Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[GodsGrace]

IF this is correct Biblically, which is it not, then WHO Created THROUGH God the Father?

John 1;3

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 2:10 reads:

"For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

This verse is obout God the Father. "FOR" and "THROUGH" are the same Greek preposition, “διά”, in the genitive case, as it is in Hebrews 1:2, where is used for Jesus Christ, "through (διά) Whom He made the universe"

IF, in Hebrews 1:2, the preposition means "Creation by the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ", then the SAME has to be true in Hebrews 2:10, where we read of Creation THROUGH the Father! As Jesus Christ is the other mentioned Person in this passage in Hebrews 2, it is conclusive that Jesus Christ Created THROUGH God the Father.

Now try to prove this wrong

Father is the creator.
He created through the Logos, the Son.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Father is the creator.
He created through the Logos, the Son.

that does not address what Hebrews 2:10 says.

Forget "theology", it is what the Bible actually teaches that really counts!

Now try and show from the Greek grammar of Hebrews 2:10, that the preposition διά, does not mean THROUGH.

 

[Randy]

Hebrews 2:10 reads:

"For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

This verse is obout God the Father. "FOR" and "THROUGH" are the same Greek preposition, “διά”, in the genitive case, as it is in Hebrews 1:2, where is used for Jesus Christ, "through (διά) Whom He made the universe"

IF, in Hebrews 1:2, the preposition means "Creation by the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ", then the SAME has to be true in Hebrews 2:10, where we read of Creation THROUGH the Father! As Jesus Christ is the other mentioned Person in this passage in Hebrews 2, it is conclusive that Jesus Christ Created THROUGH God the Father.

Now try to prove this wrong

Since a distinction was clearly made in regard to both usages your outlook is mistaken.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

From the Father given through the Son
Acts 2
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life,and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear

 

[Randy]

that does not address what Hebrews 2:10 says.

Forget "theology", it is what the Bible actually teaches that really counts!

Now try and show from the Greek grammar of Hebrews 2:10, that the preposition διά, does not mean THROUGH.

As I have pointed out the same writer
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

 

[GodsGrace]

that does not address what Hebrews 2:10 says.

Forget "theology", it is what the Bible actually teaches that really counts!

Now try and show from the Greek grammar of Hebrews 2:10, that the preposition διά, does not mean THROUGH.

How do we forget theology?
No time now,,,
But aren't your 2 verses in conflict?
I mean Hebrews 2:10
And John 1:3?

How do you reconcile?

 

[SolaScriptura]

As I have pointed out the same writer
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

Ok, I see that you cannot give an straight answer to what Hebrews 2:10 says, as no doubt that it will contradict your belief about Jesus Christ!

Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”. Here, like in Hebrews 2:10, we have the same Greek preposition, διά, which also means, THROUGH. Who else Created THROUGH God the Father? Answer: Jesus Christ!

You are argue all you like, but none of what you say can change the meaning of what the Bible says!

 

[SolaScriptura]

How do we forget theology?
No time now,,,
But aren't your 2 verses in conflict?
I mean Hebrews 2:10
And John 1:3?

How do you reconcile?

The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed)

God the Father Created WITH God the Son. Not THROUGH. Genesis 1:1 says that GOD Created, no THROUGH!

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, I see that you cannot give an straight answer to what Hebrews 2:10 says, as no doubt that it will contradict your belief about Jesus Christ!

Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”. Here, like in Hebrews 2:10, we have the same Greek preposition, διά, which also means, THROUGH. Who else Created THROUGH God the Father? Answer: Jesus Christ!

You are argue all you like, but none of what you say can change the meaning of what the Bible says!

Then we agree.
I think.
Later

 

[GodsGrace]

The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed)

God the Father Created WITH God the Son. Not THROUGH. Genesis 1:1 says that GOD Created, no THROUGH!

Interesting
With instead of through.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Interesting
With instead of through.

The preposition never means instead

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It stated that Jesus is the Son of God NOT David's son. To state otherwise would be based in unbelief in the testimony proclaimed from the beginning.

