Understanding Christianity and Islam

[Tina]

Are you saying there were no polygamous men in Jesus's day? Why didn't Jesus say that having many wives is wrong, why didn't he condemn Abraham, david, Solomon, Jacob or any other for practicing polygamy and if you consider polygamy wrong then you have to feel that there is no real 12 tribes of Israel as they didn't all come through the ORIGINAL wife.

Matthew 19:3-9
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?†And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.†They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?†He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.â€Â


Polygamy reduces the role of the woman in marriage to that of a mistress. It is true that several Old Testament characters engaged in Polygamy, but a careful study of these cases indicates the terrible consequences attached to going outside the will of God in marriage. In the passage from Matthew 19 above, Jesus stated that the reason God overlooked divorce in times past was because of the hardness of the heart of man, not because it was part of God's plan. Jesus emphasized ONE man for ONE woman. Polygamy is a perversion of God's marriage laws similar to fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

While polygamy was not wrong in ancient cultures, it was a departure from the divine institution God ordained. In the Bible there are 17 examples of polygamy from the time of Lamech to 931 AD.
13 of these men had enough power that no one could call into question their practice, they were unaccountable or no one dared approach them.

Lamech ... Genesis 4:19;
Abraham ... Genesis 16;
Esau ... Genesis 26:34; 28:9;
Jacob ... Genesis 29:30;
Ashur ... 1 Chronicles 4:5;
Gideon .... Judges 8:30;
Elkanah ... 1 Samuel 1:2;
David ... 1 Samuel 25:39-44; 2 Samuel 3:2-5; 5:13; 1 Chronicles 14:3;
Solomon ... 1 Kings 11:1-8;
Rehoboam ... 2 Chronicles 11:18-23;
Abijah .... 2 Chronicles 13:21;
Jehoram ... 2 Chronicles 21:14;
Joash ... 2 Chronicles 24:3;
Ahab ... 2 Kings 10;
Jehoiachin ... 2 Kings 24:15;
Belshazzar ... Daniel 5:2; 1 Chronicles 2:8;
Hosea ... Hosea 3:1,2.


While polygamy continued to be practiced all down through the period of Jewish history to the Captivity, there is NO instance of it on record thereafter (Gen.29:15-30, Jacob and his wives). There is NO examples of polygamy in the New Testament, and even if that had been a practice in the New Testament times, it does not mean God condoned it.

Was Abraham, David Solomon condemned or approved for practicing polygamy? Well they certainly did not get blessed for it! The fact that every polygamist in the Bible like David and Solomon (1 Chron. 14:3) were punished. This should be evidence that this is not God’s will.


Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

God hates divorce as well as polygamy, since it destroys the family (Mal. 2:16). Whatever the patriarchs or any Christian did wrong does not change the fact the Bible condemns it.

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[bodhitharta]

Are you saying there were no polygamous men in Jesus's day? Why didn't Jesus say that having many wives is wrong, why didn't he condemn Abraham, david, Solomon, Jacob or any other for practicing polygamy and if you consider polygamy wrong then you have to feel that there is no real 12 tribes of Israel as they didn't all come through the ORIGINAL wife.

Matthew 19:3-9
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?†And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.†They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?†He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.â€Â


Polygamy reduces the role of the woman in marriage to that of a mistress. It is true that several Old Testament characters engaged in Polygamy, but a careful study of these cases indicates the terrible consequences attached to going outside the will of God in marriage. In the passage from Matthew 19 above, Jesus stated that the reason God overlooked divorce in times past was because of the hardness of the heart of man, not because it was part of God's plan. Jesus emphasized ONE man for ONE woman. Polygamy is a perversion of God's marriage laws similar to fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

While polygamy was not wrong in ancient cultures, it was a departure from the divine institution God ordained. In the Bible there are 17 examples of polygamy from the time of Lamech to 931 AD.
13 of these men had enough power that no one could call into question their practice, they were unaccountable or no one dared approach them.

