Bible Study Understanding this verse

[Christ_empowered]

jumping in here awfully late, but...

I vaguely remember reading some commentary on this out of a respectable looking tome. the take on it in that book is to "hate" means to reject, especially (in that context) reject in favor of Jesus.

makes sense to me, even now, but...I have -0- actual background in theology, the various languages, etc., so...there's that.

 

[Fastfredy0]

makes sense to me, even now, but...I have -0- actual background in theology, the various languages, etc., so...there's that.

Here, I will teach you Greek 101
1) go to https://netbible.org
2) Select 'book' and 'chapter' (see left side menu of diagram below that currently says Luke 14)
3) Scroll down to verse 26 on left hand side
4) Click on "GREEK" on right side (see diagram)
5) Scroll down to verse 26 on the right side
6) Move cursor along Greek words on right side of diagram. As you do the English words on the left side will light up. Once the word you are interested in (HATE in this case), that word lights up the English word. The definition(s) of that word will appear on the bottom of the right side (see diagram).
You now know Greek (well, you are closer and you can impress your friends *giggle*)

Aside: Greek 102 ... Next, I pasted the Greek word MESEI (bottom right of diagram) into a google search and got more info:
Frequency in New Testament: 40
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
v-1d(2a)
Gloss:
to hate; (pass.) to be hated, detestable
Definition:
to hate, regard with ill-will, Mt. 5:43, 44; 10:22; to detest, abhor, Jn. 3:20; Rom. 7:15; in NT to regard with less affection, love less, esteem less, Mt. 6:24; Lk. 14:26






The web site also let's you see a commentary and various other bible translations, etc.

 

[Quantrill]

All being just your opinion and your interpretation on the English word hate.

The word hate in Luke 14:26 does not carry the same definition of the English word hate as it does in the Greek using the word Miseo meaning to regard with less affection than, love less. That's the problem relying solely on a translation and ignoring the context when compared to other verses like Jesus telling us to honor your father and mother for example. Those who tried to hinder Jesus were the ones that were closer to Him in whom He loved as they had no Spiritual understanding yet of Christ ministry here on earth.

Thanks for your opinion.

Quantrill

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Another way of looking at it is self-denial.
Galatians 5:24; "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

And again, self-sacrifice.
Matthew 16:25; "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it."

 

[Quantrill]

You can take a horse to water but you can make him drink. I asked Quantrill what his definition of HATE was. His answer was "hate means hate". This suggest he may not want to go to the Greek.

Aside: I got the same result as you did for the definition of HATE ...
Definition:
to hate, regard with ill-will, Mt. 5:43, 44; 10:22; to detest, abhor, Jn. 3:20; Rom. 7:15; in NT to regard with less affection, love less, esteem less, Mt. 6:24; Lk. 14:26 https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/miseo

Aside: I have to admit that the word HATE in Luke 14:26 could mean 'detest' or 'love less'. How the site determined 'hate' in Luke 14:26 is 'love less' and not 'detest' is a mystery to me. I assume they used other scripture and came to the conclusion the 'love less' was consistent with other texts.
(now one just needs to define 'love' .. :yes )

You assumed because that is what you wanted to believe.

Get your Strongs or whatever you want to use to compare verses which use the same Greek word for hate as (Luke 14:26) does. Strongs Greek reference is 3404. And I quote, "from a prim. ....(hatred);to detest (espec. to persecute); by extens. to love less:-hateful"

The primary definition is to hate. Just like I told you, hate means hate. You opted for the less offending definition, which most do. It makes them feel better.

Why don't you compare other Scriptures how the same word is used instead of just assuming the site did it for you.

(Matt. 6:24) "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other..."

(Matt. 5:44) "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

(John 7:7) "The world cannot hate you: but me it hateth...."

(John 15:23) "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."

These are just a few of many. But go ahead and make them say it just means to love less. Of course we know the world loved Jesus, that is why the put Him on the Cross. The just didn't love Him enough.

