Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[GodsGrace]

You present the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 19:4-5 as your faith's purported proof of man's free-will.

First, free-will is not mentioned therein.

Second, no Scripture states man was imparted free-will, so there is no such thing as free-will.

No scripture states using hard drugs is a sin.
No scripture states a boy could turn into a girl, or V V.

Absence of a rule does not mean there is no rule.

Third, the Apostle Peter proclaims that man's self-will drives man to do evil things - even daring to revile His Majesty, the King of Heaven (2 Peter 2:9-10), so we find in history where the self-willed people committed the atrocities of burning the children that God gave to them (Jeremiah 19:4-5).

Well Kermos, as we both know it is GOD that drives man to do evil things.
I mean, are you reformed or what? If so, you must believe that God decrees EVERYTHING.

Burning children is also decreed by God, then, in your faith system, since He decreed everything from the beginning of time.
I think that if you don't care for this way of thinking, you might want to reconsider again all you write.

Those people were detached from God - you even extremely emboldened that portion of the Word of God "which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind" (Jeremiah 19:5) - see that's not free-will but it is self-will.

Those people were detached from God, and you, Tenchi, convey that you embrace that you are detached from God - YIKES.

My Father is merciful to choose to save a depraved wretch like me and every other brother and sister from the wrath of God by the Blood of His Son! He does it all! Praise the Lord!!!

Our Christian loving God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

I guess all those commentaries I sent you did no good.
John 15:16 WHO DID JESUS CHOOSE?

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Why is Job so focused on himself? According to the Calvinist, Job has only ever done exactly what God made him do. Of course, Calvinism didn't exist in Job's time...

He was focused on the one that had power.

Does this mean that God meticulously ordains everything? Not necessarily - especially if you don't want to make God the Ultimate Author of evil. It is God's desire that people freely choose to do His will - or not. The Bible is really clear about this. See my earlier posts in this thread.

yes he ordains everything to the good purpose of His eternal will he creates a evil and brings it against evil doers and forms peace. He does both

 

[Kermos]

I thought the subject matter was Generation's, Beginning's, Genesis's ?

Sorry, I had that to be used as a example to the end of the matter the beginning of the new generation Heavenly Jerusalem, the city of Christ not corrupted earthly Jerusalem .

Sorry in advance for extra work. The rambling helps me think or remember .

Born again Christians' walk by faith . . .God's labor of love . . .yoked with him our daily burden is lighter as we look to the daily bread of our Holy father. .

Faith the unseen eternal things of God reveals the things of his kingdom Not given from dying mankind earthly inspired . The food the disciples at first knew not of The son of man Jesus obeying the will of the Father that worked in him to both reveal it was His will and empower the Son of man Jesus to believe .

You could say the food of the first love spoken of in Revelation 2 .Hearing God being empowered to believe in a God not seen Previously trusting in the interpretation of the leader (Nicole) Miraculously as new creatures we can do the first works. . .Believe God its power turns us towards him so that when we are empowered we turn repent . Then when comforted (another form of repenting) Mankind feels childish shame and calls out for strength to do the will of the Holy Father.

Ephraim representing all born again believers unaccustomed of doing the will according to His glory Like Manna .What is it?

Two turnings one work of God Beautiful parable.

Jeremiah 31 :18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth. Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.

It, I believe defines the doctrine of repenting of the new generation

We can I beleive look to the end of repenting at the childish foolish idea and ask for strengthening food called the meat of the word needed to grow in the Lord and with it drink milk. "Milk builds strong bones of faith " .LOL Milk of the word teaches us God is gracious . . a good mixture would be a good daily recipe .

Again yoked with Christ the burden is made lighter Like Peter when yoked with Christ prophesied Increase our little faith. Christ as the storeroom or barnful gives us little, calls us little, the golden measure (faith) Not the literal what the eyes see .

