Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Runningman]

Runningman--- sorry that's a "cop out". Can any of us say that we were "with God" before the world began? Jesus says "glorify me with the glory I HAD WITH YOU before the world began". None of us can say we were "with God" before the world began. We were in his thoughts---but we did not EXIST. Jesus is clearly stating He existed before the world began. "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS GOD". (John 1:1). John 17:5 clearly shows us that Jesus existed LONG BEFORE Abraham existed. That is why he says "Before Abraham was, I AM". (John 8:58). Note that he doesn't say "before Abraham was I WAS". No--He says "before Abraham was, I AM". Meaning: I HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED. God the Son has ALWAYS EXISTED.

In Ephesians 1:4 it says "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world..." but a person who doesn't exist can't be chosen. One must either accept what the verse says at face value, that people existed before their physical birth or this refers to God choosing people in His set plan and foreknowledge of His desired outcome.

So what do the chosen people in Ephesians 1:4 have in common with Jesus? Neither the people in Ephesians 1:4 or Jesus have any examples of them saying or doing anything in the Old Testament, but they were both chosen in advance in a prophetic sense.

In Isaiah 42:1, God prophetically chose Jesus, saying, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth..."

Yet, Matthew didn't say that Isaiah 42:1 was fulfilled until the New Testament in Matthew 12:17,18, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased..."

In other words, the one we know as Jesus was not chosen until after his birth. I know more examples than this, but I think this will help you see why I am saying what I do. It's scriptural.

 

[Fish153]

In Ephesians 1:4 it says "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world..." but a person who doesn't exist can't be chosen. One must either accept what the verse says at face value, that people existed before their physical birth or this refers to God choosing people in His set plan and foreknowledge of His desired outcome.

So what do the chosen people in Ephesians 1:4 have in common with Jesus? Neither the people in Ephesians 1:4 or Jesus have any examples of them saying or doing anything in the Old Testament, but they were both chosen in advance in a prophetic sense.

In Isaiah 42:1, God prophetically chose Jesus, saying, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth..."

Yet, Matthew didn't say that Isaiah 42:1 was fulfilled until the New Testament in Matthew 12:17,18, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased..."

In other words, the one we know as Jesus was not chosen until after his birth. I know more examples than this, but I think this will help you see why I am saying what I do. It's scriptural.

There is a big difference between being "chosen in Him" and "being with Him before the world began". Being "chosen in Him" is the foreknowledge of God. We didn't EXIST with God before the world began. No where does the Bible say that. It says we live once and then we die and are judged (Hebrews 9:27). But Jesus is clearly stating that He was WITH THE FATHER before the world began. Look at the verse again "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). The Jews picked up stones to stone Him because He was literally calling Himself God. Look at the words of Nathanael when Jesus says "Before Philip called you I saw you under the fig tree" (John 1). Nathanael says "You are the Son of God, You are the KING OF ISRAEL" (John 1:51). The KING OF ISRAEL is YAHWEH Himself! Jesus is God the SON, who was incarnated in human flesh. He has ALWAYS existed.

 

[Free]

Free, did you see my post about the video link?

No, I didn't.

 

[Fish153]

And I came across a great presentation on this..

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

All manner of blasphemy is forgiven if against Jesus, but not the Holy Spirit. You can chose not to believe in Christ but you will have a problem if you do it against the Holy Ghost. Two beings.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me and He has anointed Me... Jesus could not anoint Himself, a priest could not anoint himself. Moses used oil which represents the Holy Spirit to anoint Aaron, here the Spirit anoints Christ. Two beings.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Here is says God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost. So we have God the Father and is says anointed Jesus by the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 5:1
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Every High Priest taken from a man is ordained for man, not by himself. No man taketh this manner of himself
but he that is chosen by God, Christ (who came as fully man/fully God) did not make Himself High Priest ordained for men, the Holy Spirit is the anointing power .

