Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[LeviR]

Well I do not agree that on…. this day I have begotten you means the resurrection.

Son of Abraham and David? How does that work….a threesome?

And if you can find the word miraculous in connection to this event that would be good. And Miriam conceived miraculously! No need for begotten or Son. Miracle baby?

For God so loved the world, that He Miraculously caused Miraim to conceive. I think that God did that to Elizabeth.

Yeah. God, Abraham, and David had a good time on Mary.

 

[Grailhunter]

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.”

This is the appearing of our great God when the son of man is brought before Him by the clouds of heaven (the saints) whereby dominion over the kings of the earth will be granted him.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they(the saints) brought Him near before Him.
14Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.”

So this prophecy is about the time when Christ will establish His kingdom?

 

[LeviR]

So this prophecy is about the time when Christ will establish His kingdom?

Yeah, on Mars.

 

[LeviR]

I think it is above our pay grade to come up with a definition of God that He has to adjust to.

Where did His Son come from? LOL

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Ya know what begotten means….right?

“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created. The Son of Yahweh, not Yahweh.

Now just for the fun of it would you like to explain how a pre-existing God became sperm and fertilized Miriam’s egg so she would conceive? I just find humor with people that try to say it happened different than what the scriptures say it happened. Because the explanations can really get wild. Go for it!

Just take the word begotten and add eternal to it, that way he was never born. I think.

 

[LeviR]

So this prophecy is about the time when Christ will establish His kingdom?

So I says to the guy, I says, you have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. That’s three God’s, no?
He says, no
I says, yeah I think it is.
He says, no it isn’t.
I says, yeah, but it is.
He says no, because the three that are each God are only one God.
I says, oh, you think?
He says, yeah.

So I just figure the guy don’t know how to count.

 

[Grailhunter]

So I says to the guy, I says, you have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. That’s three God’s, no?
He says, no
I says, yeah I think it is.
He says, no it isn’t.
I says, yeah, but it is.
He says no, because the three that are each God are only one God.
I says, oh, you think?
He says, yeah.

So I just figure the guy don’t know how to count.

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

Posts 78-83

 

[LeviR]

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

Posts 78-83

Not only do they add Trinity but a lot of other verbiage too.
And what’s with the use of singular person pronouns?
How is He and I and me = 3

I had a teacher years ago who was a Doctor of Philosophy and Theology. He explained to me that the Trinity was not a contradiction. He said it's not because it’s one substance and three persons . If it were one substance and three substances then it would be a contradiction. I accepted that.

So that’s not the contradiction. But what is, is to label each person as God individually. And that’s what they do.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not only do they add Trinity but a lot of other verbiage too.
And what’s with the use of singular person pronouns?
How is He and I and me = 3

I had a teacher years ago who was a Doctor of Philosophy and Theology. He explained to me that the Trinity was not a contradiction. He said it's not because it’s one substance and three persons . If it were one substance and three substances then it would be a contradiction. I accepted that.

So that’s not the contradiction. But what is, is to label each person as God individually. And that’s what they do.

The one God formula for the Trinity was never intended to be the truth.
There were irresoluble disagreements about God the Father and God the Son and the differences between them.
Empire Constantine insisted one faith, one belief.
The solution?….if they are one God….one divine being….one person there could be no differences….no contradictions. Arguments settled.
Of course that did not change what people believed, in or out of the councils.
So they decided to enforce it upon pain of death or excommunication. Indicating that one could not be saved if they did not believe in the one God formula for the Trinity.
So the Roman Catholic Church began the effort of belief control, believing they had the power to rule over salvation.

 

[Runningman]

I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. Daniel 7:13

Daniel is full of Prophesies and symbologies….animal works. A little fuzzy, why are UFO pictures always fuzzy? Son of Man is a very popular phrase in the Old Testament and it usually points to Ezekiel. Yahweh called Ezekiel the Son of Man. Christ called Himself the Son of Man. There is no explanation for it. And do not get hung up on the capitalization, Hebrew is all caps.

If you are trying to suggest that this is a prophecy of the Messiah, I can’t say it is not and I cannot say it is. But if you look at the chapter it is more like a Revelation time frame….lots of violence. And it is exactly what the Jews were hoping for….a violent Messiah. I cannot say anything definite because it is a fuzzy prophecy….Except to ask Daniel to send us a clear picture, what good is a fuzzy picture? What good is a prophecy that is not clear?