If you deny him as the son of God, then that'd be your unbelief, not anybody else's.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings Alfred Persson,

Not sure if I would apply the following as you have:
Colossians 1:17 (KJV): And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

I am not sure if that is how electromagnetism works. I am also a firm believer that faith comes from hearing Romans 10:17, 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Kind regards
Trevor

Research Colossians 1:17 carefully, its mind boggling.

As for virtual particles:

I like this video, it meets one of my criteria. When a person truly knows what they are talking about, they can simplify it. When a person doesn't know, they obfuscate.

 

[GodsGrace]

The preposition never means instead

At home now....
I never would think that the creation was INSTEAD....
I always believed it meant BOTH.
God wants to create...He is a creator.
He creates through Jesus....not instead.
It takes both to create.

It takes all 3 to save.
Father knows who will be saved -conditionally.
He gives to the Son - for salvation.
The Holy Spirit guides and comforts.

Not to change the topic...just for illustration.

Do you agree?

 

[Runningman]

It does mean he's the presence of God in human form.

Son of God applies to others and it doesn't mean they are the presence of God.

This is a reproach against idolatry, where does it state or imply that "offsprings" are illegitimate?

My point is that Jesus is not the only legitimate son of God. Offspring are legitimate children.

 

[Runningman]

No you do not. I don't know why you think that. Unless you recruit more biblical unitarians your going to spend lots of time fielding replies on a "christian forum"

Jesus and all of his disciples are Unitarians. I don't need to recruit anyone since they are doing all of the work.

its very clear language but you can not hear anything in regard to the Son who was before the world began. Which was believed and testified about Jesus.
John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was created[u]by him, but the world did not recognize him.
(u)
tn Or “was made”; Grk “came into existence.”

Jesus was not in the world though. He was sent from God, a heaven sent. I tried to help you, but you can't accept it. The world was created by God. John 1:9,10 prove this. It wasn't Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

He didn’t need to; he had just stuck his hand and fingers into Jesus’s wounds, the resurrected Jesus. He was very clearly directly addressing Jesus—“the Lord of me and the God of me.” There is simply no other way to legitimately understand this verse other than Thomas declaring that Jesus was his Lord and his God.


You’re taking things out of context, which I have pointed out before. Jesus claimed to be God, explicitly and implicitly. He pointed to the Father as God which he should have done, given that Judaism teaches there is only one God. But that in no way precludes Jesus from also being God.


Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, did he not?


Textually, there is every reason to believe that Thomas was telling Jesus that he was his Lord and his God; there is no reason to think otherwise. The only way to make it say otherwise is to read preconceived ideas into the text and make it say something that or doesn’t plainly say.


On the contrary, Jesus made that claim explicitly and implicitly. John, Paul, and Peter did likewise. Again, on several occasions the disciples worshipped Jesus. Matthew really believed that Jesus was “God with us.” Everything points to Jesus being God, just not the Father.

I am not a follower of Thomas. He certainly didn't repeat something Jesus ever said. Jesus never said "I am Lord and God." Therefore it doesn't follow that Thomas would have been privy to some secret information that apparently no one else ever said.

I am a follower of Jesus. When Jesus said "My God" he wasn't speaking of himself. He was speaking of the Father. I recommend you follow him too.

Matthew 27
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,h lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

 

[SolaScriptura]

At home now....
I never would think that the creation was INSTEAD....
I always believed it meant BOTH.
God wants to create...He is a creator.
He creates through Jesus....not instead.
It takes both to create.

It takes all 3 to save.
Father knows who will be saved -conditionally.
He gives to the Son - for salvation.
The Holy Spirit guides and comforts.

Not to change the topic...just for illustration.

Do you agree?

What you are saying is only speculation and not what the Bible actually teaches

 

[GodsGrace]

What you are saying is only speculation and not what the Bible actually teaches

Which part is speculation?
I'll give you the scripture.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Which part is speculation?
I'll give you the scripture.

God wants to create...He is a creator.
He creates through Jesus

not anywhere in the entire Bible