Lamech ... Genesis 4:19;
Abraham ... Genesis 16;
Esau ... Genesis 26:34; 28:9;
Jacob ... Genesis 29:30;
Ashur ... 1 Chronicles 4:5;
Gideon .... Judges 8:30;
Elkanah ... 1 Samuel 1:2;
David ... 1 Samuel 25:39-44; 2 Samuel 3:2-5; 5:13; 1 Chronicles 14:3;
Solomon ... 1 Kings 11:1-8;
Rehoboam ... 2 Chronicles 11:18-23;
Abijah .... 2 Chronicles 13:21;
Jehoram ... 2 Chronicles 21:14;
Joash ... 2 Chronicles 24:3;
Ahab ... 2 Kings 10;
Jehoiachin ... 2 Kings 24:15;
Belshazzar ... Daniel 5:2; 1 Chronicles 2:8;
Hosea ... Hosea 3:1,2.


While polygamy continued to be practiced all down through the period of Jewish history to the Captivity, there is NO instance of it on record thereafter (Gen.29:15-30, Jacob and his wives). There is NO examples of polygamy in the New Testament, and even if that had been a practice in the New Testament times, it does not mean God condoned it.

Was Abraham, David Solomon condemned or approved for practicing polygamy? Well they certainly did not get blessed for it! The fact that every polygamist in the Bible like David and Solomon (1 Chron. 14:3) were punished. This should be evidence that this is not God’s will.


Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

God hates divorce as well as polygamy, since it destroys the family (Mal. 2:16). Whatever the patriarchs or any Christian did wrong does not change the fact the Bible condemns it.

.

You must stop mixing Polygamy and Divorce. God hates divorce, polygamy was and still is acceptable(some places) and Jews were polygamous until the 12th century. God did not punish anyone for polygamy, David had many wives and only was punished for sleeping with another mans wife if polygamy was a sin God would not have allowed David to end up marrying the same woman whom he commited the sin of adultery with and not only did they later marry they were blessed and happy and she became the mother of Solomon.

 

[francisdesales]

You must stop mixing Polygamy and Divorce. God hates divorce, polygamy was and still is acceptable(some places) and Jews were polygamous until the 12th century.

You have not cited where "the Jews" were polygamous until the 12th century. It is "acceptable" only where Christianity has not taken part in inculturating the population and men continue to treat women as subhumans or property. It has been clearly explained that polygamy was not part of God's plan and that God allowed polygamy and divorce because of the hard-heartedness of men. The "one flesh" is described in the very first chapters of Genesis - and man has decided to ignore God's dictates.

God did not punish anyone for polygamy, David had many wives and only was punished for sleeping with another mans wife. if polygamy was a sin God would not have allowed David to end up marrying the same woman whom he commited the sin of adultery with and not only did they later marry they were blessed and happy and she became the mother of Solomon.

God ALLOWED it. Isn't that enough to say that God isn't punishing the Patriarchs for polygamy - at least in the way you might perceive, like lightening bolts...

You should use your rationale to re-analyze how some people CLAIM that Mohemmed was a prophet, but did not live the prophet's life. You might want to consider, with that rationale thought process, why God would go backwards, when Christianity had already given equality to women, with the advent of the "Koran". Perhaps this rationale will lead you to question the veracity of the Koran as God's Word and Mohemmed as "God's prophet"...

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

You have not cited where "the Jews" were polygamous until the 12th century. It is "acceptable" only where Christianity has not taken part in inculturating the population and men continue to treat women as subhumans or property. It has been clearly explained that polygamy was not part of God's plan and that God allowed polygamy and divorce because of the hard-heartedness of men. The "one flesh" is described in the very first chapters of Genesis - and man has decided to ignore God's dictates.

God ALLOWED it. Isn't that enough to say that God isn't punishing the Patriarchs for polygamy - at least in the way you might perceive, like lightening bolts...