As I said, hate means hate.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Get your Strongs or whatever you want to use to compare verses which use the same Greek word for hate as (Luke 14:26) does. Strongs Greek reference is 3404. And I quote, "from a prim. ....(hatred);to detest (espec. to persecute); by extens. to love less:-hateful"

The primary definition is to hate. Just like I told you, hate means hate. You opted for the less offending definition, which most do. It makes them feel better.

You are contradicting yourself per what you posted as love less is in that Greek definition you posted. Love less does not mean to detest, abhor someone, it just means per Luke 14:26 to direct your love more towards Christ giving Him first place over those you love like your own family. Like Jesus said to His mother that she should have known He had to be about His Fathers business as He did not rebuke her, but showed her by He being missing and being found in the Temple He had to be about what God gave to Him to do and where to be at that moment.

Did Mary or any of the disciples understand the ministry of Christ while He walked here on earth, no. It would not be until on the day of Pentecost that their Spiritual eyes and ears were opened for understanding as they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Get your Strongs or whatever you want to use to compare verses which use the same Greek word for hate as (Luke 14:26) does. Strongs Greek reference is 3404. And I quote, "from a prim. ....(hatred);to detest (espec. to persecute); by extens. to love less:-hateful"

Very good point/definition.

The primary definition is to hate. Just like I told you, hate means hate. You opted for the less offending definition, which most do. It makes them feel better.

Agreed. (Aside: I have always been undecided as to what HATE in this verse means. I grant I want to go with the majority ... but I can't logically go along with the majorities definition of HATE; yet, I can't make sense of hating one's parents who may even be Christians as there are many verses saying to love those that hate you, etc.)

The primary definition is to hate. Just like I told you, hate means hate. You opted for the less offending definition, which most do. It makes them feel better.

Hard to keep track of everyone's statements. I don't think I fit in the group that say "love less". I am on the fence (confused by the verse). Here's is what I said previously:
I have to admit that the word HATE in Luke 14:26 could mean 'detest' or 'love less'. How the site determined 'hate' in Luke 14:26 is 'love less' and not 'detest' is a mystery to me.

So, in summary, I am sympathetic to your opinion on the verse (Aside: not the opinion where you define a word by using the word i.e. hate means hate ... your definition from Strong's being MUCH better)

Aside: When I think about it .... "love less" is almost meaningless .... I love Satan less than Hitler who I love less than my neighbor who I love less than my father who I love less than God .... therefore I love everyone less than God ... therefore "love less" is next to meaningless as it fit's everyone and covers the entire spectrum of intensities of HATE. Hmmm, using a meaningless phrase like "love less" makes almost everyone happy ... as it fits everyone's thought process.

 

[Quantrill]

You are contradicting yourself per what you posted as love less is in that Greek definition you posted. Love less does not mean to detest, abhor someone, it just means per Luke 14:26 to direct your love more towards Christ giving Him first place over those you love like your own family. Like Jesus said to His mother that she should have known He had to be about His Fathers business as He did not rebuke her, but showed her by He being missing and being found in the Temple He had to be about what God gave to Him to do and where to be at that moment.

Did Mary or any of the disciples understand the ministry of Christ while He walked here on earth, no. It would not be until on the day of Pentecost that their Spiritual eyes and ears were opened for understanding as they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Greek definition by Strongs is what I gave. There is no contradiction.

The same word used in (Luke:14:26) is used in the other Scriptures I gave, and many more. They speak to hate. Not to love less. As you ignored.

But, I appreciate your opinion.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Very good point/definition.


Agreed. (Aside: I have always been undecided as to what HATE in this verse means. I grant I want to go with the majority ... but I can't logically go along with the majorities definition of HATE; yet, I can't make sense of hating one's parents who may even be Christians as there are many verses saying to love those that hate you, etc.)



Hard to keep track of everyone's statements. I don't think I fit in the group that say "love less". I am on the fence (confused by the verse). Here's is what I said previously:
I have to admit that the word HATE in Luke 14:26 could mean 'detest' or 'love less'. How the site determined 'hate' in Luke 14:26 is 'love less' and not 'detest' is a mystery to me.

