Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Kermos]

hawkman gordon777 Runningman Johann!@# JLB wondering
Walpole Carry_Your_Name Tenchi Corinth77777 eframe

My faithful God says "I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine" (Isaiah 43:1)!

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account​

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which means that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Presenting an event driven review of Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) and the creation account and more recorded in Genesis:

• See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".
• See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).
• See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).
• See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free will adherent claim of "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[journeyman]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation

I believe people have always had free will. When Paul talks about man being in sin and not able to seek God, he doesn't mean people are incapable of finding or pleasing God. He means people who love sin can't see God. Those "who are in the flesh." In other words, they choose not to repent. Why is that perplexing?

Kermos,
Have you ever thought about how God "hardens" the hearts of people? He often softens peoples hearts the exact same way.

 

[journeyman]

Forgot to add, just because God said he will harden someone, it doesn't mean he didn't want them to repent or do enough to make them consider and repent, but they chose not to.

 

[Kermos]

Post 282 was edited by someone other than me to remove the term "free-willian" from post 282, and the associated alert notification read:

​

Your post in the thread Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation? was edited. Reason: The derogatory phrase "free-willian" will no longer be tolerated.​

​

 

[Hidden In Him]

Post 282 was edited by someone other than me to remove the term "free-willian" from post 282, and the associated alert notification read:

​

Your post in the thread Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation? was edited. Reason: The derogatory phrase "free-willian" will no longer be tolerated.​

​

That is correct, and if you have issues with this decision you need to take it up with staff. Any further use of the term will result in immediate deletion, and you being temporarily banned from this thread.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Not willing is a choice to disobey.

What kind of will did Adam have that made him choose to obey the voice as a stranger a creature seen and not that of the voice of the unseen God?. Did he even have a will . Did he hunger?. . Who told him to eat or multiply or ladies first. The spirit of anarchy? the spirit of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

 

[Kermos]

Now that it is established that a person who thinks that God is incapable of control over God's domain, then such a person has a very small view of God as shown in post #277, a response to your post #151 in which you conveyed that you believe God is not sovereign over all Heaven and Earth and all that is in them, now moving on to your subsequent point in post #151.

??? If a fit, trim man sits down at a restaurant and eats an entire, loaded pizza, has he revealed that, all along, he has really been a fat, unfit man? Obviously not.

Your analogical comparison is flawed, both spiritually and logically.

Logically, you example breaks down in comparison to Adam. You specifically establish that your man is initially a "fit, trim man", but, in contrast, the Word of God specifically establishes that Adam was initially evil with "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18).

Spiritually, you neglected to establish a spiritual condition for your "fit, trim man", but, in contrast, Scripture establishes that Adam was flesh, "flesh of my flesh" (Genesis 2:23) said Adam, and of the flesh, the Apostle Paul wrote " "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

Perhaps God will bring me back to reply to more of your post, or God might have me move on to others.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Kermos]

Kermos, I've told you that I can handle one thought at a time.
This is just too much and would take more than an hour.
I'll go thru it quick, but I want to tell you that I'm willing to discuss, but one idea at a time.
Sorry.

I chose you.
Jesus is talking to the Apostles.
HE chose THEM.

The Word of God conveys "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) to all us believers in all time, but you convey "you Apostles did not choose Me, but the unconverted world can choose Me, and I chose only you Apostles".

The Word of God conveys "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation) to all us believers in all time, but you convey "I chose only you Apostles out of the world".

The Word of God conveys "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all us believers in all time, but you convey "What I say to you Apostles I say to only you Apostles".

The Apostle Peter pronounced among the disciples "'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias" (Acts 1:21-23), so both Matthias as well as Joseph were an included part of Lord Jesus Christ's audience when He declares that God chooses people not people choosing God during the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17, but you convey "'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias" - you must strike out Matthias and Joseph to satisfy your conveyance.

We've been through this before and I won't repeat this again.
Check out some commentaries.

John 15:16 Commentaries: "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

The Sovereign Lord says His voice is joyful treasure with "the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 10:3-4) while at the same time the One True Sovereign God, our Good Shepherd of us sheep, says that we heed not other voices, such as your vaunted man's commentaries that you repeatedly preach.

