Actually the son of perdition is the evil one being a human that will take a literal seat in Jerusalem. Satan (who is a spirit not of flesh and blood) will work through and even now is working through him, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.
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Unveiled Secrets The Rapture
- Thread starter Mark S
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Then the promises to Israel remain to Israel. Correct? The promises that God will never fully abandon them means that God will never abandon Israel. Correct. (Jer. 31:31-36) Can the nation of Israel believe God in this?
Sorry, there is need to give that again. Yes, you have explained, but your explanation is lacking. Explain the time period of Christ's rule on earth. How long is it? Explain the time period of satan being bound. How long is it? Is it all just symbolic? Is Jesus Second Coming symbolic?
What makes Jesus Second Coming real, and the Millennium symbolic?
Quantrill
There is no more Jew or Greek as all who are of faithful Abraham being the seed of Christ receive His promise of inheriting the kingdom of God and the promise of eternal life through the Spiritual rebirth from above and are Baptized in Christ for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The law was added because of transgressions, till the seed (Christ Jesus) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Our inheritance is not of the law, but by that same faith Abraham had and all the generations after Him. Our mediator is Christ Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for all who will come to Him by faith through God's grace.
The Law and the Promise
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
You gave no explanation or answer to my questions in post #(102). That salvation is always by faith is not the point.
You said the Church had a beginning which was Pentecost. Therefore Israel prior to the Church was not the Church. Correct? And, the believers prior to Israel were not Israel. Correct?
So God's promises to Israel are true. Correct? (Jer. 31:31-37) Or did God break His promises to them?
Explain the time period when Jesus returns and rules on earth while satan is bound. How long does it last? Is it all just symbolic? If it is all just symbolic, then why isn't Christ's Second Coming just symbolic?
Scripture is clear that the time will be a thousand years. (Rev. 20:1-6) Making the resurrections distinct. (Rev. 20:5)
Quantrill
I gave you explanation in answering your question, but apparently it was not what you wanted to hear. Israel prior to the day of Pentecost was not the Church of God being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body that the Lord added to daily.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
What we read in Rev 7:1-8 are the 144,000 generational Jews that God will have saved who were faithful and obedient to God and His Son Christ Jesus.
Deuteronomy 7:9-11 This is God's chosen which He keeps covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations. But repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Galatians 3:28 Now under a better covenant of His grace through faith He now joins Jew and Gentile who believe in God and His Son Christ Jesus as we have faith in Him.
Again I apologize for the length as even I do not like long post, but don't know how I could shorten it as it needs explaining in the full context.
Right after the seven vial judgments have been poured out on those who took the mark of the beast mystery Babylon will have been revealed and destroyed with fire as the kings of all the nations who took part in her will flee and bewail her destruction as well as those merchants who were made rich by her. Heaven and all those souls that have gone back to God while their physical bodies returned to the ground/grave will then rejoice as their blood will be avenged by God as the great city Babylon that has been revealed will be destroyed and the preaching of the Gospel will end as the door of Salvation will be closed forever as in Jesus was life and life was the light of men, but the darkness could not comprehend it, Rev 16-18, John 1:1-5.
Rev 19:1-6 begins with all those in heaven as they are rejoicing as God will have judged the great whore and destroys her in the end of days as even now she is corrupting the earth an causes much blood shed as she persecutes the saints of God to death. Rev 19:7-10 comes the timing of the marriage of the Lamb as the whore of Babylon and her city will have been destroyed and all those who are Christ asleep in the grave and alive at His coming have prepared themselves for the marriage of the Lamb as they being His Bride will sup with Him for eternity. Rev 19:7-9 mentions nothing of us being caught up to Him yet, but to us it will be granted that we being the Bride should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
The events that follow after heaven rejoices starting with Rev 19:11-21 is that Jesus returns with his army of warring angels (not the saints of God) from heaven that follow Him, as Jesus will then destroy the beast and fasle prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then will strike dead the remnant by the words of His mouth as the remnant are those who the beast uses to rule evil over the nations. Christ then sends an angel to bind Satan for a 1000 years so he can no longer deceive the nations (people) anymore until he is set loose for a time. A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
Rev 20:4-15 during this time of Satan being bound comes the resurrection of all, (as all means saints and those who are not of faith in God), who are asleep in the ground will hear the voice of Christ calling them to come forth as some will be resurrected to eternal life with the Father and others to damnation, John 5:28,29, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 1:1-10; 4:13-18. When we are given our new glorified bodies Jesus will gather us to Him like a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings for protection, Matthew 23:34-39. Satan will be loosed for a short time to go out and deceive the nations by gathering all those who are his own and then sends them to attack the camp of the saints, but God sends fire down from heaven to devour them. Satan is then cast into the lake of fire followed by those who stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and as their names are not written in the book of life will then be cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more.