Two as the witness that God spoke turning

Christian the new generation promised name he would name his wife in Isaiah 62 introducing all the nations(gentiles) of the world . . previously calling her israel as in all Israel are not born again Christians the new name that father named her in Acts. A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the whole world .Christian literally as demonym (people identified by location) Christian . . . . . residents of the unseen city of Christ prepared for his wife the church His eternal bride named after her founder and husband Christ the New Jerusalem the married land (the generation not seen ) not the old tempola dying earthly Jerusalem

Isaiah 62:1-4 King James Version For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee

Praise be to Jesus the Lord!!!

Another post that is a blessing to read!

Wow, the Word of God is amazing!

• thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
  (Isaiah 62:4, KJV)
• you will be called, “My delight is in her,” And your land, “Married"; For the LORD delights in you, And to Him your land will be married.
  (Isaiah 62:4, NASB1995)

God's choosing of בָ֔הּ (Strong's 2657 - Hephzibah - “My delight is in her") is absolutely beautiful!

God's choosing of בְּעוּלָ֑ה (Strong's 1166 - Beulah - “Married") is marvelously wonderful!

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Tenchi]

yes he ordains everything to the good purpose of His eternal will he creates a evil and brings it against evil doers and forms peace. He does both

Nope.

Jeremiah 19:4-5
4 ...they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

If God "ordains everything," how is it He denies any connection to the child sacrifice made by the Israelites? According to these verses, the Israelites were acting quite apart from God, doing what He had not commanded nor even considered.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Nope.

Jeremiah 19:4-5
4 ...they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

If God "ordains everything," how is it He denies any connection to the child sacrifice made by the Israelites? According to these verses, the Israelites were acting quite apart from God, doing what He had not commanded nor even considered.

Thanks for the reply.

I would offer God who not evil or a God who does not withhold his promise blessing creates a evil against the father of lies and creates the illusion of satan waning against himself. He would take a nation to rebuke the atheist Jew that was trusting his flesh could profit for something when he would sent them out as apostles they proved to be false prophets Not going when he said move and going when he said stay turning things upside down inspired from earth by false apostles' denying that which is inspired from above coming down like rain or dew causing growth

The people had no faith that could please God and God noticed their acts of evil( unbeilf no faith) . God prophesied , “I will create an evil against them for their ways, and repay them for their deeds. They shall eat, but not be satisfied; they shall play the whore, but not multiply; because they have forsaken the Lord to devote themselves to whoredom” (Hosea 4.9-10).

Isaiah 45:7 King James I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

If God "ordains everything," how is it He denies any connection to the child sacrifice made by the Israelites? According to these verses, the Israelites were acting quite apart from God, doing what He had not commanded nor even considered.

Yes they proved to be atheists' No invisible God working in the hard hearts he sent them a strong delusion so they could remain in ublief. . no faith coming from Christ. . no power of Christ yoked as with believers

 

[Kermos]

Jeremiah 19:4-5 (ESV)
4 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents,
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind-

If God meticulously ordains EVERYTHING, which is necessary to the theological determinism that the OP is espousing, how is the statement of verse 5 possible? The child sacrifice of the Israelites in worship of Baal was not commanded nor decreed by God, nor had such a thing even come into His mind as something the Israelites should ever do. But they were performing child sacrifice anyway. Only if human free agency exists is such a state-of-affairs possible.

This current post stands with post #254 (in response to your post #158) about Jeremiah 19:4-5 which Scripturally explains that those self-willed people burned their children, not those parents free-will since their wills are attached to themselves, but truly self-willed persons that are detached from God.

You asked "If God meticulously ordains EVERYTHING, which is necessary to the theological determinism that the OP is espousing, how is the statement of verse 5 possible?" regarding Jeremiah 19:4-5 in your newer post #168.

Within your question is your embedded declaration of "God meticulously ordains EVERYTHING, which is necessary to the theological determinism that the OP is espousing" which, in effect, in combination with all the times that God has had me proclaim to you about self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) that man causes man's own misery in advance to your post #158, then your writing exposes your free-willian philosophy.

Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The free will adherent Philosophy Explained​

Free will adherents think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet they simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free will philosophy.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

Free will adherents preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free will adherents preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of the free will adherent failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of free will adherents claim died to save.

The blood at the cross also established a spot in Heaven for the third individual who never heard the Gospel, but that spot will remain vacant for all eternity - the god of the free-willians was unable to keep the spot occupied.

The god of free will philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

The free will god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

That is no god at all which the free will adherents create in their imagination, just a tradition of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), God saves every single individual for whom Jesus died on the cross to redeem from the wrath of God; in other words, God does not miss saving a single one of God's chosen persons for whom Jesus made atonement on the cross.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:29) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free will adherent who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.

Behold, the psalmist says he is entirely dependent upon the Almighty!

I will extol You, O YHWH, for You have lifted me up,
And have not let my enemies rejoice over me.
O YHWH my God,
I cried to You for help, and You healed me.
O YHWH, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
(Psalm 30:1-3)

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free-willians preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of free-willians failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of the free-willians died to save.

I would be careful with the phrase free-willians . . sounds a bit sarcastic .

It was Christ who restored the will that he created to believe in the faithful Creator Let there be and mankind was God good

He did not create anarchy cause and confusion

The food the disciples knew not of the daily manna (what is it?) According to your will Holy Father strengthen me to do it to your good pleasure. It's the key free- Willians and Mary,s whosoevers obey it

John 4:30-34 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[GodsGrace]

He was focused on the one that had power.

yes he ordains everything to the good purpose of His eternal will he creates a evil and brings it against evil doers and forms peace. He does both

Very confused God if He does both.
I thought God was Love.
1 John 4:8

 

[GodsGrace]

I would be careful with the phrase free-willians . . sounds a bit sarcastic .

It was Christ who restored the will that he created to believe in the faithful Creator Let there be and mankind was God good

He did not create anarchy cause and confusion

The food the disciples knew not of the daily manna (what is it?) According to your will Holy Father strengthen me to do it to your good pleasure. It's the key free- Willians and Mary,s whosoevers obey it

John 4:30-34 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Of course the other member means it sarcastically.
He's a reformed believer and does not feel anyone has free will.

 

[7thMoon]

He was focused on the one that had power.

yes he ordains everything to the good purpose of His eternal will he creates a evil and brings it against evil doers and forms peace. He does both

What about evil against the just? Did Job do evil or were his friends the real problem?

 

[Kermos]

This is true.
Some call this Actual Grace and some call it Prevenient Grace.
This would be explained well here:

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

Source: CCC No. 35

I like the above explanation which comes from
Romans 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



Agreed.
Amen.

Man has always had the opportunity to believe in God....
Some chose not to and it is these upon whom the wrath of God will fall.

Well, wondering, you preached the tradition of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) titled CCC No. 35 (your source) with "The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith" instead of the Apostolic testimony that continues in the very next verse from where you deceptively ceased quoting the Apostle Paul's Romans 1:18-20, so here is Paul's inspired continuation:

​

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures​

(Romans 1:21-23).​

​

Behold, wondering, the them in verse 19 and the same people, the they in verse 20, are the fools in verse 22.

Fools exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man proclaiming the centrality of man with sayings like "Man has always had the opportunity to believe in God" instead of the centrality of the Son of God for the Word of God says that God controls the "believe" in every single Christian with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

See the foundational difference between your "believe" (CCC No. 35) and the Word of God's "believe" (John 6:29).

Do not be deceived, the Glorious Holy God, Lord Jesus Christ, exclusively chooses us Christians for He says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

This current post stands with post #254 (in response to your post #158) about Jeremiah 19:4-5 which Scripturally explains that those self-willed people burned their children, not those parents free-will since their wills are attached to themselves, but truly self-willed persons that are detached from God.

You asked "If God meticulously ordains EVERYTHING, which is necessary to the theological determinism that the OP is espousing, how is the statement of verse 5 possible?" regarding Jeremiah 19:4-5 in your newer post #168.

