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Unveiled Secrets The Rapture

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For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


This passage should be where anyone starts, to understand the time of the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture.


Then we can expand the context from here to see a contextual pattern that will build an unshakable, irrefutable foundation of understanding concerning the coming of Christ Jesus, when He returns to gather His Church at the end of the age, in which He also destroys the wicked.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Let’s look at the word of the Lord and break down some things Paul is teaching.


  • This is the word of the Lord. It’s not from man, and overrules what any Bible teacher may be trying to teach, that is contrary.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord…

  • This passage involves the order of the resurrection and rapture timing, showing the resurrection occurs before the rapture.

…that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


  • This passage shows us that the rapture occurs at His coming.
…we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord




From this one passage we can begin to glean some important facts about this doctrine that will help to understand the timing of things associated with the rapture.



Do you agree so so far?






JLB
 
I have listened to Grant Jeffery in the past, but yet all theories without scriptural proof.
Reread this thread look how those that believe in "pre-trib" get talked about. Read how no one talked about "caught-up" before 1700-1830. Man I am SO HAPPY.. well I had forgotten that mans name just some white haired with glasses guy I THINK I saw on TBN talked about that same Hymn writer and showed the scrolls about "caught up"happening before the great trib. So we find one '“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins” Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373.

There you go this PROVES? Nothing other then pre-trib was talked about preached about. Its one reason I don't debate this. Most please no offense but most do not fully search. The ONLY time I bring up this Hymn writer was to say.. someone talked about it before 1830 <---that gets me made fun of.. not by the world but believers. Then so many post what they personally believe as facts and they are right your wrong. They way they read the word and what they came away with is the real truth. I can't do this. Pre mid post in each case at some point "speculation" it added. Like Jesus going back to His Fathers house. No no what that really means is Jesus is going back to His Fathers heart where He made a new home. I don't get that at all.. never heard it before. See words or verses that we know we do not fully understand someone has to tell us NO I KNOW.. not worth it. I don't make fun of them. I don't say PRE MID or POST is wrong. I can't find the verse for one of those.

Wrath of God.. my brother the OT along tells us its alway for the unrighteous. Lot had to be gone. Not one righteous could be there. Yet NOW God has changed.. now Gods wrath thats coming on the whole world .. now righteous can still be here and will see Gods wrath yet the word says we will never. Antichrist for some odd reason can not come out in the open.. seems SOMETHING that has more power then he is holding him back. Fallen away.. a word that we now BIBLES did once say "departure" not fallen away because its another meaning for that greek word. Just gets left out by post trib believers praise God. Yet for me could still mean the same.. or caught up. One of those.. hard to say it ONLY MEANS.. anyway way.. carry on. This is just what I believe.

I watch for Him today knowing today this moment might be it. I will never miss Him.. I am always watching.. those that are not and not believe.. He will take you anyway? Yeah.. . not putting my faith into some man about this that has no more INFO about the word of GOD or Hebrew/Greek then I can get/have. So I am ready now.. that thief that will come does not steal He comes and takes whats His. We all get a choice
 
Blade if one pretribber would show me scripture where we are caught up before the seven trumpets sound then I might consider my stance on this as even when I use to believe in pretrib rapture of the Church I just took these Pastors word for it as I thought I just wasn't understanding the scriptures they use.

I wish someone would answer my question in post #59 as I have been asking this for years and no one has ever answered it.
 
After this 3 1/2 year reign of this last antichrist being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5; 1 John 2:18-19, we read in Rev 19 starting with vs. 11 that this is the second coming of Christ as at that time we are gathered up to him to meet Him in the air as this is the last day and every will happen very quickly.
Which verse in chapter Rev 19 said we are gathered in the air to meet him ?
Let me ask you and all who believe in a pretrib Rapture.

What would be the purpose of God's great wrath being poured out into the world and that of the mark of the beast if we are already taken out before all this happens?
Do I believe in pretrib Rapture ? I believe it is one possibility . Ok , let's say we are still here when wrath and MOB is going on , what is the purpose that you see ? I am going to read your Revelation writings on this site very soon , I have read a little already :) .
I don't say PRE MID or POST is wrong. I can't find the verse for one of those.
I have heard it said " Hope for pre but prepare for post . "
 
Let me ask you and all who believe in a pretrib Rapture.