Many teach that there are two resurrections, but that is not what scriptures says.There is only one resurrection, but two judgments of those who sleep in the grave, John 5:28,29. Everyone was created by God, but not all are found faithful to Him as many refused to Hear the word of God and turned away from Him and will continue to do so until the coming of the Lord. Then there are those like that of the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25:14-30 and the judgment of the Gentiles in Matthew 25:31-46. We know Jesus comes with rewards as the rewards are different for each one.
Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4 were only visions John was being shown as it is only the souls that are reigning with Christ in heaven as John 3:13 says no one other than Christ has ever ascended up to heaven. The only thing that goes back to God when this physical body dies and goes back to the dust of the ground is the very breath/spirit that made us a living soul as the soul can never die, Genesis 22:7; Ecc 12:7; Matthew 10:28. Those souls John was being shown are reigning with Christ in Heaven for a time until all of God's enemies become His footstool as Christ who sits at the right hand of the Father reigns with Him in heaven until the end comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and establishes His kingdom here on earth and takes His seat on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem, Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:33-37; Hebrews 10:12,13.
Many look for a physical kingdom here on earth and read into Rev 20 that Christ will reign for a thousand years here on earth with His saints, but truth is that Christ has always reigned with God from before the foundation of the world and for all eternity, John 1:1-4; 1Peter 1:18-23. It was Satan's pride that caused the nations to sin against God as Satan ruled evil over the nations, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, but yet the nations have always been Gods kingdoms as in the end of days He will separate the sheep from the goats/wheat from the tares. In Rev 11:14-19 the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever. What this means is that Gods longsuffering and patience will come to an end, 2 Peter 3:9, 10, as His great wrath is poured out on the earth. All His enemies will become His footstool, then will He send Christ and His army of angels to destroy all that is an abomination to Him casting it all into the lake of fire. Jesus will at that time establish His kingdom here on earth as God makes new the heaven and earth ushering down the new Jerusalem as we will then be with the Lord forever, Luke 19:12; 1Corinthians 15:20-26; 2 Peter 3:10; Colossians 1:13; John 18:36, Rev 21:1.
Everything from Rev 11:14 that starts the third woe with the seventh trumpet sounding and continues through Rev 20:15 comes quickly in Gods timing, even though man tries to put a certain timing to the beginning and end of Gods great wrath. We inherit the kingdoms of God from the day of our Spiritual rebirth, John 3:3-6; Romans 10:9,10 as they have been prepared for us from the foundation of the world, Matthew 25:34. We reign with Christ here on this present earth as Gods grace gives us all power and authority through that of Christ Jesus for it is not our power and authority, but is Christ's that works in us and through us as a faithful servant as He is in us and we in Him.
So Israel and the Church are not the same. Correct? And the promises in (Jer. 31:31-37) are to Israel. Correct? Will God keep His promise to Israel? If He doesn't, how can you trust Him to keep His promises to you?
When you inject 'generational Jews' to define the 144,000, you foul the waters. Nothing indicates your use of generational Jews. It simply states that 12,000 from each tribe of Israel are sealed. Making 144,000 sealed Jews.
Why should you believe the number 144,000 when you don't believe the 1000 year Millennium? (Rev. 20:1-6) Why isn't Christ's Second Coming just symbolic if the Millennium is symbolic?
Quantrill
Because the Church began at Pentecost, the Church is not Israel. Correct? And the believers prior to Israel are not the Church or Israel. Correct? God made promises to Israel in (Jer. 31:31-37). Correct? Will He keep them?
(Rev. 20:4-6) is clear that a thousand years separated the resurrections being addressed. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
You want to say the thousand years is symbolic of a time. Again, how long is that time? However long it is, it separates the resurrections.
In other words, your symbolic interpretation doesn't explain away a time period between the resurrections.
Quantrill
I have already answered your question so I will no longer respond to that. For the rest there is no fouling the waters and please do not tell others they are wrong just because you do not agree with them as this will get you time banned from the thread. I will let it go this time.
For the rest of your reply.
