Unveiled Secrets The Rapture

[for_his_glory]

Well, that is strange. You said I lack understanding. You said your study is deep and implied mine is not. Yet now you say you have no idea how I study the Scripture. ???

Sorry, but your 'knowledge' is based upon your method of interpretation of Scripture, just as mine is. You say you used to be pre-trib, but that was not based upon your knowledge because you just believed whatever someone else told you.

As I said before, you had to have changed your method of interpretation. What caused that? What made you believe the allegorical/metaphorical/spiritual method of interpretation was true as opposed to the literal method of interpretation.

Don't tell me it is when you finally understand the Scripture. For I understand the Scripture and disagree with you. What or who changed your mind?

Quantrill

When I said you lack understanding I meant in the area of pretrib like I did at one time believing all those teachings. I never meant that you lacked knowledge in all areas of what the Bible teaches or that your studies are not deep. How would I know how you study or what or who you follow. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but to give that of what I have learned.

When I said I use to believe in pretrib it was because I was not very mature in the word being a new Christian back in the 80's and felt like I lacked knowledge because I could not see it in the scriptures they taught from. For many years I believed everything that came from the pulpit, but yet questioned many things that were not sitting well in my spirit as I could not see in the scriptures that of what they were teaching. Nothing was lining up with what was written in the scriptures. I was so confused and that's when I had to empty my head of all those teachings and start researching all of this for myself.

I wanted to believe in a pretrib and I wish it was true, especially in what I now know that must come first before Christ returns. It took me twenty years of intense digging into Revelations cross referencing between the OT prophecies about end times and what Christ taught in the NT about the end of days without using any commentaries or other books praying earnestly to the Holy Spirit to reveal all of this to me. The reason I teach against it is because I want others to be prepared for that which is to come during the seven trumpets, especially when the son of perdition takes his seat in Jerusalem deceiving the very elect of God if possible. I could only hope I am wrong in all of this, but scripture is to explicit as far as what God has given in great detail to the Prophets and Apostles to write as we also see history repeating itself even now with what is in the world.



This is the questioned I asked that seemed strange to you.

"What would be the purpose of God's great wrath being poured out into the world and that of the mark of the beast if we are already taken out before all this happens?"

God's seven trumpets of wrath being poured out into the world has nothing to do with God's final judgement as that comes on the last day when Christ returns. What God sends down are His final chastisements, as severe as they will be, His patience and longsuffering will have come to an end at that time and He would hope that none should perish, but everyone would turn back to Him before the door of Salvation is closed forever when Christ returns. It's like giving everyone a last chance before it's to late.

Going back to your post # 68 Do not all believers in Christ who are of faith in Him make up His true Church as their is only one body with many members as Christ is the head of the body. There is only one resurrection when Christ returns as all who are in their graves will hear His voice to come forth in judgement. Those who are of faith in Christ will be raised and joined with those of faith who are still alive at His coming and will be caught up to Him in the air to be with Him for eternity. Those who died rejecting faith are raised to damnation.
Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21.

 

[Quantrill]

Not all of Israel are of Israel as the tribe of Dan and Ephraim have never repented of going after other gods as they still worship them even today and until Christ returns. God has saved 144,000 from the other 10 tribes up to a thousand generations that even now are returning back to Israel, Rev 7:1-8.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times as the wars continue so where are their rights with God who has abandoned those who are not His own. Even today Israel is ruled under a Roman government.

None of us deserve God's grace for we have all fallen short of His glory. It repented God that He created man as they all became sinful turning away from Him and God was about to destroy all of them by a flood, but found favor in only one in whom He spared, Genesis 6:6-8 from the flood. Grace pardons us as mercy loves us as God is patient that none should perish, but not everyone will return back to Him.

Concerning (Rom. 9:6), the statement, 'they are not all Israel, which are of Israel', does not imply that believing Gentiles become Jews or Israelites. It simply means not all who are Israelites are the people of God. They are not true Israel. True Israel is made up of believing Jews.

You seem to indicate that in (Rev. 7:1-8) that there are only 10 tribes listed that make up the 144,000. Yet 12 are listed. More to say concerning these, but why do you just say 10?

