Understanding the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13)

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry you do not understand Salvation is not of man believing, but having faith in what they believe, not an emotional or fleshy response to the word.
I speak by experiencing rebirth. From the time as far back as I remember, I knew of God, even before going to Church. But I was never saved until i reach the age of reasoning. (age 16 for me). As a child, I went to the alter to accept Christ many times. It was an emotional response. But when the Lord called me, He drew me up to the alter and I was baptized
immediately. The Holy Spirit literally cleansed me of the sins I carried. I literally felt as if I would float up as the weight of sin was lifted. As a young adult, I backslid many times and ignored my savior, but He never left me, even when I wandered away. I lost fellowship, but never Salvation! His Spirit (in me) has guaranteed my eternal state as He promised (God can not lie). The first seed sown was received in his heart (John 13:19).The second seed sown was received with joy (John 13:20) Neither one had faith!

I'm not going to debate this forever.
The first could be discussed.
I could believe in my heart that I'm going to Florence this afternoon.
That doesn't mean I'm going.

The second cannot be debated. If I receive a message with JOY, it means that I understood the message. It's clear from Mathew 13:20 that the word was understood. If I have joy, it means I understand what I have.
But the person did not have a firm root and it was only TEMPORARY.

If something is TEMPORARY it means I had it, but then lost it.
If I temporarily had a car
it means I had a car for A WHILE and then didn't have it anymore.

Mathew 13:21b
The person FALLS AWAY.
WHAT DOES HE FALL AWAY FROM?
What is there to fall away from if he never had salvation??

And, DS, don't be sorry for what I don't understand since you don't know what I understand or do not understand.
This is the second time you've questioned my understanding of salvation.

THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR.
We're here to discuss the thread

 

[WIP]

In your example we know from experience that drinking wine in excess can certainly lead to drunkenness. Just as we know from experience that "believing" can certainly lead to salvation. BUT, you better believe the right things. Believing the wrong things is a wide road.

Is that not where faith and trust and belief on Him who saves enters the picture?

Yes, unless you understood the wine was non-alcoholic.

The definition of a wine is an alcoholic drink made from the fementation of grape juice. In recent times we create drinks that are labeled non-alcholic wine or beer but only because it imitates the real thing without fementation. Not too unlike how we promote margarine as a butter substitute. No matte how much we try, margarine is not butter. Reality is a non-alcoholic wine or beer is not a wine or beer it is something different. The label doesn't make it so.

 

[JLB]

That's an excellent point. The conjunction "and" joins two verbs (two different but related actions) together.

I cooked and ate fish last night.
Cooking does not equal eating.

If you don't understand how to cook, you're not eating properly cooked fish.

The verse says lest they believe and are saved.

• Believing is the one condition of the heart that results in salvation being both conceived and brought to fruition

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


The one necessary thing those who become fruitful understand, is that believing is necessary for salvation.

• If you believe that believing is not necessary for salvation, then please share why.

• If you believe that salvation requires more than believing, then please share what it is + believing that must be done.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not going to debate this forever.
The first could be discussed.
I could believe in my heart that I'm going to Florence this afternoon.
That doesn't mean I'm going.

The second cannot be debated. If I receive a message with JOY, it means that I understood the message. It's clear from Mathew 13:20 that the word was understood. If I have joy, it means I understand what I have.
But the person did not have a firm root and it was only TEMPORARY.

If something is TEMPORARY it means I had it, but then lost it.
If I temporarily had a car
it means I had a car for A WHILE and then didn't have it anymore.

Mathew 13:21b
The person FALLS AWAY.
WHAT DOES HE FALL AWAY FROM?
What is there to fall away from if he never had salvation??

And, DS, don't be sorry for what I don't understand since you don't know what I understand or do not understand.
This is the second time you've questioned my understanding of salvation.

THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR.
We're here to discuss the thread

Very Clear.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, they are not. But you can not use that as a basis for having been saved and losing salvation.

Of course I can, because believing is the one necessary thing required for Salvation.

Those who understand this, understand the one vital thing required, in that believing is and continues to be required for salvation.


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

I'm not going to debate this forever.
The first could be discussed.
I could believe in my heart that I'm going to Florence this afternoon.
That doesn't mean I'm going.

The second cannot be debated. If I receive a message with JOY, it means that I understood the message. It's clear from Mathew 13:20 that the word was understood. If I have joy, it means I understand what I have.
But the person did not have a firm root and it was only TEMPORARY.

