Virginity testing.

[felix]

The fatal flaw in the argument that the bible somehow teaches that sex automatically makes two people "married" is that there would then be no fornication, only adultery. Yet, while I've never seen any clear teaching that equates having sex with automatically being married, I do know of Scriptures that teach that one should not be a fornicator.

Here is the teaching you are after:

Heb 13:4 Marriage [is] honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
1Cor 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make [them] members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body [with her?] For [ "the two,"] He says, [ "shall become one flesh."]
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Having sex means automatically married, including a harlot. Just because a culture is filled with fornication and adulterers, does't mean God has to fit it. His standards are extremely high which are clearly taught by Him.

 

[farouk]

Here is the teaching you are after:

Heb 13:4 Marriage [is] honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
1Cor 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make [them] members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body [with her?] For [ "the two,"] He says, [ "shall become one flesh."]
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Having sex means automatically married, including a harlot. Just because a culture is filled with fornication and adulterers, does't mean God has to fit it. His standards are extremely high which are clearly taught by Him.

...but in faith it can be repented of.

And the repentant and forgiven must be able to move on, cleansed.

This is central to the Gospel.

 

[matt041187]

Anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery

 

[Classik]

Why would some even need a virgin? [It's very good]. And why are some not bothered about it? [Perhaps some don't want dull moments].

 

[Classik]

2 Sam 13 NIV

13 Now David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Tamar. And Amnon, her half brother, fell desperately in love with her. 2 Amnon became so obsessed with Tamar that he became ill. She was a virgin, and Amnon thought he could never have her.
3 But Amnon had a very crafty friend—his cousin Jonadab. He was the son of David’s brother Shimea. [ a ] 4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a kinglook so dejected morning after morning?”
So Amnon told him, “I am in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”
5 “Well,” Jonadab said, “I’ll tell you what to do. Goback to bed and pretend you are ill. When your father comes to see you, ask him to let Tamar come and prepare some food for you. Tell him you’ll feel better if she prepares it as you watch and feeds you with her own hands.”
6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be sick. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him, “Please let my sister Tamar come and cook my favorite dish [ b ] as I watch. Then I can eat it from her own hands.” 7 So David agreed and sent Tamar to Amnon’s house to prepare some food for him.
8 When Tamar arrived at Amnon’s house, she went to the place where he was lying down so hecould watch her mix some dough. Then she baked his favorite dish for him. 9 But when she set the serving tray before him, he refused to eat. “Everyone get out of here,” Amnon told his servants. So they all left.
10 Then he said to Tamar, “Now bring the food into my bedroom and feed it to me here.” So Tamar took his favorite dish to him. 11 But as she was feeding him, he grabbed her and demanded, “Come to bed with me, my darling sister.”
12 “No, my brother!” she cried. “Don’t be foolish! Don’t do this to me! Such wicked things aren’t done in Israel. 13 Where could I go in my shame? And you would be called one of the greatest foolsin Israel. Please, just speak to the king about it, and he will let you marry me.”
14 But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her, and since hewas stronger than she was, he raped her. 15 Thensuddenly Amnon’s love turned to hate, and he hated her even more than he had loved her. “Get out of here!” he snarled at her.
16 [SIZE=+2]“No, no!” Tamar cried. “Sending me away now is worse than what you’ve already done to me.”
But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her.[/SIZE] 17 He shouted for his servant and demanded, “Throw this woman out, and lock the door behind her!”

 

[Classik]

verse 16 is very important: Now that we've gotten married, please do not divorce me. This is my paraphrase. Tamar was raped by the brother, Amnon.

 

[farouk]

verse 16 is very important: Now that we've gotten married, please do not divorce me. This is my paraphrase. Tamar was raped by the brother, Amnon.

I think in contemporary language it might be put, instead, paraphrasing: 'Do the decent thing and marry me.'

 

[Classik]

Verse 16. I believe they were already married after the rape

 

[farouk]

Verse 16. I believe they were already married after the rape

and ...applicable to the church? to Gentiles?

 

[felix]

...but in faith it can be repented of.