Concerning your continual use of the word 'rights' for Israel, my point was Israel never had 'rights' to be the people of God. God doesn't operate on a 'Bill of Rights'. God doesn't operate as America with it's Constitution. If Israel had it's rights, it would be destined for Hell. Just like the Church would if it had it's rights.

So, in post #(72) you said Israel lost her right to be called God's people. And you said the Jews were rejected as God's chosen people. Israel as a nation certainly has been rejected as the body from which believers of God are found today. That Body today is the Church and has been since Pentecost. But that in no way nullifies God's promises to Israel as was showed in (Jer. 31:31-37). And it is so stated in many other verses in Scripture. See (Rom. 9:25)

My point is God will be true to His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning the nation Israel. Not because of their rights, as they never had any. It will be because of His mercy and grace. These promises of God pertain to a nation of believing Jews, Israelites.

Church does 'not' become spiritual Israel. as though God is finished with Israel. The Church is the Church with Israel set aside at this time. The operation of God's kingdom on earth is at present implemented through the Gentiles, and the Church, not Israel. The believing Jews in Christ day knew they no longer were possessors of the Kingdom. See (Acts 1:6-7) Christ did not say the Kingdom would not be restored to Israel. He said it wasn't for them to know when.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

When I said you lack understanding I meant in the area of pretrib like I did at one time believing all those teachings. I never meant that you lacked knowledge in all areas of what the Bible teaches or that your studies are not deep. How would I know how you study or what or who you follow. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but to give that of what I have learned.

When I said I use to believe in pretrib it was because I was not very mature in the word being a new Christian back in the 80's and felt like I lacked knowledge because I could not see it in the scriptures they taught from. For many years I believed everything that came from the pulpit, but yet questioned many things that were not sitting well in my spirit as I could not see in the scriptures that of what they were teaching. Nothing was lining up with what was written in the scriptures. I was so confused and that's when I had to empty my head of all those teachings and start researching all of this for myself.

I wanted to believe in a pretrib and I wish it was true, especially in what I now know that must come first before Christ returns. It took me twenty years of intense digging into Revelations cross referencing between the OT prophecies about end times and what Christ taught in the NT about the end of days without using any commentaries or other books praying earnestly to the Holy Spirit to reveal all of this to me. The reason I teach against it is because I want others to be prepared for that which is to come during the seven trumpets, especially when the son of perdition takes his seat in Jerusalem deceiving the very elect of God if possible. I could only hope I am wrong in all of this, but scripture is to explicit as far as what God has given in great detail to the Prophets and Apostles to write as we also see history repeating itself even now with what is in the world.



This is the questioned I asked that seemed strange to you.

"What would be the purpose of God's great wrath being poured out into the world and that of the mark of the beast if we are already taken out before all this happens?"

God's seven trumpets of wrath being poured out into the world has nothing to do with God's final judgement as that comes on the last day when Christ returns. What God sends down are His final chastisements, as severe as they will be, His patience and longsuffering will have come to an end at that time and He would hope that none should perish, but everyone would turn back to Him before the door of Salvation is closed forever when Christ returns. It's like giving everyone a last chance before it's to late.

Going back to your post # 68 Do not all believers in Christ who are of faith in Him make up His true Church as their is only one body with many members as Christ is the head of the body. There is only one resurrection when Christ returns as all who are in their graves will hear His voice to come forth in judgement. Those who are of faith in Christ will be raised and joined with those of faith who are still alive at His coming and will be caught up to Him in the air to be with Him for eternity. Those who died rejecting faith are raised to damnation.
Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21.

I praise God for you and your studies in the Scriptures. There are similarities to your experience and mine. But of course mine differed in that my church was not really either Dispensational or Covenant Theology. The terms pre-trib or millennium would not be heard. A great place to be a new believer. But to one who started growing and studying the Scriptures, it failed to provide answers. And, for me, my studies directed me to the Dispensational teaching of the Bible.