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Here we see and declaration where Christ says a servant is not greater(authority) than the master (lord), but then says neither He that is sent(clearly a reference to Himself) greater (authority) than He(God the Father) that sent Him.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And this is life eternal, to know the only true God(Father) and Jesus Christ(Son) who thou(Father) has sent. Life eternal is knowing God and Jesus Christ, they are equated in what can only be the same standing.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Comforter(Holy Ghost), who the Father(God) will send in My(Jesus) name, it is representing Christ sent by the Father. Now we begin to understand what Christ was saying when He declares one is not greater than the one who sent him.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

But the Spirit of Truth which Jesus sends (He is God)..

1 Corinthians 2:9
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Eye has not seen or ear heard as God has revealed through the Spirit which searches all the deep things of God, (which we see was sent by God), and knows all the deep things of God has to be at the same level. (He who can only search and/or know the deep things of God, is only God)

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

All things have been delivered to Jesus (He is saying I know the Father and the Father knows me, so He knows everything.) They have different responsibility in the GodHead. The Holy Ghost does not have the same responsibility as the God the Father or the Son.

Luke 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jesus is coming out of being baptized by john in the water, and we see the Holy Ghost as a dove and a voice from heaven, (God the Father) claims Him as 'beloved Son'. Three separate personalities but One substance.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

I (Jesus) will pray to the Father and He will send another Comforter (The Holy Ghost). Three separate personalities and different responsibilities in the GodHead, but yet one.

I agree 100% with your posts. It was interesting that you used Matthew 12:31,32 also. That is a very good point. Those verses clearly show more than one person as it is the Spirit against whom blasphemy is an eternal sin. Thank you for what you have shared! God bless you.

 

[Runningman]

There is a big difference between being "chosen in Him" and "being with Him before the world began". Being "chosen in Him" is the foreknowledge of God. We didn't EXIST with God before the world began. No where does the Bible say that. It says we live once and then we die and are judged (Hebrews 9:27). But Jesus is clearly stating that He was WITH THE FATHER before the world began. Look at the verse again "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). The Jews picked up stones to stone Him because He was literally calling Himself God. Look at the words of Nathanael when Jesus says "Before Philip called you I saw you under the fig tree" (John 1). Nathanael says "You are the Son of God, You are the KING OF ISRAEL" (John 1:51). The KING OF ISRAEL is YAHWEH Himself! Jesus is God the SON, who was incarnated in human flesh. He has ALWAYS existed.

Sorry, but that reply is a bit of a cop out since it pretty much disregards the fact that Jesus and others were not literally around to be chosen in any sense of the word until after they were born according to Matthew. Before the world was even created, God was already handpicking people and choosing them as if they already existed. It's because God doesn't require someone to actually exist in order to actually choose them or know them.

Same thing with Jeremiah 1:1, where it's written "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." God said before Jeremiah was in his mother's belly He "knew" him. Now, we once again have to either take what the Bible says at face value and accept that Jeremiah actually existed his conception and was able to be known by God or that God knew Jeremiah in His set plan and foreknowledge.

What do Jeremiah and Jesus have in common with each other? Neither were around actually saying or doing anything in Scripture before their birth.

To really drive this point home, Revelation 13:8 says, "the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Now one important point here, Jesus wasn't actually slain from the foundation of the world. He was slain one time in Israel. Revelation 13:8 is in regards to God's set plan and foreknowledge regarding Jesus. Acts 2:23 says, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: " In other words, God planned the crucifixion of Jesus well in advance.

 

[Runningman]

I agree 100% with your posts. It was interesting that you used Matthew 12:31,32 also. That is a very good point. Those verses clearly show more than one person as it is the Spirit against whom blasphemy is an eternal sin. Thank you for what you have shared! God bless you.

Those verses also show that blaspheming Jesus is forgivable whereas blaspheming God is not forgivable. Therefore, speaking against Jesus is not equal to speaking against God, in accordance with Jesus isn't God.

 

[Runningman]

It context. There is only one YHWH. However, His Messenger speaks on His behalf and uses His name. YHWH stated this plainly.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009.