What would be the purpose of God's great wrath being poured out into the world and that of the mark of the beast if we are already taken out before all this happens?
Post 59 ^^^^^^
I wish someone would answer my question in post #59 as I have been asking this for years and no one has ever answered it.
I am still scratching my head and thinking , lol :confused. I guess that could be your point .
 
Which verse in chapter Rev 19 said we are gathered in the air to meet him ?

Right before Christ returns the great harlot and mystery Babylon will be destroyed, Rev 17, 18. The marriage supper of the Lamb follows after this with Christ returning in the air with His army of angels who are the host of heaven, Rev 19:11-14. He sends them out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are dead and still alive at His coming that are His own as we are then gathered up in the clouds to meet Him in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The marriage supper of the Lamb, meaning the dead in Christ and those still alive at His coming will be caught up to Christ as described in Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28,29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The timing has finally come as those who are Christ own through the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7, Romans 10:9, 10, have endured all things of this earth as they have overcome all the trials and temptations through Christ who overcame the world, John 16:33 will now see the kingdom of God.​
Do I believe in pretrib Rapture ? I believe it is one possibility . Ok , let's say we are still here when wrath and MOB is going on , what is the purpose that you see ? I am going to read your Revelation writings on this site very soon , I have read a little already :) .
First thank you for taking and interest in reading my book :) This is a little lengthy but this is how I see everything being played out in the end of days.

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem, 2Thessalonians 2:1-5, Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14. At this time many Christians will be taken captive that did not heed the warning to flee and if they will not denounce Christ and bow down and take the mark of this beast, who falsely claims peace and safety to all who takes its mark, they will die a martyr's death.

God's protection is absolute to those who are His own and escape into the wilderness as they trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the 3 1/2 years events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be a large asteroid as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.
 
Let me ask you and all who believe in a pretrib Rapture.

What would be the purpose of God's great wrath being poured out into the world and that of the mark of the beast if we are already taken out before all this happens?

I do hold to a pretrib Rapture.

Your question is strange to me. First, I would say God's judgement upon unbelieving Israel, and the world, does not require believers to be present.

Second of all, I would say, there will be believers on the world at that time. Just not the Church. There will be believing Israel, and believing Gentiles saved after the Rapture. They just are not part of the Church.

Quantrill
 
I do hold to a pretrib Rapture.

Your question is strange to me. First, I would say God's judgement upon unbelieving Israel, and the world, does not require believers to be present.

Second of all, I would say, there will be believers on the world at that time. Just not the Church. There will be believing Israel, and believing Gentiles saved after the Rapture. They just are not part of the Church.

Quantrill
That's your choice as I once believed, but not any more. My question is strange to you as you lack in this area of understanding as I did at one time. Possibly you read Revelations, but never really studied Revelations that spans from Genesis through out the whole of the Bible.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Christ true Church is made up of all who believe in Him and are Spiritually born again and baptized in the Baptism of Christ for the remission of sin and for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are the body (Church) of Christ with He being the head of the body.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Quantrill


Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. Therefore, our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her for this is how John would recognize it to be since all other nations were not yet developed in his time. Revelations is about all of us, Jew and Gentile, past, present and future that by faith keep Gods commandments. We are Gods witnesses that testify of His mercy and grace as we take His word out into the world to those who have ears to hear.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant, Rev 7:1-17), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

 
That's your choice as I once believed, but not any more. My question is strange to you as you lack in this area of understanding as I did at one time. Possibly you read Revelations, but never really studied Revelations that spans from Genesis through out the whole of the Bible.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Christ true Church is made up of all who believe in Him and are Spiritually born again and baptized in the Baptism of Christ for the remission of sin and for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We are the body (Church) of Christ with He being the head of the body.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Your use of the phrase "you lack in this area of understanding" is quite insulting. As I'm sure it was meant to be. No matter. Our differences are not a matter of 'lack'. They are a matter of different methods of Bible interpretation. In other words, I don't lack in an understanding of the book of (Revelation). I disagree with your method of interpretation of (Revelation). And the Bible. I am not saying, in an insulting way, that you lack in an understanding of Revelation, or the Bible. I am saying you interpret it differently.

