Understanding the Holy Spirit Baptism

[live2blive]

Repentance from sin is not "death to sin".
It is turn from sin...though a true repentance from sin would seem to be the death of sinning.
As for breaking patterns, the one break from normalcy I see is that Cornelius' water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins came after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

God did it that way to impress those fixated on patterns.
The six Jews who went to Cornelius' house with Peter were stunned that Gentiles could receive the same gift they had been given.
Patterns no longer exemplified the workings of God !
Eph 2 covers that break from normalcy better than I can.

No, the pattern of death, burial, resurrection was not broken.

Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

Cornelius realized that he was a sinner, i.e., spiritually dead, and wanted to come to God (repentance). 2.

Peter preached to him about Christ (Acts 10:34-43), i.e., immersed (baptized) him in the living water of the Gospel in the name of Christ (John 7:38,39).

Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why then Peter commended to baptize the Gentiles AFTER they received the Holy Spirit? Peter had the Holy Spirit, but he did not yet understand certain things and made mistakes. For example, he did not realize for the first few years that all kinds of food could be eaten, and that there was no difference between a Jew and Gentile for God (Acts 10:14,15). Peter was astonished when the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles without water baptism, because all Jews were baptized in water before receiving the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he right away commanded to baptize the Gentiles in water, because at that time people still thought that water baptism was something that God wanted them to do. Only later, as prophesied by the Messiah (John 14:26), the Holy Spirit reminded Peter of the Messiah's words that believers would be baptized not with water, but with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the pattern of death, burial, resurrection was not broken.
Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

Cornelius realized that he was a sinner, i.e., spiritually dead, and wanted to come to God (repentance). 2.

That is not repentance from sin.
It is merely self-condemnation.

Peter preached to him about Christ (Acts 10:34-43), i.e., immersed (baptized) him in the living water of the Gospel in the name of Christ (John 7:38,39).

All Peter did was preach.
God gives the Spirit to those who have both turned from sin (repented of sin), and been water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
That is the pattern that was broken, and that so stunned the Jews.

Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, he did...and then Peter water baptized him in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Why then Peter commended to baptize the Gentiles AFTER they received the Holy Spirit?

Peter water baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Peter had the Holy Spirit, but he did not yet understand certain things and made mistakes.

You are inferring that the Holy Spirit makes mistakes.
I can't agree.

For example, he did not realize for the first few years that all kinds of food could be eaten, and that there was no difference between a Jew and Gentile for God

Is not realizing something a 'mistake' ?
It is just lack of knowledge.
Besides, the apostles had initially been sent to preach only to the Israelites, so when a Gentile appeared on their screen, he went with the same old formula given on the day of Pentecost.
That formula is still in effect today.

(Acts 10:14,15). Peter was astonished when the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles without water baptism, because all Jews were baptized in water before receiving the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he right away commanded to baptize the Gentiles in water, because at that time people still thought that water baptism was something that God wanted them to do.

It is, as it is the way for our sins to be remitted by the application of Jesus' blood at our "immersion" into Him and His death.

Only later, as prophesied by the Messiah (John 14:26), the Holy Spirit reminded Peter of the Messiah's words that believers would be baptized not with water, but with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the gift of the Holy Ghost that Peter spoke of on the day of Pentecost.
"Do A and B, and you will get C."
A, Turn from sin.
B, Get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
C, God will give you His Spirit.

 

[Corinth77777]

The “born again” experience
is being baptized into Christ’s church by the Holy Spirit …
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In this experience, the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE the believer …
John 14:16-23, Rom. 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Gal. 4:6, 2 Tim. 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.

The “baptism with the Holy Spirit” experience
is being given an anointing by Jesus Christ (as prophesied by John the Baptist) …
Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33.
In this experience, the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer …
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:6.

