daddd
Member
Great. You do realize most believers are niether Jews nor very familiar with the intricasies of their traditions or culture?
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Was 1948 when God restored Israel?
- Thread starter daddd
- Start date
Shilohsfoal
Member
Scripture says the nations bring them back.Unless you believe the nations are God.No
Isaiah 14:2
Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the LORD’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.
Have you figured out why Israel will reign over the nations in the Lord's land or have you given up?
Your post is perhaps not as well worded as it could have been. I guess that you mean what I call Israel 2 people, Israel 1 being Jacob-Israel. His ethnic sons (and their descendants) took over the title. Later, Yeshua became—IMHO, Israel 3, creating Israel 4 (the church). Connecting all the dots is not something I’ll attempt here: Steve H Hakes’ “Israel’s Gone Global”, attempts the lines.
Personally, I think that the covenant(s) Israel 2 had, totally ended with the cross. Thus although a State of Israel can look back to significant dates such as 1948, I’d not ascribe such to God, nor claim that he protects it.
Apropos Rm.11:26, etc, I think Paul’s drift was that ‘all ethnic Israel’ could be saved into the church through messiah (Level 3 salvation), as Paul himself had been and encouraged them to be. Rabbis defined ‘all Israel’ as excluding the spiritually base of that people. I do not hold that there will ever be a supernatural conversion to Christ of all individuals whom God still considers genetic descendants of Jacob’s sons. I hold that many righteous-seeking ethnic Jews (of the remnant of the greater ethnic people-group Israel) have over the millennia been ‘saved’ into the church, and that ultimately many more who never were Christians, will be saved into heaven (Level 4 salvation).
daddd
Member
So after Israel gets saved in the end, God restores them and does so at least in part by having nations bring them back. Anything else? Surely you are not trying to say that happened in 1948? We also know that when He restores them He destroys their enemies, is King over them, etc etc. I am not sure how anyone could imagine that happened already.
When?
Isaiah 14:3
And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Isaiah 14:5
The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
Isaiah 14:7
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Isaiah 14:8
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
So it is clear when the passages about Israel are set. The future, obviously. Lots of fellers come against them almost daily!
Why else does any believer help Jesus rule? He says we will rule with Him. The believers in the end from Israel will also rule with us. You thought that was some puzzle?
daddd
Member
Right. Too late to change it now
So it becomes a game of defining Israel rather than just generally accepting that the Jews as the bible calls them are what we think of as Israel. You know, the guys who started a country over in the mid east?
OK, so your vote in the matter is that God did not restore them already. I guess you feel they restored their little selves, basically. I tend to agree, but of course God allowed it and knew it would happen.
Yes they woulda coulda shoulda. But God knows they are stubborn. So He arranged a special time in the end so that no matter how obstinate they are, they will say uncle. That does not include the Jews who get saved. They already said uncle the easy way.
Even before Jesus came to earth not all Israel was Israel. God still required belief and the heart to be right.
I do. That is the ones left alive! Since the vast majority of them will be killed by the evil king in the end that will only be a remnant. It will still be 'all Israel' though. I find it kind of sad. If Israel only knew that today before the night fell they could cry out to Jesus their Messiah and He would save them and destroy all their enemies in a literal sense, etc etc!! But He knows they will not. Imagine all the nukes and weapons they would not need, and armies, and wars etc.
Anyone of any race that accepts and believes Jesus is saved and part of the Bride. He is no respecter of persons. The thing is that there are special promises for Israel regarding the land. Those promises are not for me. I don't want that land, thank you very much. I am happy Jesus and us will rule from there along with the (saved) Jews who live there one day. I am also tickled pink that it seems likely we will live up in New Jerusalem and just commute down to the work of helping Him rule earth here.
Shilohsfoal
Member
No,you still don't get it.Israel.reigns over the nations.Not with them.If you are of the nations in the Lord's land,then Israel will reign over you.
Isaiah 14:2
Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the LORD’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors
It all goes back to my first post.But you didn't understand it.
Shilohsfoal
Member
The promised land was promised to Abraham and his seed which is Christ.
Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
Mathew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Actually,I have an interest in traveling east to the kingdom of heaven at the right time.
May 14, 1948 is the day that God established back in roughly 585 B.C.
However, the terms of their total and ultimate correction were established about 800 years before that.
God is still using His people.
God bless,
Ted
daddd
Member
I never said with them. I said they also reign with us over the world with Jesus.