I don't want man's commentaries. The Word of God gives me all I need. Your fruit is that you embrace man's commentaries (you admit to repeating your commentary attraction in your post). Every single Christian is "appointed" by our Lord and God to "go and bear fruit" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

"Long for the pure milk of the Word" (1 Peter 2:2)

It says GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit.
And yes, our heart is cleansed BY FAITH.

The Sovereign God chooses each and every person who believes in the Son whom the Father has sent because the Word of God says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

What comes first?
Practicing the truth and then coming to the light....

Or does the above say that we come to the light first and then practice the truth?

It says that those that practice the truth will come to the light.
They have nothing to hide and will not stay in the darkness.
They want their good works to be seen and to glorify God so that those who see will
know that the good works have been done through God. (God's power).

Of course!
We can do nothing without the help of the Holy Spirit.
I've said this all along.
You're repeating now.

The Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) remains the same, regardless of the order you express with "What comes first", the Sovereign Lord certainly pronounces that God wrings each and every one of us Christians working the good deed of “practices the Truth” as well as God wrings each and every one of us Christians working the good deed of “comes to the Light” (John 3:21).

Jesus makes no allusion to man's desire/want as a controlling factor for good deeds/works as you have conveyed regarding John 3:21, yet your heart binds man's desires/wants into John 3:21 as a controlling factor - see your "They want their good works to be seen" sentence.

You are reducing the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) lesser while you are increasing the power of man greater with your conveying that “he who practices the Truth as having been wrought in man comes to the Light, so that his deeds of coming to the Light may be manifested as having been wrought in God”, and that is woefully illegitimate (Matthew 15:9, Matthew 12:37).

The Almighty and Awesome Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21), so God alone controls the good works of us saints.

continued to post #291

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #290

We are born again, as you state, THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST.
If Jesus had not resurrected, neither will we resurrect.

wondering, the Sovereign King Jesus decrees, as shown in the post to which you replied, that we Christians are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:8), but you wrote "We are born again, as you state, THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST", so in effect you convey that Christians are “born of the Resurrection” not the Holy Spirit of God as Lord Jesus declares.

John 11:25-26
24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus asked Martha if she believed this.
She had to believe it on her own.

If Jesus did not experience the resurrection, then neither will we.
1 Corinthians 15

Whoa there wondering, Lord Jesus says to Martha and asks "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26), but you convey a significantly different saying "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes on his own initiative in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes on his own initiative in Me will never die. Do you believe this according to your own initiative?" which places you out of accord with the Lord Who declares people can "not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

As further evidence of you being out of accord with the Lord, Lord Jesus says the believe inside of Martha as mentioned by Jesus (John 11:26) is the work of God, that is, Martha's faith/belief is caused by God alone because Jesus says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Matthew 11:25 does NOT state what you think it does.
God has REVEALED to babes....
It doesn't say He CAUSED them to believe what He revealed.

This saying of Jesus does "say He CAUSED them to believe what He revealed" with His blessed words of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Additionally, this saying of Jesus does "say He CAUSED them to" repent based upon "what He revealed" to babes with “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25) because the babes would be just like those intelligent people mentioned by Jesus in the self-same passage without God’s imparted revelation.

wondering, see that where God had me put in "repent" you changed into your replacement word of "believe" as a distinct misrepresentation, so continuing on with repentance.

The apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words (Matthew 11:25) with their saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

Clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).

Agreed.

You just "Agreed" that a person cannot love God without God causing the person to love God (1 John 4:7, 1 John 4:16); therefore, a person whom God has not caused the person to love God - such a person cannot righteously love the One True God.

If we could have either the will of Adam or the will of Christ,
it means we can chose which will we prefer to live by.

"If we could have either the will of Adam or the will of Christ," then it means a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) is self-helplessly separated from God (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) as well as the person is incapable of choosing God unto the person self-delivering from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Romans 8:7-8) because choosing God results the person's selfish self-glorification, while on the other hand, it means a person chosen by God (John 15:16) to be born of God (John 3:3-8) is the person caused by God to bear the image of Christ's will (Romans 8:29) is the person delivered by God from the wrath of God (John 15:19) to the glory of God (John 15:8).