Yes, I believe the Church is one Body of believers, both Jew and Gentile. But the Church had a beginning and has an end as to who is in it. I believe it starts at Pentecost and is complete at the Rapture. So concerning the book of (Revelation), the Church is no longer participating after (Rev. 3:22). And I believe the Rapture is implied in (Rev. 4:1-2) as John is then taken to Heaven. And the Church is not to be seen again until (Rev. 21:9), as the Bride and Wife of Christ.

Concerning the resurrection, I believe there is more than one. There is a first resurrection and another, or second resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5) The first always involves the believing. The second always involves the non-believers. In other words every resurrection spoken of in Scriptures is in these two resurrections. The first and second are to be seen as ordinal numbers and not cardinal. So the believing which were raised in (Matt. 27:52-53) were part of the first resurrection.

We are dealing with many topics here, all of which could be a thread of their own.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I want to correct something I said in my post #(82) in the last paragraph. I meant to say the Church does 'not' become spiritual Israel.

I can no longer edit it. Perhaps a moderator could. Thanks.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Concerning (Rom. 9:6), the statement, 'they are not all Israel, which are of Israel', does not imply that believing Gentiles become Jews or Israelites. It simply means not all who are Israelites are the people of God. They are not true Israel. True Israel is made up of believing Jews.

You seem to indicate that in (Rev. 7:1-8) that there are only 10 tribes listed that make up the 144,000. Yet 12 are listed. More to say concerning these, but why do you just say 10?

Concerning your continual use of the word 'rights' for Israel, my point was Israel never had 'rights' to be the people of God. God doesn't operate on a 'Bill of Rights'. God doesn't operate as America with it's Constitution. If Israel had it's rights, it would be destined for Hell. Just like the Church would if it had it's rights.

So, in post #(72) you said Israel lost her right to be called God's people. And you said the Jews were rejected as God's chosen people. Israel as a nation certainly has been rejected as the body from which believers of God are found today. That Body today is the Church and has been since Pentecost. But that in no way nullifies God's promises to Israel as was showed in (Jer. 31:31-37). And it is so stated in many other verses in Scripture. See (Rom. 9:25)

My point is God will be true to His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning the nation Israel. Not because of their rights, as they never had any. It will be because of His mercy and grace. These promises of God pertain to a nation of believing Jews, Israelites.

The Church does become spiritual Israel as though God is finished with Israel. The Church is the Church with Israel set aside at this time. The operation of God's kingdom on earth is at present implemented through the Gentiles, and the Church, not Israel. The believing Jews in Christ day knew they no longer were possessors of the Kingdom. See (Acts 1:6-7) Christ did not say the Kingdom would not be restored to Israel. He said it wasn't for them to know when.

Quantrill

Please do not read into something that was never said as I never said Gentiles become Jews. I have no idea where you got that from.

Now concerning the tribes of Israel in Rev 7:1-8.

Rev 7:1-8 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4.
Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

When I say "rights" I am in no wise meaning it as a "Bill of Rights". Do you not believe that Israel were God's chosen people in the beginning before the Gentiles were added to the branch?

 

[for_his_glory]

I want to correct something I said in my post #(82) in the last paragraph. I meant to say the Church does 'not' become spiritual Israel.

I can no longer edit it. Perhaps a moderator could. Thanks.

Quantrill

I changed it for you.

 

[for_his_glory]

I praise God for you and your studies in the Scriptures. There are similarities to your experience and mine. But of course mine differed in that my church was not really either Dispensational or Covenant Theology. The terms pre-trib or millennium would not be heard. A great place to be a new believer. But to one who started growing and studying the Scriptures, it failed to provide answers. And, for me, my studies directed me to the Dispensational teaching of the Bible.

Yes, I believe the Church is one Body of believers, both Jew and Gentile. But the Church had a beginning and has an end as to who is in it. I believe it starts at Pentecost and is complete at the Rapture. So concerning the book of (Revelation), the Church is no longer participating after (Rev. 3:22). And I believe the Rapture is implied in (Rev. 4:1-2) as John is then taken to Heaven. And the Church is not to be seen again until (Rev. 21:9), as the Bride and Wife of Christ.