Job 25:6, Job 35:8, Psalm 35:8, Isaiah 51:12, Isaiah 56:2, Jeremiah 49:18, Jeremiah 49:33, Ezekiel 2:1, 2:6, 2:8, 3:1, 3:3, 3:4, 3:10, 3:17, 3:25, 4:1, 4:16, 5:1, 6:2, 7:2, 8:5, 8:6, 8:8, 8:12. 8:15, 8:17, 11:2, 11:4, 11:15, 12:2, 12:3, 12:9, 12:18, 12:22, 12:27, 13:2, 13:17, 14:3, 14:13, 15:2, 16:2, 17:2, 20:3, 20:4, 20:27, 20:46, 21:2, 21:6, 21:9, 21:12, 21:14, 21:19, 21:28, 22:2, 22:18, 22:24, 23:2, 23:36, 24:2, 24:16, 24:25, 26:2, 27:2, 28:2, 28:1, 29:2, 29:18, 30:2, 31:2, 32:2, 32:18, 33:2, 33:7, 33:10, 33:12, 33:24, 33:30, 34:2, 36:1, 36:17, 37:3, 37:9, 37:11, 37:16, 38:2, 38:14, 39:1, 39:17, 40:4, 40:7, 43:10, 43:18, 47:6, Daniel 7:13, 8:17

Yes, "son of man" is used exclusively to refer to humans in the Bible. It means exactly what it suggests which is someone is a son of a man. In other words, that's a human. (Job 25:6, Psalm 80:17, Psalm 144:3, Ezekiel 2:1) and Jesus is called the Son of man many times (Matthew 12:40, 16:27,28) and then God is not a son of man (Numbers 23:19)

But taking into account the many of things Jesus said, the "the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven" is a reference to no one other than himself. And who is Jesus? He is the Messiah.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, "son of man" is used exclusively to refer to humans in the Bible. It means exactly what it suggests which is someone is a son of a man. In other words, that's a human. (Job 25:6, Psalm 80:17, Psalm 144:3, Ezekiel 2:1) and Jesus is called the Son of man many times (Matthew 12:40, 16:27,28) and then God is not a son of man (Numbers 23:19)

But taking into account the many of things Jesus said, the "the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven" is a reference to no one other than himself. And who is Jesus? He is the Messiah.

Yeshua the Messiah. Yeshua the chrīstós….the anointed.
Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh. Begotten of Him through Miriam.
He is the Son of God….a full fledged God….our Savior….the Anointed.
And He sits on the right hand of the Father.

The word Messiah only appears twice in the Old Testament scriptures, both times in Daniel. What does Messiah mean in the Old Testament scriptures? ….The promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible in connection with the great and terrible day of the Lord which would be the messianic age.

Well since this did not happen during Yeshua ministry, Christians connect the great and terrible day of the Lord with Revelations and Armageddon. A very violent period.

The Jews agree with the whole violent thing. But back in the Old Testament the Jews Connected all that with the messianic age….which was the arrival of the Messiah. And it was their belief that Elijah would come down in a fiery chariot and introduce the Messiah to the Jews. From there the Messiah would take out their oppressors and establish His eternal kingdom. The Jews did not believe that the Messiah would die so there is no second coming of the Messiah in Judaism.
The Jews were essential looking for a human warlord king. This is one of the reasons that they rejected Yeshua as the Messiah. They were not looking for the Son of God, they were not looking for a peace loving Messiah, They were not conserned about being saved from Hell because they did and still do not beleive in Hell. And they were not looking to go to Heaven because Heaven was the abode of God and humans did not normally go there. There were other reasons why the Jews rejected Yeshua. A God impregnating a woman and she delivering a God was a Pagan motif and Yahweh impregnating a woman that was betrothed was considered adultery.
A betrothed woman is engaged to be married and is considered married, or a wife.
And of course Yeshua was teaching things that were contray to their beliefs. And then you have the corrupt nature of the Jewish leadership.

 

[LeviR]

The one God formula for the Trinity was never intended to be the truth.
There were irresoluble disagreements about God the Father and God the Son and the differences between them.
Empire Constantine insisted one faith, one belief.
The solution?….if they are one God….one divine being….one person there could be no differences….no contradictions. Arguments settled.
Of course that did not change what people believed, in or out of the councils.
So they decided to enforce it upon pain of death or excommunication. Indicating that one could not be saved if they did not believe in the one God formula for the Trinity.
So the Roman Catholic Church began the effort of belief control, believing they had the power to rule over salvation.

They knew they were espousing three Gods, that’s why they added “not three gods but one God” to the creed.
It seems that’s all they had to do to make three one. Just say it’s one and not three, that’s it.
Hook, line and sinker.

 

[Free]

I think it is above our pay grade to come up with a definition of God that He has to adjust to.

Where did His Son come from? LOL

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Ya know what begotten means….right?

“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Do you think that absolute existence is an attribute of God, one that necessarily defines who he is, that he is the first and the last? If so, how can the Son be said to be a God if, as you claim, he was created?

Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created. The Son of Yahweh, not Yahweh.

Jesus, yes, but that doesn't address whether or not he preexisted as the Son.

Now just for the fun of it would you like to explain how a pre-existing God became sperm and fertilized Miriam’s egg so she would conceive? I just find humor with people that try to say it happened different than what the scriptures say it happened. Because the explanations can really get wild. Go for it!