And the repentant and forgiven must be able to move on, cleansed.

This is central to the Gospel.

Repentance does not mean they are divorced from the previous union which God had joined, so that they can marry someone else. Certain things in life cannot be reverted and marriage through premarital sex is one such thing. If you think, you can become a virgin again by repentance, then you are greatly mistaken. Forgiveness does not mean they don't have consequences. God forgave David for his adulterous sin but still killed the illegitimate son of him and his son did the same before all Israel according to the word of God. The same is happening today, what parents did, children today are continuing to do 10 times more only to blaspheme God among the pagans and unbelievers.

 

[felix]

and ...applicable to the church? to Gentiles?

1Cor 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make [them] members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body [with her?] For [ "the two,"] He says, [ "shall become one flesh."]

Is 1Cor 6:15-16 not applicable to the church ?

 

[iLOVE]

If premaritial sex is a sin (and I believe it is) and one has asked for and received forgiveness for that sin (which all in Christ will be) and God promises that He will forgive our sins and remember them no more (Isa 43:25, Heb 8:12, 10:17), then why would the church, who is to be submissive to God as a wife to her husband, remember the sin's her Husband chooses to forget?

I agree with you. Under this new covenant God says believe I have been merciful to your unrighteousness, and your sins and your iniquities will I remember no more. If you believe God says, He can then write on our hearts and our minds. He can then speak to us, lead us, guide us, heal us, and change our desires [Hebrews 10:15-18].

Notice in Revelation 21:8 who will be thrown into the lake of fire first for being fearful. Not believing Hebrews 10:15-18, you are rejecting Jesus and your salvation is not secure.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[farouk]

1Cor 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make [them] members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body [with her?] For [ "the two,"] He says, [ "shall become one flesh."]

Is 1Cor 6:15-16 not applicable to the church ?

f:

I think you are talking about something different.

Joe and Mary are Christians in a Bible believing local church and they want to get married. Joe learns that Mary, from the time before she was converted, is not a virgin, but they are both converted and love and serve the Lord and they want to serve Him together. It's hard to think that Mary either can't marry at all, or else has to go get a fictitious 'divorce' from someone she's not married to anyway.

Or else Mary learns that Joe had experiences with another woman before he was converted. It's hard to believe that Joe can either never get married or else has to go get a fictitious 'divorce' from someone he's not married to anyway.

We aren't even talking about remarriage here of divorced persons. Rather, of sin repented of, which occurred before the person was converted.

It's hard to imagine that somehow they can't get married, because what can practical forgiveness and the experience of the grace of God mean otherwise?

 

[handy]

As for Tamar and Amnon, Tamar and Amnon could not be married after her rape because Leviticus 20:17 forbids a man to marry his sister. However, an unmarried woman could live with her brother without social stigma.

Tamar was forever ruined by Amnon. In a society where marriage was the only option available for a woman, Amnon did the one thing that would forever keep Tamar from being able to be married. If he at least took care of her, allowing her to live in his household, she could at least hide from the shame and have a lower place in society, but he cast her out making it impossible for her to be established anywhere.

If sex automatically means marriage, then any woman who is sexually abused by either her brother or her father (which happens quite often) are then "married in the eyes of God" when it is God who forbids men to marry either their daughters or sisters? That sets up a contradiction in Scriptures that cannot be reconciled. However, sex does not equate to marriage in the Scriptures. Joining one's body with a harlot is sin, but not because it causes one to be married to the harlot. Unless, of course, we are saying that God deliberately sent Hosea to sin.

So, does God command His prophets to sin?
Does God say that a brother must marry his sister (or a man his daughter) if he rapes her? But forbids it otherwise?

No.

All these very weird contradictions simply vanish if we can get it through our heads that fornication does not equal marriage.

 

[farouk]

handy:

I think your reference to Hosea there is also very compelling.

What patience, love, grace and a forgiving spirit that the Lord was teaching Hosea there!

