Understanding the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13)

[WIP]

I don't understand your question relative to my comment.

Jesus Christ is the right things. I thought that was what Grace is all about?

Bingo. That's my point. If you are a diabetic about to go into a coma and believed I held a syringe of insulin that could save you if you took it, but in reality it was saline, would taking the shot save you?

I guess I'm not following the train of thought on this exchange.

 

[chessman]

The parable of the sower is a reference to the Gospel Message, not the mysteries of the kingdom.

Is there any Scripture to support your claim

Jesus says otherwise here:

Matthew 13:18-19, 23 (NASB) “Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it,​

How can an unbeliever understand the mysteries of the kingdom?

They can't without understanding being granted to them (and notice how my claim is supported with Jesus' words.

Matthew 13:11 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.​

Hear the following words of Jesus then answer a question about them from your understanding of the parable of the sower:

Matthew 13:18-19, 23 (NASB) “Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. ... And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”
​

Which man was the one in the parable that Jesus said understands the word?

 

[chessman]

I guess I'm not following the train of thought on this exchange.

Let me clarify then:

Jesus Christ is the right things.

Correct.

So if someone believes in another Jesus (say the Jesus spoken of in the Quarn, Isa ibn Maryam) they are not saved, right?

 

[JLB]

Is there any Scripture to support your claim

Jesus says otherwise here:

Matthew 13:18-19, 23 (NASB) “Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it,

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. Matthew 13:18

• The word of the kingdom is a reference to the Gospel Message.

• The Gospel Message is the only word by which men can be saved.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12


The mysteries of the kingdom is for believers who are disciples, who will one day make disciples teaching them everything Jesus taught.

The Gospel Message is what is preached to unbelievers, so that they will believe and be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

They can't without understanding being granted to them (and notice how my claim is supported with Jesus' words.

Here are the words of Jesus you quoted -

Matthew 13:11 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

• Unbelievers are not granted understanding to know the mysteries of the kingdom, only believers who have become disciples.
• Unbelievers are not granted understanding, by God to believe the Gospel.

You are wanting to try and "slip in" the idea that God must grant an unbeliever "understanding" in order for him to believe, so that you can convey the idea that only "predestined ones" are able to believe and be saved, while God does not give understanding to other unbelievers, because they are not predestined to salvation.

The way to conceivably do this, you must "mix together" the idea of the mysteries of the kingdom, being the same as the Gospel, so that you can show it is only by God choosing to give some understanding, [the "predestined ones"], while ignoring the others whom He has not chosen to give understanding to.

• This is the error of Calvinism.

The only way an unbeliever can be saved, is by believing the Gospel.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12



JLB

 

[JLB]

Which man was the one in the parable that Jesus said understands the word?

The ones with good ground, which represents one, that "holds fast" to the word.

15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:15

It is those who continue to believe, which means they continue to remain or abide in Him, so that they produce fruit.


The condition to being saved: Believing = Unshakable commitment.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

How can an unbeliever understand the mysteries of the kingdom?



JLB

Hi JLB

I don't think an unbeliever can understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14

It takes someone who can relate to God, in whatever small measure, to understand the things of God.

(I'm not sure anymore how we got to mentioning the Kingdom)

 

[JLB]

I don't think an unbeliever can understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14

I don't either, and neither does Jesus.

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. Matthew 13;11


"them" = unbelievers.



JLB

 

[JLB]

(I'm not sure anymore how we got to mentioning the Kingdom)

I will share with you why.

It is a argument of those who teach predestination, from the perspective of Calvinism.

Predestination to them means predestined to be saved, or predestined to go to hell.

Which boils down to man has no freewill.

I mentioned it in my post # 105 -


... the idea that God must grant an unbeliever "understanding" in order for him to believe, so that you can convey the idea that only "predestined ones" are able to believe and be saved, while God does not give understanding to other unbelievers, because they are not predestined to salvation.


The way to conceivably do this, you must "mix together" the idea of the mysteries of the kingdom, being the same as the Gospel, so that you can show it is only by God choosing to give some understanding, [the "predestined ones"], while ignoring the others whom He has not chosen to give understanding to.

