Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[LeviR]

Sorry bro, but the term Spirit of Christ is what the scriptures use.


But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


The Spirit of Christ, the same Spirit of Christ that dwells in Christians today, dwelt in the Old Testament prophets, and testified of His sufferings as a Man.


The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of the LORD who spoke through the prophets.



JLB

Your failing to make the distinction from a prophet to a believer.
The Spirit of God known as the Holy Spirit, is what moved in a miraculous way through the prophets of old. That same Spirit of God moved in Christ in a miraculous way. Therefore, the Spirit of Christ, as it moved in the prophets was the same Holy Spirit.
The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is what makes the believers to be alive in Christ and which will someday grant them eternal life by that Spirit.
It all the same Spirit of the Father. Sometimes it’s called the Holy Spirit when it is manifest in a miraculous way.

 

[JLB]

The Spirit of God known as the Holy Spirit, is what moved in a miraculous way through the prophets of old.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

The scriptures show us the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The Spirit of the LORD God, and the Spirit of Christ are the same.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1,5


The Day of the LORD is also called the Day of Christ.


But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:1


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2




JLB

 

[LeviR]

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

The scriptures show us the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The Spirit of the LORD God, and the Spirit of Christ are the same.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1,5


The Day of the LORD is also called the Day of Christ.


But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:1


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2




JLB

To say the believer is not in the flesh is the same as saying they already possess eternal life. This is only because it is guaranteed.
Now, while actually being in the flesh, if we walk in the Spirit of truth, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh which cause us to sin.
No one has hope if it is already realized. And the hope is resurrection from the dead to eternal,life.

 

[Grailhunter]

No such name in the Bible as Yahweh.

The Hebrew is YHWH.


Jesus Christ is the LORD; YHWH the LORD GOD.

Yes, as a Man, Jesus prayed to the Father.

As a Son, Jesus will always seek to do the Father’s will.


Who returns with the saints on the Day of the LORD?

The Father or the Son?


Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

YHWH Elohim.



JLB

It is just a pronunciation.
Don’t get me started on words. LOL Oh too late.

No one knows where the word Jesus came from, it is impossible that it is from anything in the scriptures. And there is a reason for that.

The Greek word that most people think is Yeshua’s name…. Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς) is a Greek word not a name….it means healer. And there is no J’s in the scriptures it is all Y’s. Christ name was a common Hebrew name that could be found in the Old Testament before they changed all the Y’s to J’s.

As it is now the names of the Christian Gods are not in your Bible unless you own a Sacred Names Bible.

 

[Runningman]

Their false doctrines make “son of man” to be an idea totally foreign to scripture.
It means Jesus was originally a son of Adam. However being raised from the dead and granted eternal life he no longer can be said to have a mortal mother and father. He only has his God and Father as both his God and Father and no God mother. He was born of the Spirit of holiness by being raised from the dead.
This means he is still man but an immortal man as opposed to a mortal man.

Yes. Absolutely. They kept calling a Jesus a man decades after he was taken to heaven. Does Paul statement sound like he is talking about Jesus as God?

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Runningman]

Since it seems you are not going to answer my question, then I will answer it for you.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


Question:

Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him?


Answer:

Because He just claimed to be God, by saying before Abraham was, I AM, He was invoking the name of YHWH the LORD God of Israel.

That's why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him... and you know it.



JLB

Again, you have presented a theological argument about what you think Jesus said. This topic began with me asking "Did Jesus ever say "I am God?" and you replied with your theology and verses you believe support your beliefs.

So Jesus didn't ever directly say he is God. Now that we know Jesus never said that, who did Jesus say he is? In John 8:40 Jesus said he is a man who heard the truth from God. The entire account of Jesus in the gospels is concerning a man whom God chose, anointed, and empowered to be Lord and Messiah.

Matthew 12
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 10
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

[Runningman]

No Law because the Mosaic Law does not address Yahweh having a Son.

But yes the Jews would take offence to it.
If they caught a Jew worshiping any other God but Yahweh, they would call it Idolatry and things would not go good for that Jew.

Psalm 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

 

[Runningman]

Daniel is not debatable because it can be interpreted different ways.
If I remember He only references the abomination of desolation in Daniel.

What is your take on this verse?

Daniel 7
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

 

[Grailhunter]

Psalm 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Don’t make your religion by taking a scripture out of context. Next thing you know you will be hating your father and mother to be a Christian. Read the whole Psalm. It is one of the reasons that the Jews were looking for a human warlord king messiah.

 

[Free]

I have quoted this several times and I agree, Yahweh was the only God in the Old Testament.