Like in the example given, above: Joe and Mary are Christians in a Bible believing local church and they want to get married. Joe learns that Mary, from the time before she was converted, is not a virgin, but they are both converted and love and serve the Lord and they want to serve Him together. It's hard to think that Mary either can't marry at all, or else has to go get a fictitious 'divorce' from someone she's not married to anyway.

If Mary is repentant and forgiven, and Joe truly loves her (or maybe it's the other way round with the erring person; or maybe it's both of them), then the fact that Mary isn't a virgin, shouldn't prevent Joe from marrying her.

Blessings.

 

[felix]

f:

I think you are talking about something different.

Joe and Mary are Christians in a Bible believing local church and they want to get married. Joe learns that Mary, from the time before she was converted, is not a virgin, but they are both converted and love and serve the Lord and they want to serve Him together. It's hard to think that Mary either can't marry at all, or else has to go get a fictitious 'divorce' from someone she's not married to anyway.

Or else Mary learns that Joe had experiences with another woman before he was converted. It's hard to believe that Joe can either never get married or else has to go get a fictitious 'divorce' from someone he's not married to anyway.

We aren't even talking about remarriage here of divorced persons. Rather, of sin repented of, which occurred before the person was converted.

It's hard to imagine that somehow they can't get married, because what can practical forgiveness and the experience of the grace of God mean otherwise?

Yes I agree on your situation .. e.g., Rahab.

However, if the sin happened after the conversion, then it is clearly adultery.

 

[farouk]

Yes I agree on your situation .. e.g., Rahab.

However, if the sin happened after the conversion, then it is clearly adultery.

Even then, if there is true repentance, there can be forgiveness and the other spouse's conduct in response should reflect this, giving glory to God.

 

[felix]

If sex automatically means marriage, then any woman who is sexually abused by either her brother or her father (which happens quite often) are then "married in the eyes of God" when it is God who forbids men to marry either their daughters or sisters? That sets up a contradiction in Scriptures that cannot be reconciled. However, sex does not equate to marriage in the Scriptures. Joining one's body with a harlot is sin, but not because it causes one to be married to the harlot.

So, without marriage, two can be joined as one body? So, what is marriage then and how does it differ from "they are no longer two but one"?

Unless, of course, we are saying that God deliberately sent Hosea to sin.
So, does God command His prophets to sin?

That is not a sin to Hosea but to show how abominable it is for God to be with Israel as His wife which ultimately led God to divorce Israel.

Does God say that a brother must marry his sister (or a man his daughter) if he rapes her? But forbids it otherwise?

God didn't say the brother must marry his sister but rather the raper be cut off from the assembly as in Lev 18:26. In Tamar's case, she shouted and refused, thus, she does not bear the sin or guilt but his brother who raped will bear the sin.

All these very weird contradictions simply vanish if we can get it through our heads that fornication does not equal marriage.

There are no contractions... What made you think Lev 18 doesn't address these ?

 

[felix]

Even then, if there is true repentance, there can be forgiveness and the other spouse's conduct in response should reflect this, giving glory to God.

After the conversion and knowing Christ, it is deliberate.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

It seems a worse punishment than death for such deliberate acts according to Paul.

No matter how you justify, adultery and children of adultery cannot be changed. The sin will be forgiven as God forgave David, but this does not mean He did not question his generation. What David did, is followed his own sons before his very eyes, inspite of God saying his sins are forgiven. This is the same case here for repentance as well. He will surely forgive their sins, but their child and/or generation will do the same thing (even before their very eyes) and bear the shame as the consequence of their deliberate act after conversion.

Ezek 11:19-21 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. But [as for those] whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord GOD.

The verse often quoted for new covenant also includes a ending part often overlooked. For all who follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, God will recompense their deeds on their own heads.

 

[Deborah13]

All these very weird contradictions simply vanish if we can get it through our heads that fornication does not equal marriage.

I agree with you. I came to this conclusion because of Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well.

John 4:18

King James Version (KJV)

<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.


I would say the comparison between husbands and the one she HAST (to have as in a close relationship) is not her husband is pretty clear as to what her relationship was to this last man. Jesus did not consider them married.

By the same scripture we see that He did not consider her still married to any of the five before.