YHWH sent His messenger. He said His name is in Him. Thus, His messenger can be called YHWH. Also notice that YHWH gave this messenger the authority to forgive sin. Who beside YHWH could forgive sin? Who came in the NT with the authority to forgive sin? It was Jesus. The only ones in Scripture who could forgive sins were, YHWH, His Mesainger, who was Jesus, and the apostles who Jesus gave that authority to.

Yes, I don't have any problem with the angel of the LORD speaking for or acting on behalf of the LORD because elsewhere they are clearly distinct beings one from another.

 

[Butch5]

There are people that think Yeshua is a pilot of a time traveling flying Saucer.
Scripture seem to spark the imagination, that is not entire a bad thing.
God in incognito, God in secret, God in hiding. As soon as the Old Testament identifies Him, Judaism is no longer a religion of one God.

The name game….as soon as they took God’s name out of the OT the identity of God became fuzzy and fueled the imagination to plug things in to the storyline. 24,000 modifications to do that, they should get something for their effort.

And after that Christians could plug anything anywhere saying it is a Deity. And no matter what Yahweh said about being the only God and there was no one like Him, His words fall on deaf ears or are twisted….When they read Him saying He is the only God and there is no other like Him….In their minds He is saying I am the only God, three, three, three. Hence the story of the power of false beliefs.

To you it was shown that you might know that the YHWH, He is God; there is no other besides Him. Deuteronomy 4:35
(This is how it appeared in the scriptures….God’s name appeared in the scriptures around 6,800 times until they took it out and replaced it with the words God or Lord.)

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the YHWH is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, YHWH is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

I am the YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8

“You are my witnesses,” declares the YHWH , “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8

I am the YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; Isaiah 45:5

For thus says YHWH, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am YHWH, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18

Remember the former things of old; for I am YHWH, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that YHWH is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? Malachi 2:10

All those passages were sojen by YHWH's messenger. YHWH has been made known by Hus Son.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, I don't have any problem with the angel of the LORD speaking for or acting on behalf of the LORD because elsewhere they are clearly distinct beings one from another.

The Father sent His Angel to go among the people because they were a stiff-necked people, and if He went Himself they would be consumed in the way.

Exo 33:2 - And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Exo 33:3 - Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

 

[Fish153]

Those verses also show that blaspheming Jesus is forgivable whereas blaspheming God is not forgivable. Therefore, speaking against Jesus is not equal to speaking against God, in accordance with Jesus isn't God.

Of course Jesus is God. How could a finite being be the “exact representation” (Heb. 1:3) of an infinite being? How could God create Everything THROUGH a finite being? You must be a Jehovah’s Witness. If not, you haven’t read your Bible. Jesus is clearly God.

 

[Butch5]

Of course Jesus is God. How could a finite being be the “exact representation” (Heb. 1:3) of an infinite being? How could God create Everything THROUGH a finite being? You must be a Jehovah’s Witness. If not, you haven’t read your Bible. Jesus is clearly God.

Where does it say that?

 

[LeviR]

Of course Jesus is God. How could a finite being be the “exact representation” (Heb. 1:3) of an infinite being? How could God create Everything THROUGH a finite being? You must be a Jehovah’s Witness. If not, you haven’t read your Bible. Jesus is clearly God.

Heb 1:3 is referring to Jesus after was raised from the dead to die no more and who sits at the right hand of his Father in heaven.
All mortal man is created in the image of God. Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God is said to be the express image of his Father.
“Express image” refers to a stamp of the original.
God is the original, and Jesus an imprint or stamp of Him.

 

[Runningman]

Of course Jesus is God. How could a finite being be the “exact representation” (Heb. 1:3) of an infinite being?

You're asking good questions. People, finite beings, are made in the image of God, an infinite being.

How could God create Everything THROUGH a finite being?

Another good question, because does not Colossians 1:15-16 say Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that God created through him? What do you suppose God created through a man (an image)?

You must be a Jehovah’s Witness. If not, you haven’t read your Bible. Jesus is clearly God.