Your "it means we can chose which will we prefer to live by" is out of accord with the Word of God as demonstrated in the prior paragraph.

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) caused exclusively by God for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

continued from post #290



wondering, the Sovereign King Jesus decrees, as shown in the post to which you replied, that we Christians are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:8), but you wrote "We are born again, as you state, THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST", so in effect you convey that Christians are “born of the Resurrection” not the Holy Spirit of God as Lord Jesus declares.



Whoa there wondering, Lord Jesus says to Martha and asks "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26), but you convey a significantly different saying "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes on his own initiative in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes on his own initiative in Me will never die. Do you believe this according to your own initiative?" which places you out of accord with the Lord Who declares people can "not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

As further evidence of you being out of accord with the Lord, Lord Jesus says the believe inside of Martha as mentioned by Jesus (John 11:26) is the work of God, that is, Martha's faith/belief is caused by God alone because Jesus says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).



This saying of Jesus does "say He CAUSED them to believe what He revealed" with His blessed words of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Additionally, this saying of Jesus does "say He CAUSED them to" repent based upon "what He revealed" to babes with “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25) because the babes would be just like those intelligent people mentioned by Jesus in the self-same passage without God’s imparted revelation.

wondering, see that where God had me put in "repent" you changed into your replacement word of "believe" as a distinct misrepresentation, so continuing on with repentance.

The apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words (Matthew 11:25) with their saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

Clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).



You just "Agreed" that a person cannot love God without God causing the person to love God (1 John 4:7, 1 John 4:16); therefore, a person whom God has not caused the person to love God - such a person cannot righteously love the One True God.



"If we could have either the will of Adam or the will of Christ," then it means a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) is self-helplessly separated from God (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) as well as the person is incapable of choosing God unto the person self-delivering from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Romans 8:7-8) because choosing God results the person's selfish self-glorification, while on the other hand, it means a person chosen by God (John 15:16) to be born of God (John 3:3-8) is the person caused by God to bear the image of Christ's will (Romans 8:29) is the person delivered by God from the wrath of God (John 15:19) to the glory of God (John 15:8).

Your "it means we can chose which will we prefer to live by" is out of accord with the Word of God as demonstrated in the prior paragraph.

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) caused exclusively by God for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

Whoa!!!

I'll tell you this Kermos....
You're a master at twisting a members words, mine, to fit what You want them to mean.

And doing it to each and every statement made so that it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to reply in order to fix what you've stated.

This must be a new method of discussion ... to which I refuse to participate.

 

[journeyman]

Whoa!!!

I'll tell you this Kermos....
You're a master at twisting a members words, mine, to fit what You want them to mean.
And doing it to each and every statement made so that it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to reply in order to fix what you've stated.

This must be a new method of discussion ... to which I refuse to participate.

Hi wondering.
It's not a new method. Been going on for many years. It begins when esteemed theologians lay a false foundation and whatever is put on top is wrong also.

Example: Jesus reveals to "babes"

Kermos:
because the babes would be just like those intelligent people mentioned by Jesus in the self-same passage without God’s imparted revelation.

Jesus only meant God reveals himself to the humble. God says turn and become as children. That's all. It's pathetic

 

[journeyman]

Kermos:
Your "it means we can chose which will we prefer to live by" is out of accord with the Word of God as demonstrated in the prior paragraph.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, Jn.6:44 NIV

This doesn't mean people are without choice,

Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.....the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine......and his disciples believed in him. Jn .2:7,9,11 NIV

Jesus heals a blind man and asks the blind man if he believes in the "son of man." Jews understood the son of man to mean the Messish. The former blind man responds, he would if he knew who he was. He said this because Jesus left before he saw who healed him.

many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. Jn.2:23

My last post wasn't responded to either.

 

[brightfame52]

journeyman

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, Jn.6:44 NIV

This doesn't mean people are without choice,

It means people are without ability to come and believe on Christ.

 

[journeyman]

journeyman
It means people are without ability to come and believe on Christ.