You just said, "I think it is above our pay grade to come up with a definition of God that He has to adjust to." Perhaps you would care to explain how Jesus fed 5,000+ with five loaves and two fish, or the 4,000+ he fed with seven loaves and two fish. Creative miracles seem to me to be within the capabilities of God.

Besides, it would be very poor reasoning to conclude that just because something is beyond our comprehension or because the Bible didn't provide an exact explanation that it is therefore false.

I am just telling it like it is according to the scriptures....I could careless about labels.

No, you do care about labels, which is why you use "Trinity' and "Trinitarianism" a fair bit. And, this point has nothing to do with "telling it like it is according to the scriptures." This particular point was about you "Just giving different views of the Trinity," but in the process provided a definition that is actually Modalism, and falsely stated that it is the "Pentecostal definition of the Trinity," when in fact it is the unitarian Modalist view found specifically in United Pentecostals/"Jesus Only."

Three divine persons, one Godhead that could sit on three thrones.

How is that an option? You're just repeating tritheism when the Bible is monotheistic from beginning to end.

 

[Grailhunter]

If so, how can the Son be said to be a God

I did not claim He was created. If you start putting words in my mouth you and I will stop talking….again. Christ was conceived and born the Son of God. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son…..

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus, yes, but that doesn't address whether or not he preexisted as the Son.

We have covered this before....
The Son of God in the Old Testament? Does that even make sense?

The Bible does not get into the details of a pre-existent Christ. So I am free to speculate as a possibility. I believe the Gods relate to time different than you and me. We are always in the present. The Gods have an awareness of past, present, and future. When Christ was born He had that awareness.

Now Christ is a full fledged God….but is He God Almighty or the Creator God? NO. That is a Gnostic belief.

 

[Grailhunter]

You just said, "I think it is above our pay grade to come up with a definition of God that He has to adjust to." Perhaps you would care to explain how Jesus fed 5,000+ with five loaves and two fish, or the 4,000+ he fed with seven loaves and two fish. Creative miracles seem to me to be within the capabilities of God.

I said definition of God. Not what they did. Christ is a God so feeding the world would be a single thought.

 

[Grailhunter]

Besides, it would be very poor reasoning to conclude that just because something is beyond our comprehension or because the Bible didn't provide an exact explanation that it is therefore falseI did not say this either. There is a lot that we cannot comprehend that is real. Two strikes.

I did not say this either. There is a lot that we cannot comprehend that is real. Two strikes.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, you do care about labels, which is why you use "Trinity' and "Trinitarianism" a fair bit. And, this point has nothing to do with "telling it like it is according to the scriptures." This particular point was about you "Just giving different views of the Trinity," but in the process provided a definition that is actually Modalism, and falsely stated that it is the "Pentecostal definition of the Trinity," when in fact it is the unitarian Modalist view found specifically in United Pentecostals/"Jesus Only."

Like I said before I was just giving examples of different beliefs about the Trinity. I did not say any of them were true.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you think that absolute existence is an attribute of God, one that necessarily defines who he is, that he is the first and the last? If so, how can the Son be said to be a God if, as you claim, he was created?


Jesus, yes, but that doesn't address whether or not he preexisted as the Son.


You just said, "I think it is above our pay grade to come up with a definition of God that He has to adjust to." Perhaps you would care to explain how Jesus fed 5,000+ with five loaves and two fish, or the 4,000+ he fed with seven loaves and two fish. Creative miracles seem to me to be within the capabilities of God.

Besides, it would be very poor reasoning to conclude that just because something is beyond our comprehension or because the Bible didn't provide an exact explanation that it is therefore false.


No, you do care about labels, which is why you use "Trinity' and "Trinitarianism" a fair bit. And, this point has nothing to do with "telling it like it is according to the scriptures." This particular point was about you "Just giving different views of the Trinity," but in the process provided a definition that is actually Modalism, and falsely stated that it is the "Pentecostal definition of the Trinity," when in fact it is the unitarian Modalist view found specifically in United Pentecostals/"Jesus Only."


How is that an option? You're just repeating tritheism when the Bible is monotheistic from beginning to end.

The Old Testament is monolithic, the New Testament is not. Three named Gods.

 

[LeviR]

The idea that the Bible does not explain exactly what we need to know is false.
The reason Trinitarians have added ideas using their own words and adding words to other words is because they don’t understand what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[Butch5]

The doctrine is self refuting. In John 17 Jesus prayed to the Father saying, ' this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God. The Bible also says God cannot lie and is all knowing. This presents a problem for the Trinity doctrine. Jesus said that someone other than Himself is the true God. The Christian has two choices here, either Jesus isn't the true as he said. In which case He is not God. Or Jesus was
wrong or lied, which Scripture says God cannot do. So, in that case Jesus wouldn't be God either. The Christian has to either deny what Jesus said, in which case he doesn't believe his God. Or He accepts what Jesus said and He is not God.