You should use your rationale to re-analyze how some people CLAIM that Mohemmed was a prophet, but did not live the prophet's life. You might want to consider, with that rationale thought process, why God would go backwards, when Christianity had already given equality to women, with the advent of the "Koran". Perhaps this rationale will lead you to question the veracity of the Koran as God's Word and Mohemmed as "God's prophet"...

Regards

What do you mean "the Prophets life", his life was very similar to that of Moses. Today divorce is still allowed because of the hard heartedness of people. The elimination of polygamy in many places simply elevated the amount of adultery so much so that many ministers and politicians get caught doing it all the time. prescribing celibacy for priests has resulted in mass child molestation and its because it's unnatural.


I don't feel I need to say anything negative about Christianity to help you understand Islam it is no mystery that men everywhere have had a hard time treating women properly but it is untrue to believe that Christian men treat their wives better than Muslim men, in-fact it would be impossible to say such a thing. There is no shortage of battered women and childrens shelters in Christian dominated societies.

 

[francisdesales]

What do you mean "the Prophets life", his life was very similar to that of Moses.

In what ways?

Today divorce is still allowed because of the hard heartedness of people.

Don't confuse secular with religious law. They are not the same. Divorce is not allowed in my Church.

The elimination of polygamy in many places simply elevated the amount of adultery so much so that many ministers and politicians get caught doing it all the time.

It has nothing to do with the number of women. That is lunacy. Any time your eye wanders, you are to marry someone so you are not committing adultery??? That is tortured logic...

People commit adultery because they put their own personal agenda before God's. Having 5 women on hand to have sex with defeats the entire purpose of God's plan to share one oneself with only one female/male. Christ and His Bride, the Church is our example. Christ didn't have "two" brides, only one. Those who insist on having several are merely making excuses for their inability to control their lower desires.

prescribing celibacy for priests has resulted in mass child molestation and its because it's unnatural.

Nothing to do with the "child" molestation problem. Allowing practically gay priest in was the cause of the problems.

I don't feel I need to say anything negative about Christianity to help you understand Islam it is no mystery that men everywhere have had a hard time treating women properly but it is untrue to believe that Christian men treat their wives better than Muslim men, in-fact it would be impossible to say such a thing. There is no shortage of battered women and childrens shelters in Christian dominated societies.

The religious beliefs of an organization should be considered in light of the reason behind their being followed, not based upon the imperfection of her followers. Are the laws of the land wrong because peopel kill others and a nation cannot "control" their people? According to you, we should throw up our hands and say "oh well, some people murder, so we shouldn't bother to consider that murder should be illegal. Might as well make it legal, since some are doing it..."

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

So divorce is not allowed in your church for any reason?

 

[Tina]

You must stop mixing Polygamy and Divorce.

And you must stop mixing Islam with Christianity ....... :biglol

God hates divorce, polygamy was and still is acceptable(some places) and Jews were polygamous until the 12th century. God did not punish anyone for polygamy,

Like you said, it was the JEWS, and later the MUSLIMS and PAGANS, not the Christians that practiced polygamy. If polygamy is acceptable is some places today, they are only the MUSLIM countries. Name me one Christian or non-Muslim country that allows polygamy.

David had many wives and only was punished for sleeping with another mans wife if polygamy was a sin God would not have allowed David to end up marrying the same woman whom he commited the sin of adultery with and not only did they later marry they were blessed and happy and she became the mother of Solomon.

Quit expounding on something you know nothing about !

David deeply repented of his sin of POLYGAMY. The account is found in 2 Samuel 12 .
Here is what is recorded, and God is doing the speaking: “Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house; because you have despised Me [what David did despised God, not just His law] and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wifeâ€Â. Previously, David had conspired against and murdered Uriah, and had taken his wife Bathsheba for himself. God’s punishment was most severe. War (“the swordâ€Â) would pursue David for the rest of his life and would never “depart from his houseâ€Â and this even after he deeply repented. Verse 11 describes what would happen: “Thus says the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them unto your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.â€Â