If something is TEMPORARY it means I had it, but then lost it.
If I temporarily had a car
it means I had a car for A WHILE and then didn't have it anymore.

Mathew 13:21b
The person FALLS AWAY.
WHAT DOES HE FALL AWAY FROM?
What is there to fall away from if he never had salvation??

And, DS, don't be sorry for what I don't understand since you don't know what I understand or do not understand.
This is the second time you've questioned my understanding of salvation.

THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR.
We're here to discuss the thread

Do not understand the jist of of your reply? Carnal logic does not fit Spiritual birth. Here is where I stand. (John 10: 25-30) and (John 11:21-26) As my calling is teacher / pastor by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians chapter 12). I'am required to be faithful and to contend for the faith.(1 Cor. 1:17-2:16) I do not suppose about Scripture, but speak of Spiritual things I know. Not my own wisdom, but Christ in me. That makes people angry that I can say that, but every born again can witness to that union by regeneration. Much to teach, but little to receive it in this age. Every visible church has their own gospel unknown to Christ. Contend for the faith.

 

[JLB]

Do not understand the jist of of your reply? Carnal logic does not fit Spiritual birth.

She plainly presented things that concern understanding, which those in the 4 group clearly had, in order to become fruitful.

If understanding doesn't involve some degree of logic to come to a conclusion, then what does?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Do not understand the jist of of your reply? Carnal logic does not fit Spiritual birth. Here is where I stand. (John 10: 25-30) and (John 11:21-26) As my calling is teacher / pastor by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians chapter 12). I'am required to be faithful and to contend for the faith.(1 Cor. 1:17-2:16) I do not suppose about Scripture, but speak of Spiritual things I know. Not my own wisdom, but Christ in me. That makes people angry that I can say that, but every born again can witness to that union by regeneration. Much to teach, but little to receive it in this age. Every visible church has their own gospel unknown to Christ. Contend for the faith.

Please see post no. 67.
I concur.

 

[GodsGrace]

She plainly presented things that concern understanding, which those in the 4 group clearly had, in order to become fruitful.

If understanding doesn't involve some degree of logic to come to a conclusion, then what does?



JLB

Absolutely.
:nod

 

[atpollard]

The first question is: Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer,?
The second is like it: Are those who believe for a while, then no longer believe still saved.

Now that I have a better understanding of your view, let's address these questions.

First the actual verses about the rocky soil (where we left off):
Matthew 13:20-21 "The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." [NIV]

Mark 4:16-17 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. [NKJV]

Luke 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." [NKJV]

A question zero is: Was the person who believed, ever saved in the first place?
For the rocky soil, what we KNOW for sure is they:
1. hears the word and at once receives it with joy; last only a short time (Matthew)
2. hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; endure only for a time; immediately they stumble (Mark)
3. receive the word with joy; believe for a while; fall away (Luke)

For salvation, BELIEF is essential ... and they have "A" belief. They heard the word, received "it" and believed "it". Did they believe in "it" (the word they heard) or did they believe "in Him" (John 3:16)? You make a strong case for saved being more than belief, but a need to respond to the call for repentance. Did they turn from the world to God when they received the word for a while? When they believed the word for a while?

I don't think we can know with certainty from the information given in the Parable. I think we have to acknowledge at least the possibility of some doubt that the belief of the seed on the rock yielded an emotional response, but never any salvation.

They MAY have believed in Him and repented and been SAVED (question zero), in which case:
Q1. Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer?
A. No.
Q2. Are those who believe for a while, then no longer believe still saved.
A. No.

They MAY have NEVER believed in Him OR repented and were never SAVED (question zero), in which case:
Q1. Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer?
A. Believing does not count unless you believe in Him ... they had a dead faith that could not save and were never a "true believer".
Q2. Are those who believe for a while, then no longer believe still saved.
A. Not applicable to the never saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now that I have a better understanding of your view, let's address these questions.

First the actual verses about the rocky soil (where we left off):
Matthew 13:20-21 "The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." [NIV]

Mark 4:16-17 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. [NKJV]

Luke 8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." [NKJV]

A question zero is: Was the person who believed, ever saved in the first place?
For the rocky soil, what we KNOW for sure is they:
1. hears the word and at once receives it with joy; last only a short time (Matthew)
2. hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; endure only for a time; immediately they stumble (Mark)
3. receive the word with joy; believe for a while; fall away (Luke)

For salvation, BELIEF is essential ... and they have "A" belief. They heard the word, received "it" and believed "it". Did they believe in "it" (the word they heard) or did they believe "in Him" (John 3:16)? You make a strong case for saved being more than belief, but a need to respond to the call for repentance. Did they turn from the world to God when they received the word for a while? When they believed the word for a while?

