? What abridged, censored version of the bible are you reading?

Ah, that's not quite what I said - maybe you should read what I wrote again...

I said God gradually revealed Himself. The New Testament is a culmination of God's revelation in the Person of Christ. God made provisions with the Jews as He trained them to accept only One God and to make them a People set apart, a People who turned aside from false gods. This took a lot of time and was gradual. With Christ, we have the teachings of God as they were meant to be, for example, Christ speaks to the Jews about divorce and how God ALLOWED Moses to give divorces to the stubborn Jews who were not ready yet for the fullness of the Gospel message. But now (with Christ), the teachings of "one flesh" are given to the people.

Islam would have us go back to the days of Moses, where the people, according to the highly esteemed Jesus Christ, were "hard-hearted"...

This is just one example. We could also speak of Jesus' teachings of "turning the other cheek" vs. "an eye for an eye" - another reversion back to when the people were "stubborn".

God doesn't want that from us, that's not how we fully realize that we are made in the divine image.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The first communities of The Christians and The Muslims were identical the Muslims would not fight no matter how much they were persecuted or killed and the proof of this is in the Quran itself:

(2) To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #39)

This verse shows that they previously had not fought now notice why and the reason

40 (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

I think your history on the first Christians vs. the first Moslems is a bit skewed. Christians, as even related in the Bible, willingly gave their lives for the sake of Christ. There is no "permission to fight because they were wronged" anywhere in the New Testament. Quite the opposite. There is no "eye for an eye" in the New Testament. Christians were expelled from their homes and put to death, but I don't see anywhere in secular history where Christians "fought back" militarily. No, they were taught to PRAY for their persecutors, to convert them through humble submission to God, rather than the sword...

In the Bible it says that women are to submit to there husbands the Quran says:

And men are to submit to their wives as Christ gave His life for the Church. As many, you only quote the male perspective. The Scriptures tell us that men are to offer themselves totally to their wives, as well. Your quote doesn't speak of equality - it speaks of righteousness and that God accepts it from either man or woman. What does that have to do with how men SHOULD treat their wives???

By the way Christianity could not have grown the way it did until it was accepted as part of a governing Body such as constantine which made Christianity the religion of his kingdom even by the sword, but in Islam it is stated:

Christianity had already been a major religion before Constantine's Edict of Milan. Would Christianity had taken its present form as an outlaw religion for 2000 years? Probably not. But the doctrines and practices were more or less in place before Constantine.

As to "religion of his kingdom by the sword", can you provide some historical citations that state that Constantine sent troops to people's houses to become Christian or die??? Then consider Islam...

(1) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)

it is difficult to ascertain what Islam truly teaches on this matter, as her adherents have done everything but allow people to freely choose to become Muslim (or remain Muslim...). What happens to the Koran's dictates of killing someone who decides to become Christian? Is there any such Christian idea if a Christian decides to become Muslim?

Sometimes you must really study to know. You act as though Jesus didn't say that he came not to bring peace, but a sword!

He didn't say He came to bring a sword!!! "He did not come to bring peace" is meant, in context, to mean that when one hears the Gospel, one must decide. And this conversion often is not peaceful. Father rises up against son, as the Jewish son decides to become Christian. Mother against daughter, etc. There is absolutely no talk of a sword to ensure that one becomes or remains Christian... The "war" is the inner war with past convictions, as well as the outer "war" as one learns they are not accepted. But it doesn't follow that we achieve this peace through actual physical violence.

This is just another example of how Islam is a reversion backwards, against the progress of God's gradual revelation of His Good News - that He desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth, a Truth acheived by following a particular way of life that is foreign to most, a way of unconditional love.

bodhitharta, I have no doubts that there are many good and holy Muslims who worship the true God. As you can see from my past posts, I have defended several of the basic tenets of Islam. I do believe that Islam does teach some error, but despite that, many are indeed true seekers of God. I am wondering how much better the world would be, however, if the world truly followed the dictates and teachings of Christ, to love others unconditionally and submit to God. I think Muslims have the later down, but the former, I wonder if the Koran does not teach something else at times...