This is an astonishing account, and it shows how severely God will deal with this sin  a sin He considers against Him. God plainly stated that David’s wives would be raped publicly that very day  under “this sun.†The use of this term meant God would deal swiftly with what David did. But there was another immediate event  and it was the result of God’s sentence: “David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORDâ€Â). Psalm 51 details much more of how David was broken up, deeply convicted and extremely sorrowful for what he had done. The result of David’s repentance was Nathan declaring, “The LORD has put away your sin; you shall not die.â€Â

Yes, David had practiced polygamy, but he turned from it in real, deep, sincere repentance  it could be said, as deep as was the punishment for disobedience. David continued in marriage to Bathsheba, with his only legitimate wife, Michal, almost certainly now dead (2 Samuel 6:23). Upon returning to Jerusalem shortly after this time, David ended the relationship with his harem of ten concubines. “And David came to his house at Jerusalem; and the king took the ten women his concubines, whom he had left to keep the house, and put them in ward, and fed them, but went not in unto them. So they were shut up unto the day of their death, living in widowhood†(2 Samuel 20:3). David did feel an obligation to provide for these women, but he no longer cohabited with them.

David’s wives, through public rape, and his concubines, because of polygamist marriage, had all been defiled. They were required to live in “widowhood.†Also understand that, as a virile young man who had been a great warrior, and who had pursued many women in his early years, David was able to change, and to come to spiritual maturity. The scriptures record that he “went fully after the LORD†(1 Kings 11:6). Repentance involves change  ACTION  and David followed through on his change of heart by ending all practice of polygamy in his life.

David’s son Solomon became the very reverse of his father’s pattern. He began as a righteous king who had tremendous faith in God, and was given wisdom like none other before or since. But Solomon also changed  and not for the good. Scripture records that “when Solomon was old†he accumulated 1,000 women in his life  700 wives and 300 concubines. This represents an incredible departure into the pursuit of pleasure and selfish accumulation  and it was PLAIN SIN. Solomon, like Saul, copied the kings of the surrounding natons. In this, the Bible records, “Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD†(1 Kings 11:6).

There was polygamy in ancient Israel. But it was SIN! God CONDEMNED it -- He never condoned
or sanctioned it. They reaped what they sowed.

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[francisdesales]

So divorce is not allowed in your church for any reason?

When a valid sacramental marriage took place (between two Christians), divorce and remarriage is not allowed. The purpose of "annulment" is to judge whether a valid sacramental marriage in God's eyes ever took place. In some cases, the Church allows two to go their separate ways, (like physical spousal abuse) but they still cannot remarry as long as one is alive - unless they never were sacramentally married in the first place...

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

Tina,

Wow! You are so wrong! David repented of Adultery not polygamy and Solomon sinned for allowing his wives to build alters to their gods as he had married so many wives that some of them practiced strange things.

To deny Polygamy is to deny the 12 tribes of Israel as they are the result of 3 different wives of Jacob but I bet you didn't know that, did you?

So just say that you deny the 12 tribes of Israel as legitimate and I'll believe you.

This would mean you also consider the tribe in which Jesus came from as illigitimate, remember Leah was the original wife of Jacob/Israel

 

[Tina]

Wow! You are so wrong! David repented of Adultery not polygamy …

…… Open your eyes Bodhi , did you even bother to read the scriptures that I spread out for you ? …. Are you merely arguing for the sake of arguing ?

2 Samuel 12:7-13
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’†So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.â€Â

… and Solomon sinned for allowing his wives to build alters to their gods as he had married so many wives that some of them practiced strange things.

For the umpteenth time, READ SCRIPTURES IN THEIR ENTIRE CONTEXT ! Don’t just conveniently pick and choose verses to deceive us and suit your arguments. And please when we reply to you, take your time to read them through thoroughly before shooting yourself in your foot with lame rhetorics !

1 Kings 11:1-6
But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites  from the nations of whom the LORD had said to the children of Israel, “You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods.†Solomon clung to these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the LORD his God, as was the heart of his father David. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David.

