Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Butch5]

Free Im still pretty busy. It'll be a week or so before I'll have time. If you're really interested in this i can give you a link to a series on this subject that is currently ongoing and is at about 20 hours of video. It goes really deep into this. Obviously much deeper than I could ever go on a forum. If you're interested let me know

 

[LeviR]

I said definition of God. Not what they did. Christ is a God so feeding the world would be a single thought.

Do your beliefs associate with a particular denomination?

 

[Grailhunter]

Do your beliefs associate with a particular denomination?

That is not an easy question to answer because what a denomination dictates and what people profess to believe in and what they actually believe, can be in the same church.

For example….
The Nicene Creed comes in a few versions but here is the basics

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

The one God formula for the Trinity is very popular but this creed does not suggest the 3 persons in one God or one God in three person or any other variant. It also refers to Yahweh as God Almighty and the Creator God. It even points out that Yeshua sits at the right hand of God and refers to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. This is a distinction that the Apostles made frequently, for an example here is an example of the examples below…..Roman 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ….
The Apostles where not saying that Yeshua was not a God but that there was a difference between Yahweh and Yeshua.

Acts 20:21, Romans 5:1, 5:11, 15:6, 1st Corinthians 15:57, 2nd Corinthians 1:3, 2nd Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 1:3 , Galatians 6:14, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:17, Ephesians 3:14, Ephesians 5:20, Colossians 1:3, 1st Thessalonians 1:3, 1st Thessalonians 3:11, 1st Thessalonians 3:13, 1st Thessalonians 5:23, 2nd Thessalonians 1:8, 2nd Thessalonians 1:12, 2nd Thessalonians 2:16, Hebrews 13:20, 1st Peter 1:3, Jude 1:21

So most denominations do not adhere to the Nicene Creed. Further some do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a God, rather a spirit that emanates from God the Father or God the Son or both. Part of the confusion was caused by not giving the Holy Spirit a name and or calling this Deity a Spirit or a Ghost.
The Holy Spirit is a God.

To say that there is only one God, to a certain degree is correct because Yahweh is unique in that He is Almighty the Supreme Being and senior to all. As Christ said, the Father is greater than I.

Most theologians do not endorse any one denomination because the have too many false beliefs like the one God formula or Original Sin or have a list of man-made sins that they use to edify themselves and condemn others and drive them away from Christianity.

I worship at several churches….denominations. I do not go there because of the correctness of their beliefs….I go to worship the Godhead and fellowship with Christians and support the churches. Of them my favorite is the Holy Ghost churches, Pentecostal, and some do believe in the individually of the Gods.

 

[LeviR]

That is not an easy question to answer because what a denomination dictates and what people profess to believe in and what they actually believe, can be in the same church.

For example….
The Nicene Creed comes in a few versions but here is the basics

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

The one God formula for the Trinity is very popular but this creed does not suggest the 3 persons in one God or one God in three person or any other variant. It also refers to Yahweh as God Almighty and the Creator God. It even points out that Yeshua sits at the right hand of God and refers to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. This is a distinction that the Apostles made frequently, for an example here is an example of the examples below…..Roman 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ….
The Apostles where not saying that Yeshua was not a God but that there was a difference between Yahweh and Yeshua.

Acts 20:21, Romans 5:1, 5:11, 15:6, 1st Corinthians 15:57, 2nd Corinthians 1:3, 2nd Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 1:3 , Galatians 6:14, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:17, Ephesians 3:14, Ephesians 5:20, Colossians 1:3, 1st Thessalonians 1:3, 1st Thessalonians 3:11, 1st Thessalonians 3:13, 1st Thessalonians 5:23, 2nd Thessalonians 1:8, 2nd Thessalonians 1:12, 2nd Thessalonians 2:16, Hebrews 13:20, 1st Peter 1:3, Jude 1:21

So most denominations do not adhere to the Nicene Creed. Further some do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a God, rather a spirit that emanates from God the Father or God the Son or both. Part of the confusion was caused by not giving the Holy Spirit a name and or calling this Deity a Spirit or a Ghost.
The Holy Spirit is a God.

To say that there is only one God, to a certain degree is correct because Yahweh is unique in that He is Almighty the Supreme Being and senior to all. As Christ said, the Father is greater than I.

Most theologians do not endorse any one denomination because the have too many false beliefs like the one God formula or Original Sin or have a list of man-made sins that they use to edify themselves and condemn others and drive them away from Christianity.

I worship at several churches….denominations. I do not go there because of the correctness of their beliefs….I go to worship the Godhead and fellowship with Christians and support the churches. Of them my favorite is the Holy Ghost churches, Pentecostal, and some do believe in the individually of the Gods.

I believe you are correct about the Nicene Creed. The Father is the Almighty God and Creator and Jesus is Lord, being made so by His God.
I would disagree however that the Holy Spirit is a God

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe you are correct about the Nicene Creed. The Father is the Almighty God and Creator and Jesus is Lord, being made so by His God.
I would disagree however that the Holy Spirit is a God

Saying that the Holy Spirit is not a God reduces everything to a duo.