Everyone knows when a person is born again, the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE the believer.
Now, let’s look at the 7 passages where the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer:

”Behold, I send the Promise of My Father UPON you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem
until you are endued with (spiritual) power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

”… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. But you shall
receive (spiritual) power when the Holy Spirit has come UPON you” (Acts 1:4-8)

“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled
the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues,
as of fire, and one sat UPON each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:1-4)

“Peter and John … prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He had fallen UPON none of them. They had only been baptized
in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received
the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands
the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this (spiritual) power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:14-19)

“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell UPON all those who heard
the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came
with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out ON the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.” (Acts 10:44-46)

“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell UPON them, as upon us at the beginning.
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same
gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ …” (Acts 11:15-17)

“And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came UPON them,
and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:6)

So, we see that the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs when the Holy Spirit
comes UPON a person. These 7 passages reveal that it is called “the Promise”
of the Father, and “the gift” of the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by such things as:
spiritual power, laying on of hands, filled with the Holy Spirit, tongues, and prophecy.

So, isn’t it obvious that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a different experience
than being born again? It is called “the second blessing”

Born-again believers are encouraged to seek this baptism of anointing and spiritual power!
If it is required …
remember the Persistent Widow of Luke 18:1-5, and the Ask-Seek-Knock of Matthew 7:7-8.

Yes, of cause it was Peter. Sorry for the mistake and thank you for correcting it.



Yes, this is what happened. But do you see the inconsistency with the words of Peter (the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter): "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". (Acts 2:38)?

How did the gentiles receive the gift of the Holy Ghost BEFORE they were baptized?

Let's try this on to see if it makes sense

Usually didn't the holyghost fall on those who heard, or believed the good news?

So I do wonder if by believing they already received the holy Spirit and it was the Holyghost that fell on them.

So I wonder when asked this question if it went like this: have you received the Holyghost sense you believed?

So definitely time for me to go back and read Acts to see if this is true.

Sense it is baptism the writer of this post is discussing..and baptism in my opinional view is to surround or immerse one in the presence of God, which definitely would give one a clean conscious; then wouldn't the Father, Son and Holyghost be there?

All the fathers were baptized under the cloud and in the red sea and drank from the Rock which was Jesus. The representation of those symbols seems to be the Spirit who leads, and the Rock which they drank from which was Christ.

Also thinking of another post where there are those who don't believe in a Trinity see 2. The Spirit of God being the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus resurrected in bodily form, the Holy Ghost. I think I better study that passage. Which is to baptize in the name of the Father, Son. And Holyghost.....Wondering if it might be and of the Holyghost

For seems like father plus son = Holyghost power. Hopefully after I read may God will bless me with understanding.

 

[live2blive]

That is not repentance from sin.
It is merely self-condemnation.


The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the gift of the Holy Ghost that Peter spoke of on the day of Pentecost.
"Do A and B, and you will get C."
A, Turn from sin.
B, Get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
C, God will give you His Spirit.

According to what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, this is the sequence of events happened with Cornelius:

C - God gave Holy Spirit
B - Were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins
A - Turned from sin.

Which is 180 degrees opposite to what God said trough Peter: "Do A and B, and you will get C."

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

The “born again” experience
is being baptized into Christ’s church by the Holy Spirit …
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In this experience, the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE the believer …
John 14:16-23, Rom. 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Gal. 4:6, 2 Tim. 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.

The “baptism with the Holy Spirit” experience
is being given an anointing by Jesus Christ (as prophesied by John the Baptist) …
Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33.
In this experience, the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer …
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:6.

Everyone knows when a person is born again, the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE the believer.
Now, let’s look at the 7 passages where the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer:

”Behold, I send the Promise of My Father UPON you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem
until you are endued with (spiritual) power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

”… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. But you shall
receive (spiritual) power when the Holy Spirit has come UPON you” (Acts 1:4-8)

“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled
the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues,
as of fire, and one sat UPON each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:1-4)

“Peter and John … prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He had fallen UPON none of them. They had only been baptized
in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received
the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands
the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this (spiritual) power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:14-19)

“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell UPON all those who heard
the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came
with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out ON the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.” (Acts 10:44-46)

“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell UPON them, as upon us at the beginning.
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same
gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ …” (Acts 11:15-17)

“And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came UPON them,
and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:6)

So, we see that the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs when the Holy Spirit
comes UPON a person. These 7 passages reveal that it is called “the Promise”
of the Father, and “the gift” of the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by such things as:
spiritual power, laying on of hands, filled with the Holy Spirit, tongues, and prophecy.