To deny Polygamy is to deny the 12 tribes of Israel as they are the result of 3 different wives of Jacob but I bet you didn't know that, did you?

SO WHAT ?
My ancestors (including Jacob et al.) had many wives, does that mean I must believe in polygamy over what the Word of God clearly says in the New Testament ?

This would mean you also consider the tribe in which Jesus came from as illigitimate, remember Leah was the original wife of Jacob/Israel

Don’t deliberately keep looking for excuses to support polygamy !
Even if Jesus had not been birthed of a virgin, I will still accept it if that’s what the Bible says !

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[bodhitharta]

Don’t deliberately keep looking for excuses to support polygamy !
Even if Jesus had not been birthed of a virgin, I will still accept it if that’s what the Bible says !

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The verses about Solomon were about intermarrying with non-believers. You still have not shown any law that PROHIBITS MONOGAMY and yet you dismiss that God is ONE LORD, saying instead that He is 3 Persons. One Lord consists of One Person and Gode is called The LORD GOD and not the Lords God.

It seems to me that Polygamay is more important to you than Polytheism which you practice. If you believe in Monogamy so much then why don't you support 100% Pure Monotheism like Islam?

 

[Tina]

The verses about Solomon were about intermarrying with non-believers.

This is what I mean by "spiritual blindness". Look at the last line of the scriptures in 1 Kings 11:1-6.

"Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David"

It says ... "as did his father David". David had sinned against God deliberately on occasion when tempted, but his heart remained devoted to Yahweh. His sin was not as serious as Solomon, yet God said in 1 Kings 11:6 that .."Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David... In other words, God pointed out the sin of POLYGAMY here, NOT the sin of intermarrying or the sin of turning to other gods. Remember what Moses has said to King Solomon is Deuteronomy 17:17 - "Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself. "

You still have not shown any law that PROHIBITS MONOGAMY and yet you dismiss that God is ONE LORD, saying instead that He is 3 Persons. One Lord consists of One Person and Gode is called The LORD GOD and not the Lords God. It seems to me that Polygamay is more important to you than Polytheism which you practice. If you believe in Monogamy so much then why don't you support 100% Pure Monotheism like Islam?

Wild allegations and repeated denials of what have already been presented to you as evidence of Christian Monotheism, prohibition of polygamy and belief in monogamy is not going to give credence to your sincerity in being in this forum.

Trinity is about Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is merely a concept, amply supported by the Bible which I believe I've already discussed. Christians believe in ONE God, whose Son is Jesus Christ the Lord .....

Polygamy is clearly forbidden in the New Testament and I believe I've already proven that with ample scriptures, if only you will bother to read and understand them. Even Jesus (who probably never had a girlfriend or wife) said this in Matthew 19 - "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the TWO shall become ONE flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh.

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[francisdesales]

How do you know for sure that there were polygamous people listening to him ?

I am STILL waiting for "him" to back up that claim he non-chalantly makes without any backing... I have asked him 4 or 5 times now.

I guess people can just make up stuff and not be held accountable to support their inventions...

Regards

 

[Adullam]

This thread has deteriorated into a chase down a rabbit trail.

I ask...what do Islam and Christianity have in common? Is there no common ground?

What of righteousness? What of morality and lawfulness? What of the desire to do what is right?

 

[Tina]

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Understanding Christianity and Islam


The Call of Muhammad

The first and most authorative biography of Muhammad was written by Ibn Ishaq nearly 150 years after Muhammad’s death. While the Quran was the recitations of Muhammad and recorded by various scribes, nobody knows for sure who wrote it.

At the age of forty, Muhammad received his first visitation from the angel Gabriel. According to Ibn Ishaq, the giving and receiving of the revelation was quite violent in nature. Gabriel came to Muhammad and ordered him to read his message. Being illiterate, Muhammad asked Gabriel, “What shall I read?†It is then Gabriel pressed Muhammad so hard that Muhammad thought he was going to die. This was repeated three times until Muhammad read the following message from Gabriel: “Read in the name of thy Lord who created, who created man of blood coagulated. Read! Thy Lord is the most beneficent, who taught by the pen, taught that which they knew not unto men.†After this the angel Gabriel departed.