No, you actually don't agree. There is simply no way you can actually agree; you can say you do, but that doesn't mean you do. And I will make this clear.

If Yahweh says there is no other, then there is no other and never will be. Such is the nature of God. If one God existed in the OT, then there can ever be only one God. For another god to come into existence, he would have to have been created and, by definition, cannot be God. It's pretty basic reasoning.

Why not address this verse?:

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (ESV)

So, why do you argue there are three in the NT? According to your position, God either lied here or simply didn't know there were two others. Either way, he cannot then be God.

So what is your point?

The point is, there is no other God. Never has been another and never will be another.

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other. (ESV)

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, (ESV)

We know from the NT that the Son was involved in creation (John 1:3, 10; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10-12). We know that the Son was involved in Creation, as was the Holy Spirit (Gen 1:2). So, if I were to count, and I have taken advanced calculus and linear algebra in university, that makes three in the OT.

Yet, you say, "Yahweh was the only God in the Old Testament." So, did Yahweh (the Father only, according to you) create everything by himself or did he not? It seems as though you have caught Yahweh in yet another lie, which means, again, that he cannot be God.

I have already given you over a hundred scriptures that prove you and the one God formula wrong.
What do you got?

You haven't given a single one. Not one.

The main argument is, there are three divine persons, I'm sure we can at least agree on that, but there is and ever will be only one God, according to Yahweh himself.

Another issue is that Jesus claimed preexistence several times, which is why John also said Jesus preexisted as God. Besides John 1:1-18, we have this:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

But, what did Yahweh say?

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

Is Jesus contradicting what Yahweh said? Let's first look at something John said:

Joh 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (ESV)

Who does John say Isaiah saw in "his glory and spoke of him"? Clearly, John is meaning that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus, or rather, the Son. Looking at the context of what Isaiah was talking about:

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”
Isa 6:4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
…
Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”
Isa 6:9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” (ESV)

So, who did Isaiah actually see? He saw Yahweh in all his glory. Once again, John supports what he said in John 1:1--that the Word was in intimate, interpersonal relationship with God for all eternity past, meaning that the Word is also God in nature.

Throughout the entire book of John, from beginning to end, there is one consistent message about who Jesus, the Son of God, is--God in human flesh, both truly man and truly God, who, in becoming flesh subjected himself to the will of the Father for our salvation and the redemption of creation.

John applies an OT passage about Yahweh to Jesus, just as the writer of Hebrews does in Heb 1:10-12. Not to mention that Paul equates confessing "Jesus is Lord" with calling on the name of Yahweh in Rom 10:9-13:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

We both know that Paul is quoting Joel 2:

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. (ESV)

Not only does that substantiate the use of "LORD" in the OT, we know that at least sometimes when kurios is used of Jesus is means YHWH.

That's three passages where NT writers apply passages of Yahweh to the Son. It's pretty clear.

 

[Free]

He said that in the Old Testament.....But in the New Testament He had a Son that was a God.

If he was created, if there was a time when he did not exist, he cannot, by definition, be God. You say only the Father existed in the OT, but both the OT and NT tell us otherwise. So, where did this Son come from?

Just giving different views of the Trinity.

But you gave one view that wasn't Trinitarian at all; it was Modalism, which is unitarian. That's my point.

Correct there are 3 Gods.
Count them up.
God the Father Yahweh
God the Son Yeshua
God the Holy Spirt

But, there is and ever will be only one God. There are three divine persons, but only one God. There is no other option.

 

[Runningman]

Don’t make your religion by taking a scripture out of context. Next thing you know you will be hating your father and mother to be a Christian. Read the whole Psalm. It is one of the reasons that the Jews were looking for a human warlord king messiah.

Psalm 2:7 is quoted multiple times in the New Testament, properly understood in a context that has nothing to do with Jesus being a warlord. I don't care what the nonunderstanding Pharisees said of Jesus. Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, and Hebrews 5:5 are about Jesus being the Son of God and it happened on a particular day. These verses demonstrate the Father is YHWH, the only God, and Jesus isn't.

 

[Grailhunter]

What is your take on this verse?

Daniel 7
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. Daniel 7:13

Daniel is full of Prophesies and symbologies….animal works. A little fuzzy, why are UFO pictures always fuzzy? Son of Man is a very popular phrase in the Old Testament and it usually points to Ezekiel. Yahweh called Ezekiel the Son of Man. Christ called Himself the Son of Man. There is no explanation for it. And do not get hung up on the capitalization, Hebrew is all caps.