Hi brightflame52
It's been a while since we talked.
I was going to bed but first had to appologize to Hidden In Him for an error I made. Before I went to bed, I saw this post was from you and immediately smiled because I thought the post might be from someone I can reason with.
I'm sure you feel the same way about me, because we've had many talks and we have a hard time agreeing on anything and that's ok. We can even get annoyed with one another and that's inderstandable because we go to battle against our flesh and and still live eaxh other.
Anyway I felt compelled to tell you I think the reason we see things differently is because if your hero John Calvin truly believed the heresy from hell called TULIP, he didn't have a clue in Gods' universe how Biblical correction vs, condemnation applied to Christ our King.
G'night and see ya tomorrow Dv <~~~ that means Lord willing in Latin.

 

[brightfame52]

Hi brightflame52
It's been a while since we talked.
I was going to bed but first had to appologize to Hidden In Him for an error I made. Before I went to bed, I saw this post was from you and immediately smiled because I thought the post might be from someone I can reason with.
I'm sure you feel the same way about me, because we've had many talks and we have a hard time agreeing on anything and that's ok. We can even get annoyed with one another and that's inderstandable because we go to battle against our flesh and and still live eaxh other.
Anyway I felt compelled to tell you I think the reason we see things differently is because if your hero John Calvin truly believed the heresy from hell called TULIP, he didn't have a clue in Gods' universe how Biblical correction vs, condemnation applied to Christ our King.
G'night and see ya tomorrow Dv <~~~ that means Lord willing in Latin.

Jn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Soooo old, it's boring.

Can't you come up with something new?
What about John 12:32?
AND IF I BE LIFTED UP, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME.

My wording, might be a bit off but not by much.

So if there can be no conflict in the NT, how come John 6:44 and John 12:32 conflict?
There must surely be an explanation.
Do you have one?

 

[journeyman]

Jn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

brightflame52
I just started a thread on Satan in Theology. It's a talk on how the devil lies and perverts scripture.
When I was a child I truly believed he had a pitchfork, like a comic book character and as I grew older didn't give him his due.
When I became aware that I needed our Savior, my source of Information about what God says became a local reformed church where I was told what they believed was the truth and learned that I disagreed with their doctrine I would be asked to leave because that's what happened.
I'm telling you this because for 30 + years a minister of God told me,

Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2Cor.11:14-15 NKJV

The same minister told me,

there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2Pet.2:1

I've seen things in the Bible that bother me where Orthodox teaching is concerned and I want to know why that things bother me.
God has given me the ability to read, a dictionary and even reserved a few brain cells so I could still understand him. That's all the thread on the devil is about.

I want you to participate in that thread, I'm not asking anyone to throw their beliefs out. I'm asking if we read and understand the Bible without preconceived teaching. That's all. When we read the Bible, what does that mean to us? I don't want dead theologians telling me what you think. I want you to tell me what you think.
I love you and hope you ome.

 

[Iconoclast]

Soooo old, it's boring.

Can't you come up with something new?
What about John 12:32?
AND IF I BE LIFTED UP, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME.

My wording, might be a bit off but not by much.

So if there can be no conflict in the NT, how come John 6:44 and John 12:32 conflict?
There must surely be an explanation.
Do you have one?

This has been explained several times. Your rebellion does not change it.

 

[GodsGrace]

This has been explained several times. Your rebellion does not change it.

Actually Icon, it hasn't ever been explained.
You just state how it is and then you're on your way.
The problem, as I see it, is that reformed theology creates many
conflicts within the NT.
This is one of them.
How do we get to God?
Through the Father .... John 6:44
Or through the Son ... John 12:32

Do the Father and Son not agree with each other?
Are the both grabbing for power?

Certainly there must be an answer.
What is the answer in simple terms and using only those two verses.
Have you an explanation?

(you could use other verse but 1. It shouldn't be necessary, 2: It won't change the conflict).

 

[brightfame52]

Soooo old, it's boring.

Can't you come up with something new?
What about John 12:32?
AND IF I BE LIFTED UP, I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME.

My wording, might be a bit off but not by much.

So if there can be no conflict in the NT, how come John 6:44 and John 12:32 conflict?
There must surely be an explanation.
Do you have one?

The drawing is salvation, so Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 are limited to the saved.