Rev 7:1-8 are the last generational tribes of Israel that we read about in Deuteronomy 7:9 as they are the last generation up to a thousand generations.
The Israelites entered the promise land of Canaan around 1250 BCE. From present day that would have been 3269 years ago. A generation is approximately every 20 years. If you take 3269 and divide that by 20 it equals 163.45 generations from 1250BCE to 2021.
Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Each 12,000 from the tribes of Israel I believe to be literal as in their numbering of all the Jews that are still alive right before the 1st trumpet of God's great wrath that will be poured out into the world. They are those Jews who will have the seal of God on them as they have been steadfast in the Lord being obedient to His commands and statures. I also believe, just the the Disciples of Christ will continue to preach the Gospel of Christ being sent out to the Jews.
Not all of Israel are of Israel as we see that the tribe of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in Rev 7:1-8 as they and their generations have never turned back to God from their idol worshiping.
As far as a literal 1000 years I already explained that in post #106. What would be the reason for Christ to return on the last day as He destroys the beast and its false prophet and keeping Satan bound for a literal 1000 years?
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This all happens on the last day when Christ returns.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus says the last day. Why do people not believe what He has already told us.
One last time, A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
Some of your quotes from this thread.
"These pre-trib theories....Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something as it sounds logical but yet not scriptural." post #(10)
"...there are many pre-trib bandwagon teachers...." post #(50)
"Pre-trib is nothing more than a band wagon money making false teaching....." post #(58)
"The reason I no longer agree with pre-trib is that it is not found in scripture."
"There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation...." post #(89)
Why do you get to speak disparagingly of pre-trib doctrine, calling it false teaching and not Scriptural, when it is due to ones interpretation. It is not because it is not Scriptural. It is. You just disagree with it. It is not false teaching.
You can say these things, yet when I say you have fouled the waters, introducing something that is not there in Scripture, I am under the threat of being banned.
Quantrill
Tell ya what, start here and show me with scripture where it is written about a pretrib Rapture of the Church before Christ returns on the last day as He said He would. We can discuss this with an opened mind and let's stay within the ToS.
Why? You and I interpret the Scriptures differently. I see a Millennium in (Rev. 20:1-6) as I interpret it literally. You don't as you interpret it symbolically. My view of the Millennium is Scriptural, as I just showed you. But it doesn't agree with your method of interpreting Scripture. Your method is Scriptural, but I don't agree with your method.
In other words, it is impossible for us to agree.
You appear to make much of 'the last day' as though it disproves the pre-trib rapture of the Church. But, it doesn't. The Rapture involves the resurrection of the Church only. It began at Pentecost, and it ends, is complete, at the Rapture. Thus making the Rapture the last day of the Church on earth.
There are many days following the Second Coming of Christ. The ordering of the nations, separation of the sheep nations and goat nations. The Millennium. The reign of Christ. The binding of satan. The losing of satan. etc. etc. etc. Many days. One thousand at least. (Rev. 20:1-6)
None of which proves anything to you as to you it is all symbolic.
Quantrill
This happens every time I ask a pretribber to show me scripture where it says we are out of here before Christ returns, but after 30 years I am still waiting. It has nothing to do with who is right or wrong or how the carnal mind thinks, but that of not just a few verses taken out of context, but that of the full context for what has already been written.
I would like to know how do you interpret these scriptures as I would like to discuss them with you rationally.
Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29: 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 4:1, 2.
You like to bring up context. But your context is based upon your symbolic interpretation. The context of (Rev. 20:1-6) is very clear when interpreted literally. But to you it is symbolic. Thus it means whatever you want to symbolize it as. In other words, it is not about context. Nor is it about the carnal mind. Which begs the question, whose carnal mind? Mine or yours?
There is one verse in the Old Testament that spake to the virgin birth of Christ. (Is. 7:14) Thus according to you, because it is only one verse, the Jews should never have believed it was to be taken literally. Maybe that is why they rejected Jesus. One verse proves nothing. It could only be symbolic.
Rationally? As opposed to what? And whose interpretation do you believe is irrational? I'm guessing mine.
I can address the verses you give. But again, why? I already did so with (John 6:40). Yet you want to include it again. Why?
The real question to be addressed is our methods of interpretation. What makes your symbolic, spiritualizing method correct? Why do you reject the literal method of interpretation?
Was the 490 years of (Dan. 9) literal or spiritual? Why?
Was the 70 years of (Jer. 25:11) literal or spiritual? Why?