If you are trying to suggest that this is a prophecy of the Messiah, I can’t say it is not and I cannot say it is. But if you look at the chapter it is more like a Revelation time frame….lots of violence. And it is exactly what the Jews were hoping for….a violent Messiah. I cannot say anything definite because it is a fuzzy prophecy….Except to ask Daniel to send us a clear picture, what good is a fuzzy picture? What good is a prophecy that is not clear?

Job 25:6, Job 35:8, Psalm 35:8, Isaiah 51:12, Isaiah 56:2, Jeremiah 49:18, Jeremiah 49:33, Ezekiel 2:1, 2:6, 2:8, 3:1, 3:3, 3:4, 3:10, 3:17, 3:25, 4:1, 4:16, 5:1, 6:2, 7:2, 8:5, 8:6, 8:8, 8:12. 8:15, 8:17, 11:2, 11:4, 11:15, 12:2, 12:3, 12:9, 12:18, 12:22, 12:27, 13:2, 13:17, 14:3, 14:13, 15:2, 16:2, 17:2, 20:3, 20:4, 20:27, 20:46, 21:2, 21:6, 21:9, 21:12, 21:14, 21:19, 21:28, 22:2, 22:18, 22:24, 23:2, 23:36, 24:2, 24:16, 24:25, 26:2, 27:2, 28:2, 28:1, 29:2, 29:18, 30:2, 31:2, 32:2, 32:18, 33:2, 33:7, 33:10, 33:12, 33:24, 33:30, 34:2, 36:1, 36:17, 37:3, 37:9, 37:11, 37:16, 38:2, 38:14, 39:1, 39:17, 40:4, 40:7, 43:10, 43:18, 47:6, Daniel 7:13, 8:17

 

[Grailhunter]

If he was created, if there was a time when he did not exist, he cannot, by definition, be God. You say only the Father existed in the OT, but both the OT and NT tell us otherwise. So, where did this Son come from?

I think it is above our pay grade to come up with a definition of God that He has to adjust to.

Where did His Son come from? LOL

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Ya know what begotten means….right?

“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created. The Son of Yahweh, not Yahweh.

Now just for the fun of it would you like to explain how a pre-existing God became sperm and fertilized Miriam’s egg so she would conceive? I just find humor with people that try to say it happened different than what the scriptures say it happened. Because the explanations can really get wild. Go for it!

 

[Grailhunter]

But you gave one view that wasn't Trinitarian at all; it was Modalism, which is unitarian. That's my point.

I am just telling it like it is according to the scriptures....I could careless about labels.

 

[Grailhunter]

But, there is and ever will be only one God. There are three divine persons, but only one God. There is no other option.

Three divine persons, one Godhead that could sit on three thrones.

 

[Grailhunter]

Psalm 2:7 is quoted multiple times in the New Testament, properly understood in a context that has nothing to do with Jesus being a warlord. I don't care what the nonunderstanding Pharisees said of Jesus. Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, and Hebrews 5:5 are about Jesus being the Son of God and it happened on a particular day. These verses demonstrate the Father is YHWH, the only God, and Jesus isn't.

I just saying read Psalm 2 instead of making a religion out of a single scripture.

 

[LeviR]

Yes. Absolutely. They kept calling a Jesus a man decades after he was taken to heaven. Does Paul statement sound like he is talking about Jesus as God?

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus was first son of God by the miraculous birth of a son of Abraham and David according to the flesh. Meaning he was of the same blood and flesh of all other man. And whatever the Bible says of that flesh is therefore true for Jesus.
He was then declared son of God by being born from the grave by the Spirit of holiness.
When it’s said “this day have I begotten you” that refers to his resurrection. You can see that clearly in Acts.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus was first son of God by the miraculous birth of a son of Abraham and David according to the flesh. Meaning he was of the same blood and flesh of all other man. And whatever the Bible says of that flesh is therefore true for Jesus.
He was then declared son of God by being born from the grave by the Spirit of holiness.
When it’s said “this day have I begotten you” that refers to his resurrection. You can see that clearly in Acts.

Well I do not agree that on…. this day I have begotten you means the resurrection.

Son of Abraham and David? How does that work….a threesome?

And if you can find the word miraculous in connection to this event that would be good. And Miriam conceived miraculously! No need for begotten or Son. Miracle baby?

For God so loved the world, that He Miraculously caused Miraim to conceive. I think that God did that to Elizabeth.

 

[LeviR]

What is your take on this verse?

Daniel 7
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.”

This is the appearing of our great God when the son of man is brought before Him by the clouds of heaven (the saints) whereby dominion over the kings of the earth will be granted him.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they(the saints) brought Him near before Him.
14Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.”