Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

Are you a Unitarian?

The normal Unitarian label has a long history and I am not in fellowship with this category. I believe that there is One God, the Father. I belong to a fellowship that developed in the 1840s.

Jesus spoke as a witness of Abraham hence His answer to the sarcasm of His accusers , "you are not yet 50 years old and you have "seen" Abraham"

I consider that the Pharisees deliberately muddied the water. When did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus' day, and when did he see this day and was glad?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Man can't kill the soul.

The subject of immortal souls should be considered in another thread. I believe in the mortality of man and his return to the dust at death Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.

The writer of Hebrews stated:
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; No a body was prepared for Him.

But Paul is quoting Psalm 40:6-8. We are all wondrously made, and Jesus especially so.
Psalm 139:13–16 (KJV): 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

You have Johns testimony even before the 12 understood.
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

God intervened and caused Jesus to be born, therefore his origin is from heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

I believe it was the Father living in Him doing His work. As in God created by Him just as God spoke to us in these last days by Him.

Before you quote your favorite Hebrews verses why did you not consider that this is the very same writer?

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

WHY would Almighty God, Create through someone who is "lesser" than Himself, Who is not Almighty God? Genesis 1:1 says, "in the beginning GOD Created...". there is not ONE Bible verse that says that God Created "through" anyone! This is human "theology", and Biblically WRONG!

 

[Randy]

WHY would Almighty God, Create through someone who is "lesser" than Himself, Who is not Almighty God? Genesis 1:1 says, "in the beginning GOD Created...". there is not ONE Bible verse that says that God Created "through" anyone! This is human "theology", and Biblically WRONG!

The Father is the only true God. No God will be formed after Him. Hence the fullness was not formed but gifted to His Firstborn. Col 1:19 Jesus and the Father are ONE.
Jesus is all that the Father is for all that the Father is, His Deity in fullness, dwells or lives in Christ. A Son called Mighty God. It is by that Deity in Him that Jesus created as in God created by or through His Son. The Father living in Him doing His work.
Jesus, His spirit, is not divine and He has always been the Son. So just as God is Jesus's heavenly Father, God is our heavenly Father. Just as God is Jesus's God the same God is our God. As already shown it is because God exalted Jesus above all that Jesus is Lord. As Paul wrote One God the Father and one Lord Jesus. One can acknowledge the nature found in the Son, all the fullness of God, and know who gave Him that nature and who is the only true God. One can also see the "oneness" Jesus spoke of between Him and the Father.

This understanding is from above.

The person of the Father on the throne in heaven.
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

As stated, if someone calls another their Father and God then TO THEM that other must be the greater. This is not assumed or from man as Jesus stated the Father is greater than Him and the only true God and His God and Father. What you should see is the Father, who has not received anything from any other, has glorified Jesus, who received all that He is from the Father, above all others. The why is because that was what He was pleased to do according to His plans.

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Randy,

The normal Unitarian label has a long history and I am not in fellowship with this category. I believe that there is One God, the Father. I belong to a fellowship that developed in the 1840s.

You believe Jesus was a man whose life bagan in Mary's womb and was exalted by God. That is a widely held unitarian belief is it not?

I consider that the Pharisees deliberately muddied the water. When did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus' day, and when did he see this day and was glad?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Both what they stated in that He saw Abraham and His presumed age and how Jesus answered is clear to me. It is stated He is before all things and all those things were created through or by Him. John, the writer of Hebrews and Paul were very clear in this witness.

The subject of immortal souls should be considered in another thread. I believe in the mortality of man and his return to the dust at death Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.

But Paul is quoting Psalm 40:6-8. We are all wondrously made, and Jesus especially so.
Psalm 139:13–16 (KJV): 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

You just ignored clear testimony that states Jesus alive in the Spirit preached to the spirits in prison. Your free to do that but it doesn't show truth.
Those that believe in Jesus Never die as they live by Him.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Stephen when he was being stoned. -While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

God intervened and caused Jesus to be born, therefore his origin is from heaven.

Jesus testfied "HE" came down from heaven and spoke of ascending to where He was before. He is a living being not a thought of God or plan of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

The Father is the only true God. No God will be formed after Him. Hence the fullness was not formed but gifted to His Firstborn. Col 1:19 Jesus and the Father are ONE.
Jesus is all that the Father is for all that the Father is, His Deity in fullness, dwells or lives in Christ. A Son called Mighty God. It is by that Deity in Him that Jesus created as in God created by or through His Son. The Father living in Him doing His work.
Jesus, His spirit, is not divine and He has always been the Son. So just as God is Jesus's heavenly Father, God is our heavenly Father. Just as God is Jesus's God the same God is our God. As already shown it is because God exalted Jesus above all that Jesus is Lord. As Paul wrote One God the Father and one Lord Jesus. One can acknowledge the nature found in the Son, all the fullness of God, and know who gave Him that nature and who is the only true God. One can also see the "oneness" Jesus spoke of between Him and the Father.

