Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Grailhunter]

I hope you realize what the text actually states here: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” This is important because "He" doesn't appear in the Greek.

That is funny. I have yet to see any intelligence in your reasoning.

The simple meaning of I am, because believing that He was born before Abraham would not save them. They had to believe in Him as Savior to be saved.

 

[Grailhunter]

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (ESV)

I have already covered the…. for I am YHWH, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,….Now find that statement in the New Testament. Then Yahweh had a Son that was a God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Again, you completely avoided the points I made. You're not even trying to address the different words being used in the Greek and their different meanings.

Again, you completely avoided the points I made. You're not even trying to address the different words being used in the Greek and their different meanings.

I do not understand what you saying.

It is not over the word begotten…we have already went over it in the post you just replied to.

 

[Butch5]

That's one way to yet again avoid addressing the logic of the two arguments I presented. You anti-Trinitarians have all sorts of ways of dismissing things without addressing them. It's shameful, actually. On this particular point--the two logical arguments from 1 Cor 8:6--neither you nor any other anti-Trinitarian has even tried to show where my logic is wrong; not once.

Once again:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, if "one God, the Father" precludes the Son from also being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from also being Lord. That is basic logic and sound reasoning. Yet, we know that the Father is also Lord.

Second, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence, then it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence. Again, basic logic and sound reasoning.

If you disagree, then please show me where my reasoning is wrong.

The context of the passage is Paul contrasting the many gods of the pagans with the one God of the Christians. Paul says there is one God, the Father. No matter how we understand stand the phrase 'one Lord Jesus Christ'. Jesus is precluded from being God because Paul states unequivocally that the one God is the Father. Even Jesus said the Father is the only True God. If we understand Scripture any way that doesn't align with these statements we've got something wrong. How can we understand 'One Lord Jesus Christ.' In the ultimate sense the Father is the only Lord. Paul states this.

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Paul tells us that the Father is the only Lord of Lords. So why then does Paul say, 'One Lord Jesus Christ?' Because all authority has been given to Him. God has delegated all authority to Jesus. As I've stated God said that His name is in His Messinger. Thus His Messenger stands in the place of God or the One Lord.

Paul said that God would judge the world through the man Jesus Christ. He didn't say God would judge the world through the God Jesus Christ. He said man. Note that this was after Christ's resurrection. After the resurrection Paul is calling Jesus a man. Not a God. That begs the question, how can man be God? But, Jesus is the one who forgives sins. He's the one who communicates God's words to man. He stands in the place and authority of God. Thus He can be called the One Lord. Again, this is in contrast to the many gods and lords of the pagans.

 

[Grailhunter]

What do you mean "What?"? Look at what you quoted from me: "Where?".

How about you just talk about what you want.

 

[Grailhunter]

As I have pointed out more than once, Jesus clearly wasn't born until the NT, it's rather what starts the whole thing off. So, you will never find his name in the OT. Whether or not there is clear proof of the Son acting in the OT is not relevant since the NT clearly states that he was.

So we disagree, no shock.

Again show me were Yeshua does something in the Old Testament scriptures or they say something to each other like in the New Testament. As soon as you do Judaism is no longer about believing in one God.

 

[Grailhunter]

agent of creation

“agent of creation” Secret agent, hiding agent, invisible agent, MIB? But not a visible agent as in visible in the scriptures.

 

[Fish153]

Being like God, partaking of God's divine nature, is your calling. This isn't something that was supposed to be exclusive to Jesus.

Ephesians 4
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2 Peter 1
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

"Being like God, partaking of God's divine nature, is your calling. This isn't something that was supposed to be exclusive to Jesus". Wow. I suggest you read Hebrews 1 carefully, and the following chapters. Jesus is exalted far above all angels and all men. Jesus is GOD the SON. That is what Hebrews is explaining to us. He is not an angel or any other CREATED being. The throne in Heaven in Revelation is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb". God does not share his throne or glory with ANYONE. In the OT God says that "all knees shall bow to Him and every tongue confess"--Paul states that "every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". This is clearly teaching us that Jesus Christ is as much God as the Father is. Jesus Christ is God the SON and should be honored as such. That's as "exclusive" as one can possibly be. We will "be like Jesus" when he appears---but we will not be Jesus--He is the Son of God.

 

[Runningman]

"Being like God, partaking of God's divine nature, is your calling. This isn't something that was supposed to be exclusive to Jesus". Wow. I suggest you read Hebrews 1 carefully, and the following chapters. Jesus is exalted far above all angels and all men. Jesus is GOD the SON. That is what Hebrews is explaining to us. He is not an angel or any other CREATED being. The throne in Heaven in Revelation is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb". God does not share his throne or glory with ANYONE. In the OT God says that "all knees shall bow to Him and every tongue confess"--Paul states that "every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". This is clearly teaching us that Jesus Christ is as much God as the Father is. Jesus Christ is God the SON and should be honored as such. That's as "exclusive" as one can possibly be. We will "be like Jesus" when he appears---but we will not be Jesus--He is the Son of God.

Yes, I also suggest you read Hebrews 1 carefully. What about it did you find most interesting? Did you notice all of the parts about Jesus not being God in it?