Your verses in (John) are all good verses. I agree with them all.

I agree that we are the Church the Body of Christ. And your verses in (Ephesians) and (Galatians) speaks to the Church, the Body of Christ.

I addressed your question to 'all' as to the purpose of God's wrath on the world and the anti-christ if there were no believers in the world. Yet you don't address my answer.

Quantrill
 
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Quantrill


Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. Therefore, our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her for this is how John would recognize it to be since all other nations were not yet developed in his time. Revelations is about all of us, Jew and Gentile, past, present and future that by faith keep Gods commandments. We are Gods witnesses that testify of His mercy and grace as we take His word out into the world to those who have ears to hear.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant, Rev 7:1-17), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.


Israel has no 'right' to be called God's chosen people. God doesn't give His people their rights. God gives them His mercy and grace. Just like with me and you.

Israel is God's chosen because He says so. No other reason. And if God will not keep His promises to Israel, then why should He keep His promises to you? Answer: He shouldn't. Unless of course you deserve His love, His promises, His care. Do you?

Read (Jer. 31:31-37) God has made a covenant with Judah and Israel. God will perform it. If the sun and moon fail to give their light then Israel will no longer be His people. If heaven can be measured, and the foundation of the earth found out, then He will cast off Israel.

God is faithful, though His people are not. That is Israel's hope. That is your and my hope. Unless of course you feel you deserve it.

Quantrill
 
Your use of the phrase "you lack in this area of understanding" is quite insulting. As I'm sure it was meant to be.
By no means did I say this to insult you as I am not that kind of person and also said I lacked knowledge in this at one time myself until I started a deep study in the scriptures on this of pretrib. I have no idea how versed you are in Revelations, the prophecies of the OT, and history of all those different eras.
 
By no means did I say this to insult you as I am not that kind of person and also said I lacked knowledge in this at one time myself until I started a deep study in the scriptures on this of pretrib. I have no idea how versed you are in Revelations, the prophecies of the OT, and history of all those different eras.

Fair enough. Yet, you still are saying your 'understanding' is the product of 'deep study'. Meaning mine is not.

In other words, mine can be the product of deep study also. But we interpret the Bible differently.

The only way you could have changed your opinion on a pretrib rapture was to change your method of interpretation.

Quantrill
 
I addressed your question to 'all' as to the purpose of God's wrath on the world and the anti-christ if there were no believers in the world. Yet you don't address my answer.
I did address your answer in post # 69 and 70
 
Israel has no 'right' to be called God's chosen people. God doesn't give His people their rights. God gives them His mercy and grace. Just like with me and you.

Israel is God's chosen because He says so. No other reason. And if God will not keep His promises to Israel, then why should He keep His promises to you? Answer: He shouldn't. Unless of course you deserve His love, His promises, His care. Do you?

Read (Jer. 31:31-37) God has made a covenant with Judah and Israel. God will perform it. If the sun and moon fail to give their light then Israel will no longer be His people. If heaven can be measured, and the foundation of the earth found out, then He will cast off Israel.

God is faithful, though His people are not. That is Israel's hope. That is your and my hope. Unless of course you feel you deserve it.

Quantrill
Notice in Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Now go back and read Jeremiah chapter 3 and Malachi Chapter 2 as God divorced Israel as they ignored the ordnances of God, but God saved a remnant that were faithful to Him. God rebukes the Priest as they turned away from Him.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent and the 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D.

Rev 7:1-7

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4.
Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)
 
Fair enough. Yet, you still are saying your 'understanding' is the product of 'deep study'. Meaning mine is not.

In other words, mine can be the product of deep study also. But we interpret the Bible differently.

The only way you could have changed your opinion on a pretrib rapture was to change your method of interpretation.