Concerning the resurrection, I believe there is more than one. There is a first resurrection and another, or second resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5) The first always involves the believing. The second always involves the non-believers. In other words every resurrection spoken of in Scriptures is in these two resurrections. The first and second are to be seen as ordinal numbers and not cardinal. So the believing which were raised in (Matt. 27:52-53) were part of the first resurrection.

We are dealing with many topics here, all of which could be a thread of their own.

Quantrill

The true Church of Christ (not a four walled building) is one body of believers in Christ who are faithful to Him as He is the head of the body. It did have it's beginning on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

Rev 3:22 says nothing about the church not being here as it is written "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." This pertains to the seven churches in Asia in John's day during the visions Jesus gave him by the angel that was sent to him. But yet also given to the body of Christ today as instructions in righteousness that to him that overcomes will have a place with Christ in the New Jerusalem when He returns on the last day.

There is nothing implied in Rev 4:1-2 about John being taken up to heaven. I struggled with this verse for a long time as this is a go to pretrib teaching verse, but says nothing about a pretrib Rapture. This verse is what got me digging deeper into the Bible.

Rev Chapter 2-3 were instructions to the seven Churches in Asia issued by Jesus given to an angel to speak to these churches for edification and warnings of Gods chastisements and now in Rev 4:1-2 John sees a vision of a door opening before him. The first voice he heard speaking to him was that of great power and authority similar to the powerful sound a trumpet makes. The voice tells John to draw in closer to Gods Spirit to see the visions of those things that are yet future. After hearing this voice John was immediately overcome by the Holy Spirit and in this vision saw a throne was set in heaven and the Lord sat on it, Rev 1:10; Isaiah 6:1. John was not taken up to heaven, John 3:13, but was only caught up in the Spirit while he was on the isle of Patmos.

I want to add two more replies as they pertain to what you said about two resurrections and the Church being Raptured before the great tribulation. Please take your time reading through them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Only one resurrection, but to judgements per John 5:28, 29.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

Church throughout the revelations enduring unto the end per Matthew 24:13; 24:29-31

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as those who are anointed by God's Holy Spirit are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation, but only 3 1/2 years. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus as the Holy Spirit strenthens us to stand and endure until the coming of the Lord as God has a place prepared for us in the wilderness as His wrath passes over the earth, Rev 12:6. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chater 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Quantrill]

Please do not read into something that was never said as I never said Gentiles become Jews. I have no idea where you got that from.

Now concerning the tribes of Israel in Rev 7:1-8.

Rev 7:1-8 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4.
Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

When I say "rights" I am in no wise meaning it as a "Bill of Rights". Do you not believe that Israel were God's chosen people in the beginning before the Gentiles were added to the branch?

Ok. So you agree with me that Israel and the Church are distinct bodies of believers. The Church is not Israel. Thus the Church had a starting point...Pentecost. Correct?

Yes, you say they are from the twelve except from Dan and Ephraim. That makes 10. And you said 10. Post #(82). But twelve are given. So I am unclear what you are saying. It states that the 144,000 come from the twelve tribes of Israel, as listed. Do you agree?:

Of course I believe Israel was God's chosen people in the beginning. I explained it in post #(82). And I believe they are still God's chosen people. Just because they are rejected at this time and under the judgement of God, does not remove the promises of God to that nation. God will be faithful to them. He will fulfill all His promises to them. The Church does not replace them. The Church is another body of believers God is working through while Israel is set aside.

Well, as i said, Israel never had 'rights' to be the people of God. It is never a question of rights with God. The only reason we like to use the word 'rights' is because we in America have become so programmed that 'rights' are equal with God. Bill of rights. Civil rights. All is equated with good and holy and everything else is evil and hate. But God never gives us our rights. He gives us mercy and grace and He operates upon His faithfulness.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I changed it for you.

I appreciate it.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Only one resurrection, but to judgements per John 5:28, 29.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

You wrote much, but I need to get this clear before addressing it all. You said you agree that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. Does this mean you agree that the believers in Israel or prior to Israel, or after the Church, are not part of the Church?