Was the 400 years of (Gen. 15:13) literal or spiritual? Why?
Is the 1000 year time period named 4 times in (Rev. 20:1-6) literal or spiritual? Why?
Quantrill
for_his_glory
(Matt. 24:29-31) speaks to the Second Coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
(John 5:28-29) speaks to the two resurrections. The first resurrection is that of life. The second or other is that of the damned.
(John 6:40) speaks to the resurrection and transformation of the Church which is part of the first resurrection. The Church began at Pentecost and is completed when the Rapture occurs, though it was not fully understood at that time.
(1 Cor. 15:51-58) speaks to the explanation of the Rapture and that it was a mystery before.
(1 Thess. 4:13-18) speaks to the resurrection and Rapture of the Church.
(Rev. 4:1-2) speaks to John's position being changed from that of Patmos and the earth, to Heaven.
Quantrill
(Matt. 24:29-31) speaks to the Second Coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
(John 5:28-29) speaks to the two resurrections. The first resurrection is that of life. The second or other is that of the damned.
(John 6:40) speaks to the resurrection and transformation of the Church which is part of the first resurrection. The Church began at Pentecost and is completed when the Rapture occurs, though it was not fully understood at that time.
(1 Cor. 15:51-58) speaks to the explanation of the Rapture and that it was a mystery before.
(1 Thess. 4:13-18) speaks to the resurrection and Rapture of the Church.
(Rev. 4:1-2) speaks to John's position being changed from that of Patmos and the earth, to Heaven.
Quantrill
I agree with this, but it is at the end of the seventh trumpet sounding when Christ and His army of host (angels) returns and first destroys the beast and his false prophet an all those leaders from every nation that wondered after the beast, Rev 19:11-21. At that time of His return we are then caught up to Him as per Matthew 24:29-31.
Notice the word "All" that are in their grave. This means those who will be raised to eternal life and those to eternal damnation. One resurrection, but two different judgements.
every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is only speaking about those who are Christ own that will be caught up to Him on the last day. Notice it says last day as again John 5:28, 29
"I shew you a mystery", then the mystery is explained that at the last trumpet those who are Christ own will rise up at that time and are changed being caught up to meet Christ in the air. Christ returns on the last day per Matthew 24:29-31, John 6:40. During the sounding of the seventh trumpet will be the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition who will cause all to takes his mark and renounce Christ or die a martyr's death. Rev 20:4. At the end of those years is when Christ returns and destroys the beast and its false prophet, Rev 19:11-21.
Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.
"and immediately I was in the spirit" John was only in the Spirit on the Isle of Patmos as nowhere does it say he was literally taken up to heaven as these were all visions given to him by the angel Jesus sent to him.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
To understand what I see as literal or symbolic you would have to read Rev Chapter 8 and nine in the book I wrote on Revelations that you can find in the sub forum here under Revelations. It's to much to explain it here.
I'm not going to go into all those other questions as they have nothing to do with the OP. I already gave my explanation of what I believe about the 1000 years.
What makes it at the end of the 7th trumpet? It doesn't say that.
Just because 'all' are resurrected doesn't mean it is all at the same time.
Yes, I noticed that in (John 6:40) it says 'at the last day'. And I have explained it to you twice. Do you even read what I have said? It speaks to the resurrection and Rapture of the Church, which is the last day of the Church on this earth. That is the third time I have said this.
Nothing in (1 Cor. 15:51-58) says the Rapture takes place at the 7th trumpet
You asked me about (1 Thess. 4:13-18), to which I responded. You in turn give a lengthy explanation that doesn't even mention (1 Thess. 4:13-18).
Sorry, John was in the Spirit on Patmos and in Heaven. (Rev. 1:9-10) (Rev. 4:1-2) Yes these were visions, but one was from the position of on the earth. And one was from in Heaven. "Come up hither". (Rev. 4:1)
Quantrill
Gee, I find this interesting that you reject any others writings on the Bible. You are your self made teacher of the Bible. Yet you want to refer me to your book on (Revelation). This seems to me to be a common characteristic with those who reject past Christians advancements in the knowledge of the Bible. That characteristic being they trust the symbolic, allegorical, and spiritual method of interpretation. Why? Who can question it? It's all up to you the interpreter. But, be sure and read my book.
Of course you're not. They have everything to do with the OP as I explained the problem is our method of interpretation. And, your refusal to answer the questions, proves it.
Quantrill