• This is the error of Calvinism.

The only way an unbeliever can be saved, is by believing the Gospel.


They must choose.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I'm not sure anymore how we got to mentioning the Kingdom

Because Jesus explained that the parable was about hearing the mysteries of the kingdom and some not understanding it and some being granted understanding of it, that's why.

Matthew 13:11 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. ​

Matthew 13:18-19 (NASB) “Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.​

 

[JLB]

Because Jesus explained that the parable was about hearing the mysteries of the kingdom and some not understanding it and some being granted understanding of it, that's why.

Jesus explained that the mysteries of the kingdom were not for unbelievers.

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. Matthew 13:11

"them" = unbelievers.

The Gospel is for unbelievers.
The Mysteries of the Kingdom are not for unbelievers.


Hopefully you understand this.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Jesus explained that the parable was about hearing the mysteries of the kingdom and some not understanding it and some being granted understanding of it, that's why.

Matthew 13:11 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. ​

Matthew 13:18-19 (NASB) “Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.​

Chessman,
Is the Word of the Kingdom the same as the Kingdom of God?
No.
The Word of the Kingdom is explaining something to people who would want to know about it.

The Kingdom of God is that Kingdom which Jesus came to earth to establish. We believers are members of the Kingdom of God. We join it when we become born from above, or born again, or when we receive the Holy Spirit which puts us in contact with God's spirit and thoughts. We become members of His "home", here on earth, and then it continues on into eternity after death - if we hold fast to our faith in Him.
John 3:3

Only those born from above can see the Kingdom of God.
Unbelievers are oblivious to it.


.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, the parable of the sower, is a teaching to His disciples, as to the 4 different sets of unbelievers and the condition of their heart.


As a side note to this discussion, I would like to ask you a question:

If you were the Lord, and you had twelve men, who had the responsibility of taking the Gospel to the world, and making disciples in which to do this monumental task, what type of people would you instruct them to invest the little time they had, to accomplish this task among so many that wanted to kill them?

To me the decision is simple.

To me, the parable of the sower is a set of instructions, as to where to invest their precious lives, so as to receive the greatest return on their investment.

In other words, the Gospel is to be preached to all people, but when it comes to making disciples, then they should choose their twelve from those who will become fruitful, [as the fourth group indicates], so that the purpose of being fruitful and multiplying would continue.

If they understood this, then they would understand all the parables.


JLB

Yes. The perfect example of someone who would be fruitful is the apostle Paul.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

Yes. The perfect example of someone who would be fruitful is the apostle Paul.

iakov the fool

Yes sir.

 

[GodsGrace]

P.S.
chessman

I will share with you why.

It is a argument of those who teach predestination, from the perspective of Calvinism.

Predestination to them means predestined to be saved, or predestined to go to hell.

Which boils down to man has no freewill.

I mentioned it in my post # 105 -


... the idea that God must grant an unbeliever "understanding" in order for him to believe, so that you can convey the idea that only "predestined ones" are able to believe and be saved, while God does not give understanding to other unbelievers, because they are not predestined to salvation.


The way to conceivably do this, you must "mix together" the idea of the mysteries of the kingdom, being the same as the Gospel, so that you can show it is only by God choosing to give some understanding, [the "predestined ones"], while ignoring the others whom He has not chosen to give understanding to.

• This is the error of Calvinism.

The only way an unbeliever can be saved, is by believing the Gospel.


They must choose.



JLB

I see.

It also boils down to a God I cannot find in the Bible I'm reading.

One who Purposefully creates some persons to go to heaven and some persons to go to hell.
They tell me this has to do with His sovereignty
I sure couldn't love this god.
That's kind of like abortion.

 

[JLB]

P.S.
chessman

I see.

It also boils down to a God I cannot find in the Bible I'm reading.

One who Purposefully creates some persons to go to heaven and some persons to go to hell.
They tell me this has to do with His sovereignty
I sure couldn't love this god.
That's kind of like abortion.

Yes ma'am. :nod


JLB

 

[chessman]

The word of the kingdom is a reference to the Gospel Message.