 

[JLB]

Yes, I also suggest you read Hebrews 1 carefully. What about it did you find most interesting? Did you notice all of the parts about Jesus not being God in it?

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Son created the heavens and the earth.
The Son is called LORD.


Did God create the heavens and the earth or did man?

 

[LeviR]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Son created the heavens and the earth.
The Son is called LORD.


Did God create the heavens and the earth or did man?

He would give to him the throne of his father David. That throne was called the throne of the LORD.

Rev 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[LeviR]

"Being like God, partaking of God's divine nature, is your calling. This isn't something that was supposed to be exclusive to Jesus". Wow. I suggest you read Hebrews 1 carefully, and the following chapters. Jesus is exalted far above all angels and all men. Jesus is GOD the SON. That is what Hebrews is explaining to us. He is not an angel or any other CREATED being. The throne in Heaven in Revelation is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb". God does not share his throne or glory with ANYONE. In the OT God says that "all knees shall bow to Him and every tongue confess"--Paul states that "every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". This is clearly teaching us that Jesus Christ is as much God as the Father is. Jesus Christ is God the SON and should be honored as such. That's as "exclusive" as one can possibly be. We will "be like Jesus" when he appears---but we will not be Jesus--He is the Son of God.

You’re right, and all that philosophical mumbo jumbo about “eternally begotten” and “three persons” is wrong.

 

[Fish153]

You’re right, and all that philosophical mumbo jumbo about “eternally begotten” and “three persons” is wrong.

I guess you are being sarcastic. But at the transfiguration when Jesus revealed who He really is (and Peter, John and James all saw it) who was the voice speaking from Heaven that said "this is my beloved Son, hear him"? Was Jesus speaking to Jesus? Hmmmmmm.

 

[LeviR]

I guess you are being sarcastic. But at the transfiguration when Jesus revealed who He really is (and Peter, John and James all saw it) who was the voice speaking from Heaven that said "this is my beloved Son, hear him"? Was Jesus speaking to Jesus? Hmmmmmm.

Huh?

I’m pretty sure it was his God speaking.

 

[JLB]

He would give to him the throne of his father David. That throne was called the throne of the LORD.

Rev 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I posted.


The Son created the heavens and the earth.

8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


Do you believe the heavens and the earth were created by God or by a man?

 

[Runningman]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Son created the heavens and the earth.
The Son is called LORD.


Did God create the heavens and the earth or did man?

Hebrews 1:8,9 is quoted from Psalm 45:6,7 where the person being anointed by God in the context is a human with a foreign queen. While it doesn't specify who exactly that is by name, we do know that God and Jesus don't have queens. One of the possible contenders for who Psalm 45 is about is Solomon considering his wives were foreign (1 Kings 7:8, 11:1)

Psalm 45:6,7 isn't about Solomon or any other man being God.

Therefore, when the author transferred Psalm 45:6,7 to Hebrews 1:8,9 he was not saying that Solomon is God. The author is applying Psalm 45 to Jesus, but it doesn't transfer from the original context that Jesus is God. The original context refers to a ruler or judge with emphatic emphasis on him being a "god" with a lower case g.

This is evidenced by the fact that God anointed him, based on the pre-requisite of loving righteousness and hating wickedness, above his companions. Means to say, that if Jesus is God then at one point he was less than or equal to his companions which isn't a description of Lord God Almighty.

Therefore, in Hebrews 1:10, the LORD who created is the same God who anointed he who is inferior to God above his companions. That means Jesus isn't God.

Anything else you see in Hebrews 1?

 

[Runningman]

You’re right, and all that philosophical mumbo jumbo about “eternally begotten” and “three persons” is wrong.

Right. There are a lot of these buzzwords like "God the Son" and the like which don't actually exist in Scripture. Worth its own thread examining the laundry list of Trinitarian buzzwords that don't actually exist in the Bible. As you said elsewhere, Trinitarianism is a philosophical theology not a Biblical theology.

 

[Fish153]

Huh?

I’m pretty sure it was his God speaking.

Correct. God the FATHER (from Heaven) speaking about God the SON (being transfigured in front of his disciples on the Holy Mount). TWO PERSONS. The point I was making is that there are many places in Scripture that clearly show God is made up of THREE PERSONS (THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT). The Trinity is a Biblical Doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

Correct. God the FATHER (from Heaven) speaking about God the SON (being transfigured in front of his disciples on the Holy Mount). TWO PERSONS. The point I was making is that there are many places in Scripture that clearly show God is made up of THREE PERSONS (THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT). The Trinity is a Biblical Doctrine.

Can you give some examples fo those many places?

 

[Fish153]

Can you give some examples fo those many places?

Sure.
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". (Matt. 3:16,17)

Note: The SON is in the water being baptized. The SPIRIT is descending from Heaven. The FATHER speaks from Heaven and says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". The THREE persons of the TRINITY are clearly shown.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”(Matt. 28:19,20).

This is a direct command from Jesus Christ. He clearly commands that we baptize in the NAME (not "names") of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (One God made up of three persons). Oneness Pentecostalists say that Jesus is alone God who has "expressed" himself three different ways. Then why doesn't Jesus command "Baptize them in my Name"? No---he clearly commands to baptize in the NAME of THREE PERSONS.