This understanding is from above.

The person of the Father on the throne in heaven.
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

As stated, if someone calls another their Father and God then TO THEM that other must be the greater. This is not assumed or from man as Jesus stated the Father is greater than Him and the only true God and His God and Father. What you should see is the Father, who has not received anything from any other, has glorified Jesus, who received all that He is from the Father, above all others. The why is because that was what He was pleased to do according to His plans.

The Father Himself Addresses Jesus Christ is The Creator in Hebrews 1:10-12 (see Psalm 102:24-27)

This is clear that the Father cannot be "the only true God", as Creation is what Almighty God Preforms, which is also done by Jesus!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

You believe Jesus was a man whose life began in Mary's womb and was exalted by God.

Yes.

Both what they stated in that He saw Abraham and His presumed age and how Jesus answered is clear to me.

When did Abraham rejoice to see the day of Christ?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

The Father Himself Addresses Jesus Christ is The Creator in Hebrews 1:10-12 (see Psalm 102:24-27)

This is clear that the Father cannot be "the only true God", as Creation is what Almighty God Preforms, which is also done by Jesus!

As I have already shown this is the same writer of Hebrews. It is cohesive with the Father being from whom all things came and Jesus through whom all things came. If you don't accept that it's not me, you disagree with.
Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Randy,

Yes.

When did Abraham rejoice to see the day of Christ?

Kind regards
Trevor

Because Abrahan belonged to and loved his God. God showed Him the one who would come down from heaven in His behalf and in His name.

Since Jesus stated "I AM" before Abraham was born then stating otherwise is not truth.
As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. As in he rejoiced to see that day. -Hence their sarcasm "You are not yet 50 years old and you've seen Abraham?"

All things came into existence through Jesus except His Father who brought those things into existence. That is truth as given.

 

[JLB]

by who and how?

God The Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
• For by Him all things were created

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:15-16

 

[JLB]

Did God the Father create another God?

No.

God the Father beget God the Son.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again wondering and JLB,

The language of the NT is often based upon the concepts and figures introduced in the OT. Figurative language adds a depth and richness to any expression. One book that deals extensively with the various figures of speech is Figures of Speech used in the Bible by Ethelbert W Bullinger 1899, 1104 pages. Some of Bullinger's work on Figures of Speech have been added to The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge by Jerome H Smith 1992, 1657 pages. This also has a Figure of Speech Index at the back of the book, pages 1645-1657.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor, can't remember if I replied to the above...

I think the misunderstanding (on my part maybe) is that what you call figurative speech, I can
a metaphor.

To me a figure of speech means that the topic spoken about is not "real".
A metaphor means that something is used in place of something else, like the wisdom being a woman in the OT, which you had mentioned.
Or that the soil is our heart and the seed is God's word.

 

[JLB]

I believe it was the Father living in Him doing His work.

Jesus is the WORD.

Jesus spoke the will of the Father in the work of creation.

The WORD is God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

Jesus created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colossians 1:16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

Because Abraham belonged to and loved his God. God showed Him the one who would come down from heaven in His behalf and in His name.

I suggest that Jesus is referring to Genesis 22 and the typical sacrifice of Isaac that pointed forward to the ministry of Jesus and his crucifixion, death and resurrection.
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

I also believe that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as in the immediate context in John 8:24 and John 8:28.
John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.
This is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again wondering,

I think the misunderstanding (on my part maybe) is that what you call figurative speech, I can ... a metaphor.
To me a figure of speech means that the topic spoken about is not "real".
A metaphor means that something is used in place of something else, like the wisdom being a woman in the OT, which you had mentioned.
Or that the soil is our heart and the seed is God's word.

Maybe I was not precise and could have said figures of speech, but I used the term "figurative language" to include metaphor, simile and especially I had in mind personification when I spoke of "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8 which I also paralleled with "The Word" in John 1:1 and "The Word of Life" in 1 John 1:1. Most Trinitarians exclusively equate "The Word" and "The Word of Life" in the beginning as Jesus, but I consider it similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" and see these three terms as personifications, and then these qualities find their fulness in the human Jesus. Jesus as a child grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

God The Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
• For by Him all things were created

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:15-16

As I have very clearly shown in the OP, there is no "begetting" in μονογενὴς

Further, in Hebrews 1:10-12, the Father Addresses Jesus as THE CREATOR, and applies Psalm 102:24-27 to Him

 

[Josef]

Can you provide just ONE verse in the Old Testament, where God is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ?