So, in summary, I am sympathetic to your opinion on the verse (Aside: not the opinion where you define a word by using the word i.e. hate means hate ... your definition from Strong's being MUCH better)

Aside: When I think about it .... "love less" is almost meaningless .... I love Satan less than Hitler who I love less than my neighbor who I love less than my father who I love less than God .... therefore I love everyone less than God ... therefore "love less" is next to meaningless as it fit's everyone and covers the entire spectrum of intensities of HATE. Hmmm, using a meaningless phrase like "love less" makes almost everyone happy ... as it fits everyone's thought process.

Yes. It fits the American understanding of hate and that it can only be evil.

The Church in America has been influenced by this so that they recoil at the thought that God can hate, as hate is evil. Thus the more acceptable view of 'love less'.

Have you ever noticed how Jesus never did try to pacify anyone. He didn't say, 'but oh wait, less you misunderstand, I really didn't mean hate. I meant just don't love them as much'. He just said it and moved on.

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes. It fits the American understanding of hate and that it can only be evil.

Agreed (the majority of Christians cannot define God's Love or God's Hate)

The Church in America has been influenced by this so that they recoil at the thought that God can hate, as hate is evil. Thus the more acceptable view of 'love less'.

General agreement. (aside: I dissect the meaning of hate (and love) and go from there ... long story)

Have you ever noticed how Jesus never did try to pacify anyone. He didn't say, 'but oh wait, less you misunderstand, I really didn't mean hate. I meant just don't love them as much'. He just said it and moved on.

Agreed... back to your previous comment that current American theology stresses "God is love" beyond reason and revelation.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Greek definition by Strongs is what I gave. There is no contradiction.

The same word used in (Luke:14:26) is used in the other Scriptures I gave, and many more. They speak to hate. Not to love less. As you ignored.

But, I appreciate your opinion.

Quantrill

I did not ignore anything as "love less" is within the definition Strong's gives and I believe this is what Jesus meant in Luke 14:26 as loving Him more than your family or even yourself as He must come first in all things.

 

[Quantrill]

Agreed (the majority of Christians cannot define God's Love or God's Hate)


General agreement. (aside: I dissect the meaning of hate (and love) and go from there ... long story)


Agreed... back to your previous comment that current American theology stresses "God is love" beyond reason and revelation.

Ok. Explain.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I did not ignore anything as "love less" is within the definition Strong's gives and I believe this is what Jesus meant in Luke 14:26 as loving Him more than your family or even yourself as He must come first in all things.

You ignored all the Scripture references pertaining to the use of that Greek word. Yes, you ignored what you wanted to.

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ok. Explain.

Quantrill

Caveat: I am not confident that I know what Luke 14:26 means so I can't answer the theme of the post to my own satisfaction ... I do have an idea of what LOVE and HATE mean and I don't think most people do. The understanding of what LOVE and HATE mean is essential to understanding any verse using those words.

Short Story ....Love is a volition to favor and Hate is a volition to disfavor.

Long Story
LOVE
Love Defined: God’s love is an intellectual (passionless) disposition to favor according to the ‘divine likeness’ of the object (God himself and those “in Christ” being the most lovely

LOVE - an act of mind and will, the determined care for the welfare of something or someone. It might well include strong emotion, but its distinguishing characteristics were the dedication and commitment of choice.

Love hates moral evil and clings to righteousness. It is also an error to interpret “God is love” to mean God is only love…using love as a paring knife to cut away his power, justice, and wrath against sin, leaving only unconditional acceptance and positive regard, which is mere “amiable weakness” and “sentiment.” Christians become imbalanced if they teach that God is primarily love, as if love trumped all other attributes of God. Without God’s love, none of his other attributes would be beautiful, but love sweetens all of his attributes. Hebrews 1:9 “You have loved righteousness [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] and have hated lawlessness [injustice, sin] Stephen Charnock