Muhammad was terrified by this incident. Bukhari records that Muhammad returned home trembling and sought to hide under a blanket. His first thought was that he had come under demonic influence. In fact, he was so troubled that he became suicidal. Ishaq records that since Muhammad did not want anyone in his tribe to discover that he was possessed, he resolved to go to the top of a mountain and commit suicide. However, his wife and her cousin Waraqa, an Ebionite Christian, encouraged him that he was not possessed but rather a prophet of God. Through their encouragement, he came to believe that he had received a divine message from Allah.

Prior to his encounter with Gabriel and throughout his life, Muhammad struggled with demonic possession. Ishaq records an incident during Muhammad’s childhood when his foster parents, al-Harith and Halima, were raising him. One day while behind the tents, two men clothed in white threw Muhammad to the ground, opened up his belly, and searched through it. His foster father felt the boy might have suffered a stroke. Halima, his foster mother who had nursed Muhammad, believed a demon had possessed him.

Another account of Muhammad’s struggle with demon possession occurred a few years after his prophetic calling when Muhammad believed he received a revelation allowing Muslims to worship the three gods of the Quraysh. However, he later admitted that Satan possessed him when he uttered those verses. Allah eventually forgave Muhammad but gave him a stern warning recorded in Surah 17:73-75. Also another time after his prophetic calling Muhammad fell under the spell of a Jewish magician named Labid for one year.


The Call of Jesus

Unlike the Quran, the New Testament of the Bible was written as and when divine revelations were received by the apostles. Except for the book of Hebrews, the authors of the other books of the Bible are clearly understood.

In contrast to Muhammad, biblical prophets and apostles clearly understood their visions were from God rather than Satan or demons. Although some were frightened by their vision of God or the angels before them, they were not violently handled. Instead they were given an assuring introductions such as “Do not be afraid†(Lk. 1:13, 28-30, 2:10, Isa. 6:6-7, Rev. 1:17). Jesus’ birth was miraculous, and He understood His mission from His childhood (Lk. 2:41-52). Throughout His life, Jesus clearly distinguished between God’s message and Satan’s. During His temptation in the desert, He did not struggle with possession but instead defeated Satan’s attacks using the word of God. Throughout His ministry, Jesus demonstrated authority over the demonic realm, and the demons were terrified of Him (Mt. 8:16, Lk. 8:26-39). Through His death and resurrection, Jesus defeated Satan and the demonic hosts. Paul states that Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in Him†(Col. 2:15).



The contrast is readily apparent. One man struggled from demonic presence in his life; the other conquered the devil.

Much of the Quran jumps from one place to another, lacking in narrative unity. While the Quran is based on a one man’s account with NO eye witnesses, the Bible is based on hundreds of thousands of eye witnesses to what happened to Jesus at the Cross and the miraculous events that happened. The accounts are consistent in all the gospels.

While Muhammad is in his grave, the tomb of Jesus is empty.

As to God, the cold, distant and uninvolved Allah pales in comparison to the LIVING God of the Bible.


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[bodhitharta]

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Understanding Christianity and Islam


The Call of Muhammad

The first and most authorative biography of Muhammad was written by Ibn Ishaq nearly 150 years after Muhammad’s death. While the Quran was the recitations of Muhammad and recorded by various scribes, nobody knows for sure who wrote it.

At the age of forty, Muhammad received his first visitation from the angel Gabriel. According to Ibn Ishaq, the giving and receiving of the revelation was quite violent in nature. Gabriel came to Muhammad and ordered him to read his message. Being illiterate, Muhammad asked Gabriel, “What shall I read?†It is then Gabriel pressed Muhammad so hard that Muhammad thought he was going to die. This was repeated three times until Muhammad read the following message from Gabriel: “Read in the name of thy Lord who created, who created man of blood coagulated. Read! Thy Lord is the most beneficent, who taught by the pen, taught that which they knew not unto men.†After this the angel Gabriel departed.