There is no one resurrection. I showed you that there are two resurrections. One of the saved and one of the damned. They do not occur at the same time. (Rev. 20:4-5) Verse 5 is clear that there is a 1000 year difference between these two resurrections that are addressed. And there was a resurrection in ( Matt. 27:52-53). That is part of the first resurrection because it involves believers. And there will be a partial resurrection of Jews prior to the beginning of the 1000 year reign. (Dan. 12:1-2) (Is. 26:19-20) The Rapture involves the resurrection of the Church saints only. Not Israel.

There are only two classes of resurrection. The saved and the damned. The first and the second or other. These are ordinal numbers, not cardinal.

I do not see how you can place all these resurrections at the same time, when clearly they occur at different times.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Only one resurrection, but to judgements per John 5:28, 29.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

How can you say there is only one resurrection when (Rev. 20:4-5) clearly states that there is a 1000 year period between the two? But, of course, you say that it is not clear because it is just symbolic.

By what reasoning do you determine the 1000 year reign of Christ to be symbolic? Because the length of time is not mentioned anywhere else? On that reasoning, no one should have expected a virgin birth of Messiah.

Just because the book of (Revelation) uses symbols, doesn't mean it is too be interpreted symbolically. Why aren't the resurrections just symbolic? Why aren't the judgments just symbolic? God just wants us to know He loves us and wants us to do right....not. The Scripture is clear that there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth that we call the Millennial reign. There is no reason to deny the literalness of this.


Quantrill

 

[daninthelionsden]

I have no more to say, except that I'm confused about Rev. 6: 15.
What is your explanation about the "kings, great men, rich men, commanders, mighty men, every slave and every free man" hide in caves and rocks in mountains.

Doesn't that include All men? If so, then the believers are all gone. Where are they? (just wondering)

Take a highlighter and color code everywhere in Revelations the Lord speaks in one color, everywhere an angel speaks in another and so on where the saints or even where John narrates. This verse you mention falls outside any of those categories. These are worldly men. They have no authority whatsoever to declare anything other than their own demise. If Christ Himself knows not the Day of His coming, but only the Father, then what these men say means little to Christians other than the futile desperation of those in power as this world unravels (birth pangs).

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok. So you agree with me that Israel and the Church are distinct bodies of believers. The Church is not Israel. Thus the Church had a starting point...Pentecost. Correct?

Yes, you say they are from the twelve except from Dan and Ephraim. That makes 10. And you said 10. Post #(82). But twelve are given. So I am unclear what you are saying. It states that the 144,000 come from the twelve tribes of Israel, as listed. Do you agree?:

Of course I believe Israel was God's chosen people in the beginning. I explained it in post #(82). And I believe they are still God's chosen people. Just because they are rejected at this time and under the judgement of God, does not remove the promises of God to that nation. God will be faithful to them. He will fulfill all His promises to them. The Church does not replace them. The Church is another body of believers God is working through while Israel is set aside.

Well, as i said, Israel never had 'rights' to be the people of God. It is never a question of rights with God. The only reason we like to use the word 'rights' is because we in America have become so programmed that 'rights' are equal with God. Bill of rights. Civil rights. All is equated with good and holy and everything else is evil and hate. But God never gives us our rights. He gives us mercy and grace and He operates upon His faithfulness.

Quantrill

There is no more distinction between Jew and Gentile, Galatian 3:15-29; Romans 11:11-36; 15:1-21. God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

Rev 7:4-8 To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

 

[for_his_glory]

You wrote much, but I need to get this clear before addressing it all. You said you agree that the Church started on the day of Pentecost. Does this mean you agree that the believers in Israel or prior to Israel, or after the Church, are not part of the Church?

There is no one resurrection. I showed you that there are two resurrections. One of the saved and one of the damned. They do not occur at the same time. (Rev. 20:4-5) Verse 5 is clear that there is a 1000 year difference between these two resurrections that are addressed. And there was a resurrection in ( Matt. 27:52-53). That is part of the first resurrection because it involves believers. And there will be a partial resurrection of Jews prior to the beginning of the 1000 year reign. (Dan. 12:1-2) (Is. 26:19-20) The Rapture involves the resurrection of the Church saints only. Not Israel.