Quantrill
I have no idea how you study scripture as well as you do not know how I study, but yet we will not always agree in how we understand them.

The reason I no longer agree with pretrib is that it is not found in scripture. I use to believe, but lacked a lot of knowledge back in the day and just took all those Pastors word for it thinking I just did not understand the scriptures they gave to support their teachings. That's when I first started taking notice of what was already written comparing that to their teachings and nothing seemed to line up with what they teach.
 
Notice in Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Now go back and read Jeremiah chapter 3 and Malachi Chapter 2 as God divorced Israel as they ignored the ordnances of God, but God saved a remnant that were faithful to Him. God rebukes the Priest as they turned away from Him.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent and the 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D.

Rev 7:1-7

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4.
Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

So, does Israel have it's rights with God? Do you? I notice you didn't answer. Do you deserve God's grace and mercy or not?

God divorcing Israel does not affect (Jer. 31:36). The 'seed of Israel' as a nation will continue due to God's faithfulness. The relationship as a wife to Jehovah is affected. But not His promises to Israel as a nation. (Jer. 31:33-34).

But, God will restore this unfaithful nation, this unfaithful wife, to Himself. (Hosea 2:1-13) (Hosea 2:14-23) Does that bother you?

Concerning (Mal. 2), yes God will judge Israel. I have not said differently. But God will not abandon Israel. (Mal. 3-4)

No, God gave Israel 490 years of judgement. Seven of which are left unfulfilled.

What makes you place the 144,000 of the house of Israel under the Old Covenant?

Quantrill
 
I have no idea how you study scripture as well as you do not know how I study, but yet we will not always agree in how we understand them.

The reason I no longer agree with pretrib is that it is not found in scripture. I use to believe, but lacked a lot of knowledge back in the day and just took all those Pastors word for it thinking I just did not understand the scriptures they gave to support their teachings. That's when I first started taking notice of what was already written comparing that to their teachings and nothing seemed to line up with what they teach.

Well, that is strange. You said I lack understanding. You said your study is deep and implied mine is not. Yet now you say you have no idea how I study the Scripture. ???

Sorry, but your 'knowledge' is based upon your method of interpretation of Scripture, just as mine is. You say you used to be pre-trib, but that was not based upon your knowledge because you just believed whatever someone else told you.

As I said before, you had to have changed your method of interpretation. What caused that? What made you believe the allegorical/metaphorical/spiritual method of interpretation was true as opposed to the literal method of interpretation.

Don't tell me it is when you finally understand the Scripture. For I understand the Scripture and disagree with you. What or who changed your mind?

Quantrill
 
So, does Israel have it's rights with God? Do you? I notice you didn't answer. Do you deserve God's grace and mercy or not?

God divorcing Israel does not affect (Jer. 31:36). The 'seed of Israel' as a nation will continue due to God's faithfulness. The relationship as a wife to Jehovah is affected. But not His promises to Israel as a nation. (Jer. 31:33-34).

But, God will restore this unfaithful nation, this unfaithful wife, to Himself. (Hosea 2:1-13) (Hosea 2:14-23) Does that bother you?

Concerning (Mal. 2), yes God will judge Israel. I have not said differently. But God will not abandon Israel. (Mal. 3-4)

No, God gave Israel 490 years of judgement. Seven of which are left unfulfilled.

What makes you place the 144,000 of the house of Israel under the Old Covenant?

Quantrill
Not all of Israel are of Israel as the tribe of Dan and Ephraim have never repented of going after other gods as they still worship them even today and until Christ returns. God has saved 144,000 from the other 10 tribes up to a thousand generations that even now are returning back to Israel, Rev 7:1-8.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times as the wars continue so where are their rights with God who has abandoned those who are not His own. Even today Israel is ruled under a Roman government.

None of us deserve God's grace for we have all fallen short of His glory. It repented God that He created man as they all became sinful turning away from Him and God was about to destroy all of them by a flood, but found favor in only one in whom He spared, Genesis 6:6-8 from the flood. Grace pardons us as mercy loves us as God is patient that none should perish, but not everyone will return back to Him.
 
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