Three no longer matters. But I run into that a lot, even with people that believe in the thee Gods in one person.

 

[LeviR]

Saying that the Holy Spirit is not a God reduces everything to a duo.

Three no longer matters. But I run into that a lot, even with people that believe in the thee Gods in one person.

Not two Gods but one True God and the One He made to be as Himself.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not two Gods but one True God and the One He made to be as Himself.

If you said begot I will understand.

 

[Butch5]

The Trinity doctrine was codified in the Athanasian Creed around 450 AD.

 

[LeviR]

If you said begot I will understand.

Do you agree the Son had only a human nature(physis) before his resurrection?

 

[LeviR]

The Trinity doctrine was codified in the Athanasian Creed around 450 AD.

Years ago I was a member of an orthodox Trinitarian group led by Dallas Theological Seminary grads. They were discussing the evolution of the Trinity doctrine and the difficulty in comprehending it. They explained how all analogies eventually fail and so making it more difficult to explain.
Their conclusion was that the doctrine is still evolving.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you agree the Son had only a human nature(physis) before his resurrection?

Not exactly.

You know we are speculating at best here. The creed said that after He died He went to Hell. Now I do believe He did go to Hell to confront Satan. But also there is a belief He went to a level of Sheol that He referred to as paradise when He was talking to the thief on the cross. He went to shoal to preach the Gospel to those there. So His Spirit was not like you and me.

If His body was a God could you kill it? So I am going with His body was human and His Spirit was a God, with some form of connection.

Which brings up another topic. When He ascended to the Father did He bring a part of His humanity with Him?
Either way a whole lot of speculation here.

 

[Free]

I did not claim He was created. If you start putting words in my mouth you and I will stop talking….again. Christ was conceived and born the Son of God. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son…..

You have no other option. You stated: "Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created." However, if the Son did not exist prior to all creation, if he did not have absolute existence, as the Father did, then it necessarily follows that he was created. Again, there is no other option. There is God, who is necessary being, and all others are contingent beings.

We have covered this before....
The Son of God in the Old Testament? Does that even make sense?

How can it not? In multiple places in the NT it states that the Son was the agent of creation. I also quoted just one of several instances of Jesus saying he preexisted with the Father, sharing his glory before creation, and then John saying that Isaiah saw the glory of the Son when Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh.

Is there a reason why you and every other anti-Trinitarian here hasn't even attempted to address that? Is there a reason why no anti-Trinitarian can show how two logical arguments I have given regarding 1 Cor 8:6 might be wrong?

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, if "one God, the Father" precludes the Son from also being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from also being Lord. That is basic logic and sound reasoning. Yet, we know that the Father is also Lord.

Second, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence, then it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence. Again, basic logic and sound reasoning.

If you disagree, then please show me where my reasoning is wrong.

Also, John 1:1-18, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2, and Heb 1:10-12 all state that the Son was the agent of creation.

Third, then, if all things were created by or through the Son, then it necessarily follows that the Son cannot be a created thing and is necessary being, just as the Father is.

Again, if you disagree, then show me where my reasoning is wrong.

The Bible does not get into the details of a pre-existent Christ. So I am free to speculate as a possibility. I believe the Gods relate to time different than you and me. We are always in the present. The Gods have an awareness of past, present, and future. When Christ was born He had that awareness.

No. Your speculation is not biblical. Merely having an awareness can in no way make the Son God. If the Father simply taught or somehow just gave the Son awareness of past, present, and future, then you have to show just how it follows that that can make him God.

Now Christ is a full fledged God….but is He God Almighty or the Creator God? NO. That is a Gnostic belief.

No, that isn't Gnostic; it's biblical. The Gnostic belief here is that there is more than one God. The biblical revelation is that there was, is, and ever will be only one God.

I said definition of God. Not what they did. Christ is a God so feeding the world would be a single thought.

You missed my point entirely. If Christ can somehow create enough bread and fish to feed thousands, how cannot it not also be the case that the Holy Spirit also somehow created the embryo into which the nature of the Son went into? Could that not have also been a single thought?

I did not say this either. There is a lot that we cannot comprehend that is real. Two strikes.

You stated: "Now just for the fun of it would you like to explain how a pre-existing God became sperm and fertilized Miriam’s egg so she would conceive?"

Hence, you implied that the Son couldn't have preexisted because he would have to have become sperm and fertilize the egg. Of course, this is why I brought up the feeding of the thousands--because God is the creator of DNA, is he not? Do you really think that if the Son preexisted as deity he would have to become sperm?

Like I said before I was just giving examples of different beliefs about the Trinity. I did not say any of them were true.

And, like I keep repeating, you gave one example of a unitarian view of God, and in so doing, misrepresented Pentecostal beliefs. Again, United Pentecostals or "Jesus Only" do not believe in Trinitarianism:

"Oneness writers strongly deny the doctrine of the Trinity. In the words of David K. Bernard,

“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the trinity, and trinitarianism actually contradicts the Bible. It does not add any positive benefit to the Christian message….the doctrine of the trinity does detract from the important biblical themes of the oneness of God and the absolute deity of Jesus Christ.”

https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/onenes...definition-of-chalcedon-and-oneness-theology/

The Old Testament is monolithic, the New Testament is not. Three named Gods.