So, isn’t it obvious that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a different experience
than being born again? It is called “the second blessing”

Born-again believers are encouraged to seek this baptism of anointing and spiritual power!
If it is required …
remember the Persistent Widow of Luke 18:1-5, and the Ask-Seek-Knock of Matthew 7:7-8.

Born-again believers are baptized with the Holy Spirit, but not all of them have the spectacular gifts of the Spirit. Many have the gifts of speaking and explaining the Word of God. The lists of spiritual gifts in Romans 12, Ephesians 4, and 1 Corinthians 12 show that those churches had different mixtures of gifts; and Paul said that they should seek the gifts of preaching (prophesying) and teaching more than the spectacular gifts of speaking in tongues, healing, and interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 14). We are called to use whatever gifts God chooses to give us.

When I was a pastor, God gave me those most-desirable gifts of preaching and teaching, but when I retired and he called me to be an author, he changed my gift to creativity through writing.

 

[Dougcho]

Born-again believers are baptized with the Holy Spirit ...

Sorry, but you are greatly mistaken!
For one ... can't you see the vast difference
between receiving the Holy Spirit INSIDE vs UPON
... as clearly explained in the OP?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

It was not the definition of “repent”, but explanation. To repent, the people had to first admit that they were sinners and then turn away from sin. To sin means to be spiritually dead:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1).

In the Bible, to sin means to be self-centered. As Christians, we have to struggle against that self-centeredness with which we were born (Romans 7:18-25):
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
We must persistently pray for Jesus' victory over our sinful natures ("flesh").

 

[live2blive]

In the Bible, to sin means to be self-centered. As Christians, we have to struggle against that self-centeredness with which we were born (Romans 7:18-25):
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
We must persistently pray for Jesus' victory over our sinful natures ("flesh").

Many Christians think that all believers continue to sin based on Paul’s description of himself in Romans the 7th chapter. However, this comes from not “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2nd Timothy 2:15).

In Romans the 7th chapter, Paul is describing the state of his soul BEFORE he became a believer in Christ, BEFORE he received the Holy Spirit. In Romans the 7th chapter, Paul describes that a natural man (not a true believer in Christ) has two natures or laws. Before we receive the Holy Spirit, the Satanic Spirit or Mystery of Iniquity ("law of sin") rules our conscience and suppresses the "still small voice" of God everyone is born with, thereby causing the soul to sin (please self). These two natures or laws are at war with each other. This was a state of Paul’s heart under the Old Covenant, BEFORE he experienced the revelation of Christ and became converted or born again (Acts 9:1-18).

What happened after his conversion, Paul described in the beginning of the 8th chapter of Romans:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(Romans 8:1,2).

Notice "Now" in Romans the 8th chapter as contrasted to "then" in Romans the 7th chapter where Paul describes himself in the state of sin and condemnation under the Old Covenant. Now Paul is not under sin anymore! He confirms this transition in Romans 6:17,18:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When the Gospel is preached and a person receives the revelation of Christ, the Holy Spirit moves out the Satanic Spirit (which was shown by the Savior in the flesh casting out demons from men - Luke 8:7-39). The Holy Spirit frees this person from the law of sin, gives a new heart or God's Love, thereby making him obedient to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ (Ezekiel 36:26,27). The Holy Spirit illuminates the conscience or soul with understanding of God's purpose and His Love; thereby such a believer has a converted soul or is born again, and his desire becomes to please the Creator.

 

[Dougcho]

You boys are way off topic --- Please address
the baptism with the Holy Spirit experience
... compared to the born-again experience

 

[MisterE]

In Romans the 7th chapter, Paul is describing the state of his soul BEFORE he became a believer in Christ, BEFORE he received the Holy Spirit.

That is an impossible conclusion in the Greek text. Paul uses the Present Tense of EIMI, which always means the current (present) situation. there is no exception to that grammatical rule. Once again, the English Translation is of no help in solving this text.

 

[live2blive]

That is an impossible conclusion in the Greek text. Paul uses the Present Tense of EIMI, which always means the current (present) situation. there is no exception to that grammatical rule. Once again, the English Translation is of no help in solving this text.

Sorry that this is off the baptism topic, but the short answer is needed.