Regards

 

[Adullam]

Some may ask...why does Islam come AFTER Christianity? Well, as I have stated, Islam is a challenge to the lawlessness exhibited in the church, even to this very day. As long as lawlessness grips the church, there will be a need for this contrast and even confrontation. How we handle this confrontation reveals who we are and what we have become.

The sword that Jesus brought to earth is not a literal sword, nor is the fire. It is the truth. The truth is sharper than any two-edged sword.

Islam is a way of righteousness, much like the Old Testament was an instruction in righteousness....it picks up from there. There is not a supernatural empowering to walk in as with the disciples of Christ...no, there is submission to God as men already are. It is a religion based on the best we can do. The fact that most Christians have been poor witnesses of the resurrection life doesn't help to demonstrate the extreme difference and superiority that the nature of God WITHIN man through regeneration has over the nature of man at it's best. Christians have not been faithful enough to be sure. Most never grow beyong the selfish baby stage, thereby remaining indistinguishable from other religionists. In fact, Christians often seem weaker and more wordly than many followers of other religions. This is a shame on the upward call of Christ. The fact is that very few professing believers in Jesus are actually disciples. The poor quality of the many has watered down the witness of the few. The Lord is certainly not pleased.



Christianity builds on the Old Testament righteousness....as a further revelation of God's plan....in true holiness through a divine birth into a new nature. This is the culmination of God's way with man. This can never be improved upon. We are not just to believe in Jesus, we are to walk as He walked, becoming as He is....full of grace and power!

 

[bodhitharta]

What does it matter what the purpose of any religion is?

Keeping the ten commandments can't save you. Islam can't save you. Buddhism can't save you. Mormonism can't save you. Judaism can't save you. Even christianity can't save you.

Salvation is only found in and through - Christ Jesus - who came to give man life.

Can the One who sent Jesus save you?

Why, yes of course - I am His son - a co-heir with Christ of our Father's kingdom.

Then it is not Jesus saving you it is The Father. Remember you are going through Jesus to get to the Father but it is the Father doing the saving. But God "Our Father" Can and has saved before Jesus was born and after Jesus was taken up to Him, God saves who he pleases how He pleases . Whne Jesus was sent the only way to the Father was through Jesus, When Moses was sent the only way to the Father was Moses. When God sends anyone they are the door and not the Goal.

 

[bodhitharta]

Not at all, as Islam accepts that the Bible is God's Word. Thus, the Koran disagrees with what has already come before it... Did God change His mind? Does God pine for the "good ol' days" when men married 3 wives and killed those who got in their way??? This, apparently, is what the Koran teaches as acceptable...


Ah, that's not quite what I said - maybe you should read what I wrote again...

I said God gradually revealed Himself. The New Testament is a culmination of God's revelation in the Person of Christ. God made provisions with the Jews as He trained them to accept only One God and to make them a People set apart, a People who turned aside from false gods. This took a lot of time and was gradual. With Christ, we have the teachings of God as they were meant to be, for example, Christ speaks to the Jews about divorce and how God ALLOWED Moses to give divorces to the stubborn Jews who were not ready yet for the fullness of the Gospel message. But now (with Christ), the teachings of "one flesh" are given to the people.

Islam would have us go back to the days of Moses, where the people, according to the highly esteemed Jesus Christ, were "hard-hearted"...

This is just one example. We could also speak of Jesus' teachings of "turning the other cheek" vs. "an eye for an eye" - another reversion back to when the people were "stubborn".

God doesn't want that from us, that's not how we fully realize that we are made in the divine image.

Regards

What you fail to have understood is that Jesus was talking about "Divorce" not Marriage which People such as Abraham, Moses, Jacob and Isaac had more than one. But God did not like when a man took on some other wife and turned away one of the others and that is written in the Law.