You must be a Roman Catholic. If not, you haven't read your Bible. Jesus clearly isn't God.

 

[LeviR]

You're asking good questions. People, finite beings, are made in the image of God, an infinite being.


Another good question, because does not Colossians 1:15-16 say Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that God created through him? What do you suppose God created through a man (an image)?


You must be a Roman Catholic. If not, you haven't read your Bible. Jesus clearly isn't God.

Do you believe in the rapture?

 

[Runningman]

Do you believe in the rapture?

Yes I do. I believe Jesus is the model for the resurrection and the rapture. He was resurrected on earth and then taken to heaven so Jesus was himself raptured.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Those verses also show that blaspheming Jesus is forgivable whereas blaspheming God is not forgivable. Therefore, speaking against Jesus is not equal to speaking against God, in accordance with Jesus isn't God.

You are not using Jesus's exact words in making your claim .
His words are critical to the point your incorrectly making.
Jesus said that all manner of sin against the "Son of Man" will be forgiven, emphasis on His humanity .
Not the Son of God

Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

He makes no such exception for the Son of God. with the possible exception when in order to accomplish the forgiveness it required the extra measure of Jesus Himself to make special pleading to the Father in the case of those who railed , not upon the Son Of Man, but upon the Son Of God as He was never more a King than He was the moment He accomplished Salvation for us upon the cross.

Mat 27:54
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mar 15:29
"And they that passed by railed on Him..." ( The Son of God, not Son of Man)

Luk 23:34
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

 

[Runningman]

You are not using Jesus's exact words in making your claim .
His words are critical to the point your incorrectly making.
Jesus said that all manner of sin against the "Son of Man" will be forgiven, emphasis on His humanity .
Not the Son of God

Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

He makes no such exception for the Son of God. with the possible exception when in order to accomplish the forgiveness it required the extra measure of Jesus Himself to make special pleading to the Father in the case of those who railed , not upon the Son Of Man, but upon the Son Of God as He was never more a King than He was the moment He accomplished Salvation for us upon the cross.

Mat 27:54
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mar 15:29
"And they that passed by railed on Him..." ( The Son of God, not Son of Man)

Luk 23:34
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Let's look at the exact wording. It's pretty clear that everything someone does, even speaking against Jesus, will be forgiven. The only exception is speaking against the Spirit. That means Jesus isn't the Spirit and he isn't God. The very passage makes the argument for me. I have nothing to add to it.

Matthew 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[LeviR]

Yes I do. I believe Jesus is the model for the resurrection and the rapture. He was resurrected on earth and then taken to heaven so Jesus was himself raptured.

It’s something to keep in mind while reading Colossians.
Paul speaks of the hope we have laid up in heaven and then says we have been translated into the kingdom.
In one place he calls it a hope and another says we’re already there.

The Bible speaks like this as a way of encouragement. In one place we are to receive eternal life and another we already possess it.

In Colossians, those believers who are to be raptured, and whom Christ has created, and who are in heaven, are the invisible thrones, dominions, principalities and powers.
He also creates the visible and on earth thrones, dominions, principalities and powers.

To say the one is invisible, does not mean immaterial, because they have been raised with a spiritual body. They are simply not seen in his kingdom. They rule behind the seens
The visible kingdom is ruled by visible men.

 

[LeviR]

Let's look at the exact wording. It's pretty clear that everything someone does, even speaking against Jesus, will be forgiven. The only exception is speaking against the Spirit. That means Jesus isn't the Spirit and he isn't God. The very passage makes the argument for me. I have nothing to add to it.

Matthew 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Jesus is called “the Lord the Spirit” because where the spirit is, is liberty.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit would be to attribute the Spirit to something diabolical.

 

[LeviR]

Jesus is called “the Lord the Spirit” because where the spirit is, is liberty.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit would be to attribute the Spirit to something diabolical.

When Jesus performed miracles by the Holy Spirit, the Pharisees said he had a devil.
They attributed the miracles of the Holy Spirit as something diabolical.
To do such is unforgivable.