In Romans 7 Paul uses a rhetorical device, using 1st person for a 2nd person reference. Paul does the same in Gal 2:18 "If I build up again the things I have dismantled/deconstructed, then I show myself to be a transgressor." Paul is rebuking Peter here for doing exactly this kind of rebuilding which Paul would not do. In Rom 7 Paul is talking to Roman Jewish-Christians some of whom were still trapped under the law as Paul used to be. To use the 1st person to mitigate a rebuke to the hearers is common in many languages. It is sometimes called the "representative I", because the speaker uses himself as an example to represent the hearer. He is only referring to himself as a polite rhetorical device.

Question on Present Tense in Romans 7.14-25 - B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum

 

[Dougcho]

“If you don’t have the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
you are living in a weak and impoverished condition.”
(Smith Wigglesworth --- Bradford, England)

Smith was probably the greatest evangelist (worldwide)
since the original apostles in the NT.
He was involved in ALL kinds of healing miracles
(including raising people from the dead).
He said that ALL illness and sickness was caused by Satan!
(IMO, this was going a bit too far.)

 

[MisterE]

He was involved in ALL kinds of healing miracles
(including raising people from the dead).

That would certainly be a miracle since Apostle Paul was unable to heal at the end of his ministry. The miracles had ceased in the first century per Heb 2.3, 4. In this passage, the first generation performed the miracles, whereas the second generation observed the miracles perform by the first generation.

If you know Greek, here is an article that gives you the details.

https://bible.org/article/hebrews-23-4-and-sign-gifts

 

[Dougcho]

The miracles had ceased in the first century per Heb 2.3, 4. In this passage, the first generation performed the miracles,
whereas the second generation observed the miracles perform by the first generation.

I choose to believe the many thousands of testimonies worldwide
that Wigglesworth was indeed used in the healing of many thousands!
I think someone in the Gospels said, "Oh, Lord, help my unbelief!"

 

[MisterE]

I choose to believe the many thousands of testimonies worldwide
that Wigglesworth was indeed used in the healing of many thousands!
I think someone in the Gospels said, "Oh, Lord, help my unbelief!"

Then tell us what Heb 2.3, 4 means, go through the verses word by word.

 

[Dougcho]

Then tell us what Heb 2.3, 4 means, go through the verses word by word.

I suggest that you ask the Lord what these verses mean.

 

[MisterE]

I suggest that you ask the Lord what these verses mean.

I did that about 17 years ago. If you are unable to examine (you sound like a translation guy, no training in NT Greek, meaning all you can do is espouse other believers' views) the verse and explain it, how do you know if it contradicts your theology? Personally, I recommend you not respond to this, because I can explain it fully. And you wont like it.

For you, I think it would be better to live in ignorance.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is an impossible conclusion in the Greek text. Paul uses the Present Tense of EIMI, which always means the current (present) situation. there is no exception to that grammatical rule. Once again, the English Translation is of no help in solving this text.

Ever studied the past-historical tense ?
Using it, one can speak from the perspective of still being in the past, while being in the present.
Google says..."The past historic tense is a verb tense used in written narrative to describe completed actions that are detached from the present:
That is how Paul is narrating a past condition, as if he were still there.

 

[MisterE]

Google says..."The past historic tense is a verb tense used in written narrative to describe completed actions that are detached from the present:
That is how Paul is narrating a past condition, as if he were still there.

The problem with printing what you did in your post is that there is such a thing called the Historic Present. But, more importantly there is no example of the Greek verb EIMI ever being used as a Historic Present. There is no known use of EIMI as a Historic Present. If one takes this as a Historic Present, it would be the only known one in Greek literature. So, the burden of proof is on the one who takes this EIMI as a Historic Present.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The problem with printing what you did in your post is that there is such a thing called the Historic Present.

That there is no problem.

But, more importantly there is no example of the Greek verb EIMI ever being used as a Historic Present. There is no known use of EIMI as a Historic Present. If one takes this as a Historic Present, it would be the only known one in Greek literature. So, the burden of proof is on the one who takes this EIMI as a Historic Present.

Romans 7 is our example.
Doesn't Paul refer to the past in verse 5 ?
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
And again refers to the past in verse 18 ?
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
He was writing about how he felt while still in the flesh and under the Law, in the past, in between verses 5 and 24.
Your inference is that Paul is still in the flesh and under the Law.
But he wasn't, when he narrated his past in the flesh and under the Law, in Rom 7.