Jesus was the one who told his disciples to purchase swords, and saying to turn the other cheek has nothing to do with non-violence it has to do with tolerance. Jesus also said if your right hand offends you (Causes you to sin) CUT IT OFF isn't that violent? but the wisdom is it is better to lose a limb than it is to lose your soul in Hell. Jesus also didn't turn the other cheek or tolerate the merchants selling in the temple when he drove them out with with a whip and destroying there personal property he didn't turn the other cheek nor did he apologize. This all sounds very Islamic so maybe you are correct on gradual unveiling but the fact is Christ was preparing the people for Peace(Islam) but he himself said he didn't come to bring it, he said:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

But you seem to believe that violence is somehow evil and with that belief you judge God Himself. God Himself commanded the complete anihilation of the Amelekites and you can't blame that on the hard hearts of the people because they did not want to do it and King Saul left their King alive and God got angry with King Saul and the prophet Samuel killed the King himself. You should study more

 

[francisdesales]

What you fail to have understood is that Jesus was talking about "Divorce" not Marriage which People such as Abraham, Moses, Jacob and Isaac had more than one. But God did not like when a man took on some other wife and turned away one of the others and that is written in the Law.

Jesus speaks about "one flesh" between the man and woman. That is a monogomous relationship between one man and one woman. The idea that a man should have more than one wife is not strictly commanded by God - it is allowed temporarily. During Jesus' time, Jewish men no longer kept several wives. But apparently, the Koran says that "God" now has changed His mind and that men should have several wives. This is not the equality that God preaches in the very beginning of the Bible between man and woman.

Jesus was the one who told his disciples to purchase swords, and saying to turn the other cheek has nothing to do with non-violence it has to do with tolerance.

Tolerance means are non-violent, are they not??? An "eye for an eye" that Islam appears to justify is not "tolerance". It is making sure that our pride is satiated. It is a reversion to pagan attitudes, not Godly attitudes.

Jesus also said if your right hand offends you (Causes you to sin) CUT IT OFF isn't that violent?

That is hyperbole meant to get the attention of people and realize the importance of striving for the Kingdom. Christ said He does not want a lukewarm disciple, but one who places Him first. God is to come first - and anything that gets in our way should be "cut off". It would be ludicrous to suggest that we are to literally cut our arms off - since Christ said sin comes from within our hearts, not our arms... Sin would remain despite our lack of arms... :gah

Jesus also didn't turn the other cheek or tolerate the merchants selling in the temple when he drove them out with with a whip and destroying there personal property he didn't turn the other cheek nor did he apologize.

Yes, zeal for God. How many people did Jesus kill in the Temple??? If we look at the prophets from the OT, we also have the same zeal, sans the killing. Now, compare that to Mohemmed and his followers. Thus, I have a difficult time believing that Islam is a "continuation" of God's revelation...

This all sounds very Islamic so maybe you are correct on gradual unveiling but the fact is Christ was preparing the people for Peace(Islam).

I thought Islam meant "submission", presumably to God. "Peace"??? You would be hard pressed to convince a non-Moslim that Islam is a religion of peace, my friend. It's very beginning is steeped in warfare and killing, and its dictates stress that righteous killing (for example, one who decides to convert away from Islam) is a good thing. This is in contradiction to what God has already taught us. A legitimate "continuation" of God's revelation would not contradict itself.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That is not a literal sword. If so, Christ could have easily called upon His followers (or angels, as He said in John's gospel) to save him from death, as Mohemmed did. There is absolutely no evidence that Christ's saying about a sword was taken literally. It is a call to fight the inner war, as I have already explained.

But you seem to believe that violence is somehow evil and with that belief you judge God Himself.

You misunderstand me, I didn't say violence, in of itself, is evil. Self-defense is not evil, for example. I meant that violence for the sake of advancing an agenda or to "one-up" someone is evil. An "eye for an eye" is not acceptable, although, admittedly, some forget that and don't practice it very well.

God Himself commanded the complete anihilation of the Amelekites and you can't blame that on the hard hearts of the people because they did not want to do it and King Saul left their King alive and God got angry with King Saul and the prophet Samuel killed the King himself.