Muhammad was terrified by this incident. Bukhari records that Muhammad returned home trembling and sought to hide under a blanket. His first thought was that he had come under demonic influence. In fact, he was so troubled that he became suicidal. Ishaq records that since Muhammad did not want anyone in his tribe to discover that he was possessed, he resolved to go to the top of a mountain and commit suicide. However, his wife and her cousin Waraqa, an Ebionite Christian, encouraged him that he was not possessed but rather a prophet of God. Through their encouragement, he came to believe that he had received a divine message from Allah.

Prior to his encounter with Gabriel and throughout his life, Muhammad struggled with demonic possession. Ishaq records an incident during Muhammad’s childhood when his foster parents, al-Harith and Halima, were raising him. One day while behind the tents, two men clothed in white threw Muhammad to the ground, opened up his belly, and searched through it. His foster father felt the boy might have suffered a stroke. Halima, his foster mother who had nursed Muhammad, believed a demon had possessed him.

Another account of Muhammad’s struggle with demon possession occurred a few years after his prophetic calling when Muhammad believed he received a revelation allowing Muslims to worship the three gods of the Quraysh. However, he later admitted that Satan possessed him when he uttered those verses. Allah eventually forgave Muhammad but gave him a stern warning recorded in Surah 17:73-75. Also another time after his prophetic calling Muhammad fell under the spell of a Jewish magician named Labid for one year.


The Call of Jesus

Unlike the Quran, the New Testament of the Bible was written as and when divine revelations were received by the apostles. Except for the book of Hebrews, the authors of the other books of the Bible are clearly understood.

In contrast to Muhammad, biblical prophets and apostles clearly understood their visions were from God rather than Satan or demons. Although some were frightened by their vision of God or the angels before them, they were not violently handled. Instead they were given an assuring introductions such as “Do not be afraid†(Lk. 1:13, 28-30, 2:10, Isa. 6:6-7, Rev. 1:17). Jesus’ birth was miraculous, and He understood His mission from His childhood (Lk. 2:41-52). Throughout His life, Jesus clearly distinguished between God’s message and Satan’s. During His temptation in the desert, He did not struggle with possession but instead defeated Satan’s attacks using the word of God. Throughout His ministry, Jesus demonstrated authority over the demonic realm, and the demons were terrified of Him (Mt. 8:16, Lk. 8:26-39). Through His death and resurrection, Jesus defeated Satan and the demonic hosts. Paul states that Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in Him†(Col. 2:15).



The contrast is readily apparent. One man struggled from demonic presence in his life; the other conquered the devil.

Much of the Quran jumps from one place to another, lacking in narrative unity. While the Quran is based on a one man’s account with NO eye witnesses, the Bible is based on hundreds of thousands of eye witnesses to what happened to Jesus at the Cross and the miraculous events that happened. The accounts are consistent in all the gospels.

While Muhammad is in his grave, the tomb of Jesus is empty.

As to God, the cold, distant and uninvolved Allah pales in comparison to the LIVING God of the Bible.


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The Quran is not based on any man's account it is a revelation delivered by the Angel Gabriel. Who witnessed the Angel Gabriel 's visit to Mary? Tell me if you know. Who witnessed the visit of Jesus to Paul? Those with him did not see nor hear Jesus. Paul was blinded by the vision the last time someone was blinded in the bible was those in Sodom and gomorah, so why was Paul blinded?

You say the tomb of Jesus is empty and I agree but in Islam the belief is he never died.

 

[Tina]

The Quran is not based on any man's account it is a revelation delivered by the Angel Gabriel.

Which is a ONE-MAN's account of Muhammad without any eye witnesses.

Who witnessed the Angel Gabriel 's visit to Mary?