I don't think we can know with certainty from the information given in the Parable. I think we have to acknowledge at least the possibility of some doubt that the belief of the seed on the rock yielded an emotional response, but never any salvation.

They MAY have believed in Him and repented and been SAVED (question zero), in which case:
Q1. Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer?
A. No.
Q2. Are those who believe for a while, then no longer believe still saved.
A. No.

They MAY have NEVER believed in Him OR repented and were never SAVED (question zero), in which case:
Q1. Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer?
A. Believing does not count unless you believe in Him ... they had a dead faith that could not save and were never a "true believer".
Q2. Are those who believe for a while, then no longer believe still saved.
A. Not applicable to the never saved.

Atpollard,
I defer to JLB, however I would just like to say the following:

At the time that Jesus preached and walked this earth, there was not a concept of believing in Him the way the concept exists today.

As I tried to explain here or on that sister thread... believing in Him meant doing what He said. Not the believing in Him like when one answers an altar call. This is a new phenomenon and did not exist in N.T. times.

 

[atpollard]

Atpollard,
I defer to JLB, however I would just like to say the following:

At the time that Jesus preached and walked this earth, there was not a concept of believing in Him the way the concept exists today.

As I tried to explain here or on that sister thread... believing in Him meant doing what He said. Not the believing in Him like when one answers an altar call. This is a new phenomenon and did not exist in N.T. times.

I agree with that. I also remember all the people who followed Jesus around that Jesus accused of just wanting a free lunch. They clearly heard Jesus words and believed SOMETHING. They also clearly left when Jesus' teaching got hard and moved beyond "you are blessed and here is a free meal". I have a hard time imagining THEM as being saved for a while and then later lost. They really seem more like the 'dead faith' that James warned me about (which James said could not save).

Thus my reluctance to read the Parable and say either that the seed among the weeds was never saved, or the seed among the weeds was obviously saved. I see neither option as "obvious". I see both as a possibility. I have opinions about which is more likely, but personal opinion is a bad yardstick for judging absolute truths of God. Some people use this parable to PROVE a point one way or the other. That requires a very good understanding of the parable itself. From all angles (IMHO).

 

[Douglas Summers]

She plainly presented things that concern understanding, which those in the 4 group clearly had, in order to become fruitful.

If understanding doesn't involve some degree of logic to come to a conclusion, then what does?



JLB

The Scriptural logic of man has produced a horrid multitude of false doctrines and religions and even wars. All in the name of God!. That is the conclusion of the logic of man and usurping of Christ's authority.
Scriptures says this about mans wisdom. (1 Cor. 2:1-16) Please study the Scriptures and reply.

 

[chessman]

Understanding the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13)

Believing is where we start,

Would you or anyone else that has studied this parable linked below, like to answer these simple questions for each man within this parable? And provide reasoning for your answers and/or discussion/questions for my answers:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13:3-23&version=NASB

Matthew 13:3-23 (NASB) 3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; ... the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, ...19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom ... 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit ...”​

1. Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them?
2. Does speaking lead to them hearing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven?
3. Does them hearing lead to them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven?
4. Does them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven lead to them believing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven?
5. Does them believing lead to their salvation?
6. Does their salvation result in their bearing fruit (proof of being His disciple, John 15:8)?

 

[chessman]

Here are my answers and why:
For those that are good soil that hears the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and indeed bears fruit:

1. Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them? Yes.

"And others [seed] fell on the good soil", v8​

2. Does speaking lead to them hearing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? Yes.

23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”​

3. Does them hearing lead to them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? Yes.

11 "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven", ...
23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”​

4. Does them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven lead to them believing? Yes.

"6 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."​

5. Does them believing lead to their salvation? Yes

"6 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."
12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance;
15 And I would heal them.​

6. Does their salvation result in their bearing fruit (proof of being His disciple, John 15:8)? Yes.

23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”​

 

[chessman]

For those "beside the road" that hears the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and did not bear fruit:

1. Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them? Yes

4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up​

2. Does speaking lead to them hearing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? Yes (kind of)

9 He who has ears, let him hear.
15 With their ears they scarcely hear,
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, ...​

3. Does them scarcely hearing lead to them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? No. Definitely not.

11 Jesus answered them, To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
15 You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;​

4. n/a (see #3 and 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.)
5. n/a (see #3 and 4)
6. n/a (see #3, 4 and 5)​

For the "rocky places" that the seed fell on and did not bear fruit:

1. Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them? Yes.