Aheb , the Hebrew word for love used in Deuteronomy 6:5, refers primarily to an act of mind and will, the determined care for the welfare of something or someone. It might well include strong emotion, but its distinguishing characteristics were the dedication and commitment of choice. It is the love that recognizes and chooses to follow that which is righteous, noble, and true, regardless of what one’s feelings in a matter might be. It is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek agapa image (Image) in the New Testament, the verb of intelligent, purposeful, and committed love that is an act of the will. This love is in contrast to the emotion and tender affection of phile image (image) and the physical, sensual love of eros (which is not used in the New Testament). John MacArthur – New Testament Commentary

Consider: If an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. Vincent Cheung Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

There is a difference between the intra-trinitarian love of the triune God and the love God has for his creatures. God's intra-trinitarian love is eternal and therefore natural and necessary. However, the love of God in relation to his creatures is not necessary, but rather voluntary. God loves all things according to the degree of loveliness (Divine likeness) in it.


Wrath/Hate
Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God’s nature, but is his “holy justice against sin”. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology Job 35:7

Hate in man can be emotional ... God's hatred is not emotional

“If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” Consider: If an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. Vincent Cheung

Jonathan Edwards: if God’s infinite hatred against sin included “pain and grief” over each sin, then the countless sins committed by demons and men would cause God to “suffer infinite pain, every day” and make him “the most miserable of all beings”—whereas in truth, God is “perfectly happy,” for he sovereignly uses the evil of sin for his glory.

‘Love’ and ‘hate’ are not emotions that God feels but actions that he carries out.” Tom Constable

If he doth whatsoever he pleaseth, nothing can make him miserable, since misery consists in those things which happen against our will. Stephen Charnock

Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God. It would be more appropriate to say that the wrath of God is the manifestation of the holiness of God in the context of sinfulness of man. So, within the trinitarian fellowship that holiness is expressed amongst the members of the trinity but not wrath. Sinclair Ferguson

 

[for_his_glory]

You ignored all the Scripture references pertaining to the use of that Greek word. Yes, you ignored what you wanted to.

Quantrill

Just because we do not agree doesn't mean I ignored every scripture that uses the word hate. Love less does not mean hate in the sense of intense dislike, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe or enmity towards another. Did Jesus hate His mother, brothers, sisters or even his disciples, no, He loved them very much. God hates the evil that's in a person and rejects them as being not His own, unless they repent and turn back to Him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God hates the evil that's in a person

Evil cannot exist without a person; if not send the evil to hell and what's left over to heaven. God hates the person.

Can God love and hate the same person?
Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

 

[for_his_glory]

Evil cannot exist without a person; if not send the evil to hell and what's left over to heaven. God hates the person.

Can God love and hate the same person?
Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.

I believe that verse in Luke 14:26 means God wants us to give Him first place above everything on this earth that includes family and even our own self. It doesn't mean that we abhor our family in disgust, but that our love for Him must come first as the same as being about our Fathers business that comes first and foremost.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I believe that verse in Luke 14:26 means God wants us to give Him first place above everything on this earth that includes family and even our own self. It doesn't mean that we abhor our family in disgust, but that our love for Him must come first as the same as being about our Fathers business that comes first and foremost.

I agree that the verse does not say we should "abhor our family in disgust" as that would contradict scripture. That was not my question. I will try again:

Can God love and hate the same person?
Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree that the verse does not say we should "abhor our family in disgust" as that would contradict scripture. That was not my question. I will try again:

Can God love and hate the same person?
Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

Let me ask you, your son murders your wife right in front of you. You have him arrested, charged, tried, and convicted of murder. He is on death row, and about to be executed.
Do you love him? Or do you hate him?
Do you love what he did? Or do you hate what he did?
Will you see him executed anyway?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Let me ask you, your son murders your wife right in front of you. You have him arrested, charged, tried, and convicted of murder. He is on death row, and about to be executed.
Do you love him? Or do you hate him?

That's a hypothetical question ... I would have to go through it to answer. *sorry, don't mean to "cop out"*

Do you love what he did? Or do you hate what he did?

Easier question ... I hate what he did.

Will you see him executed anyway?

As in go to the execution ... .I don't know.
Aside: Anyone that murders their mother probably has a long, evil history ... said history I am not aware of.

Not sure where we are going with these questions.