God did not leave Mary with no eye witnesses. He sent Angel Gabriel to witness to Joseph and confirm what was said to Mary.


Matthew 1:18-25
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.†So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.†Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Tell me if you know. Who witnessed the visit of Jesus to Paul? Those with him did not see nor hear Jesus. Paul was blinded by the vision the last time someone was blinded in the bible was those in Sodom and gomorah, so why was Paul blinded?

Again you are demonstrating a distorted understanding of the Bible.
Paul's travelling companions did hear the voice of Jesus and saw His light, and fell to the ground.


Acts 9:3-19
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?†And he said, “Who are You, Lord?†Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.†So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?†Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.†And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.†And he said, “Here I am, Lord.†So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.†Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.†But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.†And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.†Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.


Acts 22:6-9
“Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.


Acts 26:12-14
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

You say the tomb of Jesus is empty and I agree but in Islam the belief is he never died.

Which is biblically incorrect !

.

 

[francisdesales]

The Quran is not based on any man's account it is a revelation delivered by the Angel Gabriel.

The reason this is unbelievable is that it is based upon one man's account whose life was anything but trustworthy as the life of a prophet. If this man had supposedly been visited by God in such a direct manner, we would expect to find a different lifestyle, as seen in the Scriptures of those who have received legitimate visitations. We even see such people today - their lives drastically change after such visitations.

Authoritative teachings are not just given, they are received. The HEARERS must also believe that the speaker has been given authority by God. Evidence of this authority is based upon their life. One knows that a person is a trustworthy witness to God or an event based on the person and his personality and walk.

Thus, no one trusts someone known to be a liar, and people do not believe in their heart that someone is a prophet who does not live the life of a prophet. A person is a man of God who lived the life of Mohemmed? Thus, his word doesn't hold much authority with those outside of Islam or not subject to get their heads cut off if they choose not to follow the ways of Islam. (submission... to the caliph...)

On the other hand, the life of Christ and the Apostles and Paul offer a vivid testimony to others that they were indeed guided by and sent by God. There witness, thus, is worthy of belief, since they actually walked the walk, they didn't talk the talk, like Mohemmed, and then cut someone's head off because he didn't pay his taxes or disagreed on the idea of polygamy.

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

The Quran is not based on any man's account it is a revelation delivered by the Angel Gabriel.

Which is a ONE-MAN's account of Muhammad without any eye witnesses.

Who witnessed the Angel Gabriel 's visit to Mary?

God did not leave Mary with no eye witnesses. He sent Angel Gabriel to witness to Joseph and confirm what was said to Mary.


Matthew 1:18-25
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.†So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,†which is translated, “God with us.†Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Tell me if you know. Who witnessed the visit of Jesus to Paul? Those with him did not see nor hear Jesus. Paul was blinded by the vision the last time someone was blinded in the bible was those in Sodom and gomorah, so why was Paul blinded?

Again you are demonstrating a distorted understanding of the Bible.
Paul's travelling companions did hear the voice of Jesus and saw His light, and fell to the ground.


Acts 9:3-19
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?†And he said, “Who are You, Lord?†Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.†So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?†Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.†And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.†And he said, “Here I am, Lord.†So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.†Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.†But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.†And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.†Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.


Acts 22:6-9
“Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.


Acts 26:12-14
“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

You say the tomb of Jesus is empty and I agree but in Islam the belief is he never died.

Which is biblically incorrect !

.

Which accout of Paul is correct? In one accout those with Paul did not hear the voice but just saw the light and in another version it says they heard a voice and saw no one and another version says they all fell to the ground while yet another says only Paul fell to the ground.

Read the scriptures you just quoted here and pay attention to the events and then get back to me

 

[LostSoul]

Everyone: Please get back on topic. The subject is Understanding Christianity and Islam...clearly we are trying to hunt for a likeness if there are any between the two. Let us please not go bashing one another
and try to treat each other as we would want to be treated.

Bodhitharta: I will ask you again to visit the TOS. Discrediting the Bible or trying to do so here is not something I believe that is acceptable here.