True.
The truth is, Jesus said to His disciples (students):

Matthew 13:11, 23 (NASB) Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. ...
And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”​

Paul was taught (discipled) to say:

1 Corinthians 1:18 (NASB) For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NASB) And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

The Gospel Message is the only word by which men can be saved

True! True now, true then (in the parable) and always will be true!

The statement; "The Gospel Message is the only word by which men can be saved" is proven true by the fact that the good soil (man) example was the one that understood the word and bore fruit to prove it. None of the others understood the word (The Gospel message).

That's my point!

The only way an unbeliever can be saved, is by believing the Gospel.

True again. Believing in something else does not save. Nor does it bear any fruit.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NASB) And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. ​

Matthew 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. ​

 

[chessman]

You are wanting to try and "slip in" the idea that God must grant an unbeliever "understanding" in order for him to believe

Did Jesus 'slip in' His answer, in your opinion?

Matthew 13:10-11 (NASB) And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.​

so that you can convey the idea that only "predestined ones" are able to believe and be saved, while God does not give understanding to other unbelievers, because they are not predestined to salvation.

Wrong. This is why there are rules against posting what other people believe about the Text. It leads to mistakes and misunderstandings.

 

[JLB]

Did Jesus 'slip in' His answer, in your opinion?

Matthew 13:10-11 (NASB) And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Jesus words are plain and clear.

Matthew 13:11

• it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them it has not been given.

• The mysteries of the Kingdom was for the disciples to understand:

• Jesus plainly said that to "them" [unbelievers] it has not been granted?

"It has not been granted" = Not granted.

Unbelievers are not granted to understand the mysteries of the kingdom.

The idea of God granting some unbelievers, the ability to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom, while disregarding the others, is not found in the bible.


Mysteries of the Kingdom is Not for unbelievers

On the other hand, the Gospel Message is for unbelievers.

Gospel of the Kingdom = For Unbelievers. - Given to unbelievers for the opportunity to choose to believe or not.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Wrong. This is why there are rules against posting what other people believe about the Text. It leads to mistakes and misunderstandings.

So far you have written what you believe about the text:

Here is your questions with your answers from post number 74,75,76.

Chessman said:
Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them?

Here are my answers and why:
For those that are good soil that hears the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and indeed bears fruit:
1. Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them? Yes.
"And others [seed] fell on the good soil", v8

The parable of the sower never mentions the mysteries of the kingdom.
The parable of the sower mentions the message or word of the kingdom: The Gospel of the kingdom.


This discussion began with your question and answer, in which you attempted to mix together the phrase "mysteries of the kingdom", as being the Gospel Message or Message of the Kingdom.

Here is your language that you interjected as if it were what the scripture says.

• Chessman said: For those that are good soil that hears the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and indeed bears fruit:

Now you ask and answer the question, using your own phrase. [mysteries of the kingdom]

• Chessman said: Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them? Yes.

I answered this question as no, and stated what was sowed was the Gospel Message, not the mysteries of the Kingdom.

Here is my answer :

JLB said
1.] No, the parable does not start with sowing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them.

On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Matthew 13:1-4

The sower sowed the Gospel of the Kingdom into their hearts.

At this point you tried to convince me and everyone else that the "seed" that was "sown" was the mysteries of the kingdom.

You needed to be able to "tie together" the idea "they must be granted understanding" with being saved and bearing fruit.
To do this, you must convince us the Gospel Message is the mysteries of the kingdom.

So you can interject that "they must be granted understanding" so they can believe, which leads to the idea that God must choose to grant some understanding while not granting understanding to others.

Hear is your question that does this:

Chessman said:
4. Does them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven lead to them believing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven?
5. Does them believing lead to their salvation?
6. Does their salvation result in their bearing fruit (proof of being His disciple, John 15:8)?

You were convincing us that the process began with God "granting to them the understanding". ["them" being the unbelievers who heard the Gospel.]

This is how I interpret your post, because of the things, you yourself say, which begins with the Gospel being replaced with the mysteries of the kingdom.



JLB