Only because they get saved and Jesus arranges that. After all, guess who rules the nations then?
And they will (and we also) rule in love. Of course they are male and female what did you think they were?
What I do not understand is why you parrot this over and over. Are you not capable of realizing it was answered or to pose a simple question if you think it was not?
daddd
Member
And from it we will rule with Him. When Israel is attacked in the end time it is not some Christian seed being attacked. It is the nation of Israel. We are Raptured before Israel repents in the end. So we come back with Jesus to rule. The newly saved Jews will be restored to the land and help rule for the 1000 years. It is not one or the other here. Jesus keeps all His promises, both to us and them.
We are the children of Abraham by faith because we also believe and have faith. We are not the people or nation of Israel.
That happens after Jesus returns. (or also if we die and go to be with Him in heaven)
No matter where you are when you die and go to heaven it won't be on foot. If you are saved then you will be ruling with Jews and Jesus in world with HQ being Jerusalem. That time is after we return to earth.
daddd
Member
Verse?
I take it you mean the Jews? He can use the saved Jews. I haven't seen Him use Israel so much. You?
Shilohsfoal
Member
No ,they don't reign with you over the world.
They reign over the nations in the Lord's land.
Isaiah 14:2
Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the LORD’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors
The scripture says nothing about the world .It's talking about Israel reigning over the nations in the Lord's land.
Anyways,the reason why Israel reigns over the nations in the Lord's land is.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
I told you why Israel reigns over the nations I the Lord's land was in revelation.
Now of you just figure out what the beast with seven heads and ten horns is,you would understand what the remnant of Israel overcomes .
Shilohsfoal
Member
Really,you believe you will rule with those who are killed for their testimony of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or it's image nor recieved its mark?Where exactly are you in this verse?
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
daddd
Member
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
That only ever happens when Jesus returns. Jesus will be ruling. So will His Bride and Israel who gets saved.
No idea what that means.
In other words you have an opinion about what it is and want a drumroll to make it seem important. Seriously?
Since I am of a lineage .my family has traced it's origins to Siberia Russia .
I have that for sure and the rabbis then wouldn't marry a goy to a jew.
Where exactly is isreal then when it obeys the command to repent and not obligated to eat kosher or follow the shabat ?
Because many of my surname bearers do believe ,some have died (dad,my great uncle ,brother to my grandma,my aunt believes and Is fluent in Hebrew )
daddd
Member
The way saved Jews in the end will honor the sabbath day or anything else will be in relation to Jesus.
Shilohsfoal
Member
So you believe you are suffering because of Christ?
Your in tribulation?
We're you also put to death for your testimony of Jesus as well?
Where are you mentioned in this verse?
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
So isreal is a church of Jewish origins .
Where is Jesus words saying that he will come back to redeem souls ?
All his words say ,I'm coming back be ready and the only way is to be repenting .
The first advent is the son of Benjamin ,the second advent is the son of David .
The latter conquers and takes no prisoners .those not with him are judged then and there .
I don't see God removing a church to put a new church to then have a thousand years to have said centrally located church in Jerusalem to win souls.
While there is a grey area on the city Satan attacks and also the length of a thousand years ,and the abyss .I don't see that .
There is also the times of the gentiles as well.often futurism uses verses that don't say that
When you see Jerusalem surrounded by her enemies know that your redemption draweth nigh ,the same chapter says the Jews will be taken captive .
Then the problem or the third temple since it mentions the random offerings ,a prince not a king offering for the sins of the land and people,circumcision is required ,and the only priests allowed in is the sons of zadok .
Levi ,most Jews with the last name Cohen,kohn,kohen have a possible genetic link to levi but no way of knowing what the zadok lineage is.
So I am skeptical of futurism .the fate of isreal and it's existence I am tied to .but that is another thread and hard to explain .most Jews that are saved have said the same.i know a saved Orthodox jewess whose son in law and his family celebrate peshac each year.she recited the prayers for a church wife peshac
daddd
Member
Perhaps a simple English translation might put it in perspective for you.
Contemporary English Version
If we don't give up, we will rule with him. If we deny that we know him, he will deny that he knows us.
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
That verse is about folks who died in the future. Why would we be there?
Daniel 7:27
Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him."
1 Corinthians 6:1-3
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
Revelation 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Revelation 22:5
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Your jumping around like you couldn't comprehend the question.I said where are you in this verse?
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Are you found here or not?