The OT is monotheistic, not monolithic. The NT is also monotheistic. If not, then you have made God out to be either a liar or ignorant (certainly not omniscient). Either way, he cannot be the God of the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

Yeshua the Messiah. Yeshua the chrīstós….the anointed.
Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh. Begotten of Him through Miriam.
He is the Son of God….a full fledged God….our Savior….the Anointed.
And He sits on the right hand of the Father.

The word Messiah only appears twice in the Old Testament scriptures, both times in Daniel. What does Messiah mean in the Old Testament scriptures? ….The promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible in connection with the great and terrible day of the Lord which would be the messianic age.

Well since this did not happen during Yeshua ministry, Christians connect the great and terrible day of the Lord with Revelations and Armageddon. A very violent period.

The Jews agree with the whole violent thing. But back in the Old Testament the Jews Connected all that with the messianic age….which was the arrival of the Messiah. And it was their belief that Elijah would come down in a fiery chariot and introduce the Messiah to the Jews. From there the Messiah would take out their oppressors and establish His eternal kingdom. The Jews did not believe that the Messiah would die so there is no second coming of the Messiah in Judaism.
The Jews were essential looking for a human warlord king. This is one of the reasons that they rejected Yeshua as the Messiah. They were not looking for the Son of God, they were not looking for a peace loving Messiah, They were not conserned about being saved from Hell because they did and still do not beleive in Hell. And they were not looking to go to Heaven because Heaven was the abode of God and humans did not normally go there. There were other reasons why the Jews rejected Yeshua. A God impregnating a woman and she delivering a God was a Pagan motif and Yahweh impregnating a woman that was betrothed was considered adultery.
A betrothed woman is engaged to be married and is considered married, or a wife.
And of course Yeshua was teaching things that were contray to their beliefs. And then you have the corrupt nature of the Jewish leadership.

Here's a fun little study if you are up for it sometime, but the word messiah is all over the Old Testament and New Testament. It sometimes refers to other people other than Jesus. Messiah or Christ literally means the anointed one, the anointed, an anointing. The root word is H4899 mashiach but there may be other forms of this word with the same or similar meaning depending on how it was being used in Hebrew grammar. In the New Testament it's G5547 christos.

 

[Grailhunter]

You have no other option. You stated: "Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created." However, if the Son did not exist prior to all creation, if he did not have absolute existence, as the Father did, then it necessarily follows that he was created. Again, there is no other option. There is God, who is necessary being, and all others are contingent beings.

I disagree. The whole process is described in the scriptures …begotten, conceived, and born, not created.

If He pre-existed He could have just appeared on a mountain top.

I am sure Yahweh could have prophesied that way.

 

[Grailhunter]

Third, then, if all things were created by or through the Son, then it necessarily follows that the Son cannot be a created thing and is necessary being, just as the Father is.

I have already explained the awareness in time of Divine beings. Post 154

 

[Grailhunter]

No. Your speculation is not biblical. Merely having an awareness can in no way make the Son God. If the Father simply taught or somehow just gave the Son awareness of past, present, and future, then you have to show just how it follows that that can make him God.

Show me by name Yeshua in the Old Testament scriptures that He did anything.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, that isn't Gnostic; it's biblical. The Gnostic belief here is that there is more than one God. The biblical revelation is that there was, is, and ever will be only one God.

You obvious do not know much about Gnostics.
But.....Yahweh....Yeshua....Holy Spirit. Get a calculator out if you cannot count.

 

[Grailhunter]

You missed my point entirely. If Christ can somehow create enough bread and fish to feed thousands, how cannot it not also be the case that the Holy Spirit also somehow created the embryo into which the nature of the Son went into? Could that not have also been a single thought?

LOL So now you are using the word create.

Create an embryo? That is not how a woman conceive? But still if the scripture said the Holy Spirit created and embryo that would be fine. But then Yeshua would not be begotten of Yahweh and not the Son of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hence, you implied that the Son couldn't have preexisted because he would have to have become sperm and fertilize the egg. Of course, this is why I brought up the feeding of the thousands--because God is the creator of DNA, is he not? Do you really think that if the Son preexisted as deity he would have to become sperm?

Again, show me in the Old Testament scriptures that it says Yeshua did anything.

 

[Grailhunter]

And, like I keep repeating, you gave one example of a unitarian view of God, and in so doing, misrepresented Pentecostal beliefs. Again, United Pentecostals or "Jesus Only" do not believe in Trinitarianism:

Oneness Pentecostalism, also known as "Jesus Only" or oneness theology, rejects the Trinity and instead believes that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different manifestations of God, not separate persons. Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus is the Father and the Spirit, and that the terms "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are titles of positions held by God, not names of separate people. For example, Oneness Pentecostals believe that the term "Holy Spirit" is a descriptive title for God manifesting himself through the Christian Church and in the world.

Is that more accurate....