Hey All,
Your question feels like a trap SolaScriptura. You specifically said the Old Testament. I suspect that is because you know we have the voice of God saying so in the New Testament.

Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

But I have an answer; or rather the Word of God does.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

We know the first sentence is speaking of Jesus because Hebrews 1:5 tells us this.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

I found this online.
"This verse is alluded to Psalm 89:26 as an explicit reference to David and by implication, his sons. By comparing the wider context of Psalm 89:20-51; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; and Isaiah 55:3-4 with Luke 1:31-35 and Acts 13:34, it is obvious that the only one who fulfills the description of an everlasting kingdom is Jesus, the Son of God, and therefore never subject to the consequences of violating covenant with God." Quote from Adam Simnowitz; a minister with the Assemblies of God. He lives in Dearborn, MI.

Pastor Simnowitz explained it far better than I could have.
Next we have:

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This verse is quoted in Acts 13:33 as a reference to Jesus and to His resurrection.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Next:

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

This is another direct quote from God referring to His Son Jesus. Matthew makes this clear.

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

I have given you three. There are more. But I am not going to go back and forth with you. I have given you verse and proof that God spoke specifically about his Son in the Old Testament: And while not called by name in the Old Testament, the New Testament does specifically refer to these verses as speaking of Jesus. What you do with this knowledge is up to you.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hey All,
Your question feels like a trap SolaScriptura. You specifically said the Old Testament. I suspect that is because you know we have the voice of God saying so in the New Testament.

Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

But I have an answer; or rather the Word of God does.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

We know the first sentence is speaking of Jesus because Hebrews 1:5 tells us this.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

I found this online.
"This verse is alluded to Psalm 89:26 as an explicit reference to David and by implication, his sons. By comparing the wider context of Psalm 89:20-51; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; and Isaiah 55:3-4 with Luke 1:31-35 and Acts 13:34, it is obvious that the only one who fulfills the description of an everlasting kingdom is Jesus, the Son of God, and therefore never subject to the consequences of violating covenant with God." Quote from Adam Simnowitz; a minister with the Assemblies of God. He lives in Dearborn, MI.

Pastor Simnowitz explained it far better than I could have.
Next we have:

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This verse is quoted in Acts 13:33 as a reference to Jesus and to His resurrection.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Next:

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

This is another direct quote from God referring to His Son Jesus. Matthew makes this clear.

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

I have given you three. There are more. But I am not going to go back and forth with you. I have given you verse and proof that God spoke specifically about his Son in the Old Testament: And while not called by name in the Old Testament, the New Testament does specifically refer to these verses as speaking of Jesus. What you do with this knowledge is up to you.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

all the Old Testament passages you quote, are Prophecy!

 

[Randy]

Jesus is the WORD.

Jesus spoke the will of the Father in the work of creation.

The WORD is God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

Jesus created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colossians 1:16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

Col 1-16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
The nature found in the word-all the fullness of God.

And God spoke to us in these last days by His Son
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Just as God created by or through His Son

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Randy,

I suggest that Jesus is referring to Genesis 22 and the typical sacrifice of Isaac that pointed forward to the ministry of Jesus and his crucifixion, death and resurrection.
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

I also believe that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as in the immediate context in John 8:24 and John 8:28.
John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.
This is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus=>Before Abraham was born "I" Am.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

Jesus=>Before Abraham was born "I" Am.

I still stand by what I stated in that Post:

I also believe that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as in the immediate context in John 8:24 and John 8:28.
John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.
This is part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ.

Looking first at the two references in the immediate context:
John 8:24,28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
This is exactly the same expression as in John 8:58 and the KJV translators saw the necessity of adding the "he" in both of their individual immediate contexts, and I suggest that this same translation should also carry over into John 8:58.

The following are also part of this theme, of whether or not Jesus is the Christ and these are also occurrences of the same words as John 8:58. Actually it starts with John the Baptist, and then Jesus explicitly states that he is the Christ to the Samaritan woman:
John 1:19–20 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

"I am" is a bit awkward in English and the translators see the need to add the "he" to make better sense, and the same words are used by the blind man:
John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

Kind regards
Trevor