20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, ...​

2. Does speaking lead to them hearing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? Yes.

20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word ...​

3. Does them hearing lead to them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? No. Definitely not.

20-21The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
11 Jesus answered them, ... but to them it has not been granted.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
15 You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;​

4. n/a (see #3 and 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.)
5. n/a (see #3 and 4)
6. n/a (see #3, 4 and 5)
​

For the "thorns" that the seed fell on and did not bear fruit:

1. Does the parable start with speaking (sowing) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven upon them? Yes.

22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, ...​

2. Does speaking lead to them hearing the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? Yes

22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, ...​

3. Does them hearing lead to them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? No. Definitely not.

22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful
11 Jesus answered them, ... but to them it has not been granted.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
15 You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;​

4. n/a (see #3 and 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.)
5. n/a (see #3 and 4)
6. n/a (see #3, 4 and 5)​

 

[atpollard]

3. Does them hearing lead to them understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? No. Definitely not.
20-21The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
11 Jesus answered them, ... but to them it has not been granted.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
15 You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;

First, That was fantastic!

Unfortunately I need to push back a little on this one and ask for some clarification.
You ask if hearing leads to understanding and answer "No. Definitely not."
Matthew 13:20-21 says he "immediately receives it with joy" and that it is "temporary" (which in Luke 8:13 is "believe for a while").
How can you be so certain that it is "definitely" no? What clearly indicates that receiving with temporary joy was not "understanding"?

Is it because they did not bear fruit? (like the good soil)

 

[GodsGrace]

The Scriptural logic of man has produced a horrid multitude of false doctrines and religions and even wars. All in the name of God!. That is the conclusion of the logic of man and usurping of Christ's authority.
Scriptures says this about mans wisdom. (1 Cor. 2:1-16) Please study the Scriptures and reply.

DS
We're not doing a study of 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 on this thread.

1. Your posts are very degrading. Are you the only person on this forum who actually understands the bible and the rest of us have no logic and require study of the passages you quote since we must surely not know what they mean.

2. I send atheists to 1 Corinthians 2:14
Who here is an atheist?

3. Please tell us who is usurping Christ's authority??

If you'll notice in 1 Co 2:1 Paul is saying that he did not have superiority of speech or of wisdom.

YOU apparently, have both. So does 1 Co 2:14 not also apply to you since your understanding of scripture leaves much to be desired??

Our faith does not rest on the wisdom of men but on the power of God.
1 Co 2:5
So do only YOU have the wisdom of men?? Can you not speak to us because we are so immature?? 1 Co 2:6

1 Co 2:12
WE have received the spirit of God. We know the things freely given to us by God.
I can safely assume that although I do not agree with small nuances of some here, and some big beliefs of some here, I can say that we all love the Lord and are doing our best to follow Him and to help each other to understand Him and His ways.

I'm sorry if you don't see this.

 

[GodsGrace]

First, That was fantastic!

Unfortunately I need to push back a little on this one and ask for some clarification.
You ask if hearing leads to understanding and answer "No. Definitely not."
Matthew 13:20-21 says he "immediately receives it with joy" and that it is "temporary" (which in Luke 8:13 is "believe for a while").
How can you be so certain that it is "definitely" no? What clearly indicates that receiving with temporary joy was not "understanding"?

Is it because they did not bear fruit? (like the good soil)

You're right.
Some hear and understand.
Some hear and do not understand.

Mathew 13:19 is saying that when one DOES NOT understand the word, satan takes away what little has been understood, or whatever has been understood.
"for to whoever has to him more will be given"
"whoever does NOT have even what he has shall be taken away.
Mathew 13:12

Jesus is requiring that some effort be made to understand. If we want to see, we will see - if we want to hear, we will hear. We cannot be dull, we must be alert to the danger of not knowing God. We must make the effort to know what He is saying to us and desires of us.

And re bearing fruit... Yes. That is surely a sign of salvation.

Everyone could do works. Even the unsaved. However, if one has a transformation in his life and does good works he did not do before, there is a good chance he has come to know God.

I say "a good chance" because it's not up to us to decide who is saved and who isn't.

 

[atpollard]

I say "a good chance" because it's not up to us to decide who is saved and who isn't.

:amen