That's another subject entirely, on whether GOD HIMSELF commanded this annihilation or whether we are reading a human interpretation of the aftermath... At the end of the day, I am Christian and I follow the tenets taught to me by the Apostolic Church - we don't believe that God commands men of God to kill other men. It is too easy to self-justify one's actions to push forth an agenda and call it "God's will".

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

francisdesales

It seems to me you have decided to ignore the bible and pick and choose what you like:

First of all Jewish Polygamy continued to the 11th century and you forget that Jesus understood that Married men additionally married the wives of their brothers if they died having no children. These were additional wives.

Your quote about having One wife referred to bishops. The Quran does not alter the bible's position on Polygamy in any way.

The Quran actually says exactly what the bible says about polygamy.

Why is it you keep thinking God "evolves" like some animal? God commanded and assisted in the violence upon enemies. Your whole belief in Salvation through Jesus relies on the violence of men, you would have to love those who you believe killed Jesus for if they had "turned the other cheek or tolerated Jesus" according to what you believe you would be condemned to hell, right?

So your whole belief is dependent on salvation through violence.

 

[Tina]

Your quote about having One wife referred to bishops. The Quran does not alter the bible's position on Polygamy in any way.

The Quran actually says exactly what the bible says about polygamy.

I beg to differ. This was discussed in another thread but you seem to continue to be ignorant. One wife does not refer to just bishops. On the direct contrary, you'd be surprised to know that Catholics actually FORBID bishops from getting married, do you know that ? But let's not get into that here, let's just stick to Biblical Christianity, which is different from Catholicism.

God allowed polygamy in those days because of His desire to populate the earth and cause humanity to grow much faster. Besides in those days, it was far better for women living in a polygamist households, than alternatives such as prostitution and slavery.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Not “wives†…. Not “many fleshesâ€Â. That was God’s original intention, otherwise He would have created many Eves for Adam, not just one.


Ephesians 5:23-33
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.†This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.


It’s obvious from the above passage that Paul is specifically talking about ONE wife for one husband. If polygamy were allowable, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.


Deuteronomy 17:17
Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

Titus 1:6
if a man is blameless, the husband of ONE wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.


In most nations today, polygamy is against the law, and we are to obey governing authorities God instituted over us.


Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,

-

 

[bodhitharta]

Your quote about having One wife referred to bishops. The Quran does not alter the bible's position on Polygamy in any way.

The Quran actually says exactly what the bible says about polygamy.

I beg to differ. This was discussed in another thread but you seem to continue to be ignorant. One wife does not refer to just bishops. On the direct contrary, you'd be surprised to know that Catholics actually FORBID bishops from getting married, do you know that ? But let's not get into that here, let's just stick to Biblical Christianity, which is different from Catholicism.

God allowed polygamy in those days because of His desire to populate the earth and cause humanity to grow much faster. Besides in those days, it was far better for women living in a polygamist households, than alternatives such as prostitution and slavery.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Not “wives†…. Not “many fleshesâ€Â. That was God’s original intention, otherwise He would have created many Eves for Adam, not just one.


Ephesians 5:23-33
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.†This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.


It’s obvious from the above passage that Paul is specifically talking about ONE wife for one husband. If polygamy were allowable, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.


Deuteronomy 17:17
Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

Titus 1:6
if a man is blameless, the husband of ONE wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.


In most nations today, polygamy is against the law, and we are to obey governing authorities God instituted over us.


Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,

-

Tina,

According to your own admission and quoting of scripture Polygamy is allowed wherever governing authorities approve of it.

Tina Wrote: God allowed polygamy in those days because of His desire to populate the earth and cause humanity to grow much faster. Besides in those days, it was far better for women living in a polygamist households, than alternatives such as prostitution and slavery.

So in many places today where war has killed many men and left many women without any protector or provider you don't think these women have a right to marry a man who has another wife?

Also, you said that a person cannot be one flesh with more than one person, then how is it we all can be one with God.

I think you think polyfamy is a sexual issue instead of a social issue.

 

[bodhitharta]

By the way,

A man having one wife is predominantly a Roman idea for they believed in goddesses and a worshipful type of relationship with one woman, did you know that is where we get the word ROMANtic and ROMANce.