There are only two classes of resurrection. The saved and the damned. The first and the second or other. These are ordinal numbers, not cardinal.

I do not see how you can place all these resurrections at the same time, when clearly they occur at different times.

Quantrill

Sorry my replies are a little long, but I have to use the full context of many scriptures to explain that of my understanding in what I have written.

Rev 20:7-10

We read back in Rev chapter 6:9-11 about the souls under the altar waiting to be avenged. The fulfilling of this will have come at this time as their fellow servants have all died a martyr’s death. Those who are sitting on symbolic thrones are all those who have died a martyr’s death being servants of God as now they reign with Christ in judgment over the nations.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog to gather them together to battle the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. They are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after he is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9.

The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14:1, 2; Luke 21:20; Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

(IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

 

[Quantrill]

There is no more distinction between Jew and Gentile, Galatian 3:15-29; Romans 11:11-36; 15:1-21. God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

Rev 7:4-8 To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

There is no distinction in the 'Church' between Jew and Gentile. That is not the same thing, as I have said. The Church is not Israel.

Again, God did not give Israel 490 years to repent. He gave 490 years of judgement. (Daniel 9:24)

The point with (Rev. 7:4-8) is that 12 tribes of Israel are listed, 12 thousand from each tribe. Which makes 144,000 Jews which will be part of the nation Israel as it enters the Millennium. The number 10 plays no role. Whenever the tribes are listed, it is always 12.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Sorry my replies are a little long, but I have to use the full context of many scriptures to explain that of my understanding in what I have written.

Rev 20:7-10

We read back in Rev chapter 6:9-11 about the souls under the altar waiting to be avenged. The fulfilling of this will have come at this time as their fellow servants have all died a martyr’s death. Those who are sitting on symbolic thrones are all those who have died a martyr’s death being servants of God as now they reign with Christ in judgment over the nations.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog to gather them together to battle the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. They are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after he is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9.

The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14:1, 2; Luke 21:20; Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

(IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

But you didn't answer my question. You agreed that the Church started at Pentecost. Do you agree then that Israel prior to Pentecost was not the Church? Do you agree that the believers prior to Israel, were not part of Israel or the Church?

Even in your use of symbolic interpretation you cannot make the two resurrections the same. If there is a time period at all, between the two, they are not the same. And there is a time period. It is the same time as the millennial rule of Christ on earth, however long you want to symbolically say that is. It is the same time as satan is bound, no matter how long you say that is.

Unless of course the millennium is a symbol also. Is it? Is satan a symbol? These things must all occur at the exact same time for you to have your two resurrections.

(Rev. 20:4-5) is clear that there is a thousand years between these. And, (Matt. 27:52-53) is part of the first resurrection. As is (Dan. 12:1) (Is. 26:19-20)

Quantrill

 

[n2thelight]

what is the falling away? i see many things that points this at this very moment JESUS said because iniquity shall abound the love of many will wax cold .there are many theories on the son of perdition .

The son of perdition is non other than satan himself , perdition means one who parishes , satan is the only one by name already sentenced to death

 

[for_his_glory]

But you didn't answer my question. You agreed that the Church started at Pentecost. Do you agree then that Israel prior to Pentecost was not the Church? Do you agree that the believers prior to Israel, were not part of Israel or the Church?

Even in your use of symbolic interpretation you cannot make the two resurrections the same. If there is a time period at all, between the two, they are not the same. And there is a time period. It is the same time as the millennial rule of Christ on earth, however long you want to symbolically say that is. It is the same time as satan is bound, no matter how long you say that is.

Unless of course the millennium is a symbol also. Is it? Is satan a symbol? These things must all occur at the exact same time for you to have your two resurrections.

(Rev. 20:4-5) is clear that there is a thousand years between these. And, (Matt. 27:52-53) is part of the first resurrection. As is (Dan. 12:1) (Is. 26:19-20)

Quantrill

Before Pentecost there was no body of Christ Church) with He being the head of the body, so my answer is no, Israel was not the Church.

I already explained with scripture there is only one resurrection, but two different judgements when Christ returns on the last day, plus that of 1000 years so no need to give that again.