Within your question is your embedded declaration of "God meticulously ordains EVERYTHING, which is necessary to the theological determinism that the OP is espousing" which, in effect, in combination with all the times that God has had me proclaim to you about self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) that man causes man's own misery in advance to your post #158, then your writing exposes your free-willian philosophy.

Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained​

Free-willians think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet free-willians simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free-willians preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of free-willians failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of the free-willians died to save.

The blood at the cross also established a spot in Heaven for the third individual who never heard the Gospel, but that spot will remain vacant for all eternity - the god of the free-willians was unable to keep the spot occupied.

The god of free-willian philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

The free-willian god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

That is no god at all which the free-willians create in their imagination, just a tradition of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), God saves every single individual for whom Jesus died on the cross to redeem from the wrath of God; in other words, God does not miss saving a single one of God's chosen persons for whom Jesus made atonement on the cross.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:29) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free-willian who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.

Behold, the psalmist says he is entirely dependent upon the Almighty!

I will extol You, O YHWH, for You have lifted me up,
And have not let my enemies rejoice over me.
O YHWH my God,
I cried to You for help, and You healed me.
O YHWH, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
(Psalm 30:1-3)

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.
PLEASE DO NOT REFER TO GOD AS god TO THOSE THAT ARE NOT REFORMED.
PLEASE SEE HIGLIGHTED ABOVE.
PLEASE STOP USING THE PHRASE "FREE WILLIANS".
THIS SOUNDS DISRESPECTFUL TO THE NON-REFORMED BELIEVERS.
TOS 1.1 1.5
ARE BEING BROKEN.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.
THANKS.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, wondering, you preached the tradition of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) titled CCC No. 35 (your source) with "The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith" instead of the Apostolic testimony that continues in the very next verse from where you deceptively ceased quoting the Apostle Paul's Romans 1:18-20, so here is Paul's inspired continuation:

​

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures​

(Romans 1:21-23).​

​

Behold, wondering, the them in verse 19 and the same people, the they in verse 20, are the fools in verse 22.

Agreed.
The fools are those that DID NOT come to faith in God even though Romans 1:19 states that His existence has always been made known through His creation.
This is why there will be no excuse before God.
Because EVERYONE had the opportunity to believe in Him.
THE FOOLS are those that denied God and worshipped the earthen things and themselves instead.

Fools exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man proclaiming the centrality of man with sayings like "Man has always had the opportunity to believe in God" instead of the centrality of the Son of God for the Word of God says that God controls the "believe" in every single Christian with “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Well, apparently you believe the bible always existed.
But it did not come into existence until about 3,500 years ago.
What happened to men before that?
Do you feel that Paul is wrong in stating that what is known about God is EVIDENT WITHIN THEM...
For GOD MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM.
Romans 1:19

For even though they knew God, they did NOT HONOR HIM AS GOD.
Romans 1:21

These are the fools.
Those that did not honor God.

See the foundational difference between your "believe" (CCC No. 35) and the Word of God's "believe" (John 6:29).

Do not be deceived, the Glorious Holy God, Lord Jesus Christ, exclusively chooses us Christians for He says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

The above is such an old post that I'm not going to reply to it anymore.
If you don't know who Jesus was speaking to in John 15, that's a problem you have.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

What about evil against the just? Did Job do evil or were his friends the real problem?

Thanks good question.

I think the real problem was Job's self-righteous friends they tried to justify salvation by a work they could do called a work of the law. In that way the letter of the law kills if one does not fulfil. They were saying a person must follow the letter (do or die) and not the unseen Holy Spirit that worked in Job

Job's suffering can be I believe only be seen as the punishment of God for grievous sin living in a body of death. its appointed in sufferings that mankind die once . The wage of sin in dying you will come to a end . Suffering cannot be explained by the simple retributive justice where mankind gets what he deserves: suffering for the evil and blessing for the good.

 

[Kermos]

Now that it is established that Adam listened to his wife as being the cause of Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food, not Adam choosing to eat, but truly the cause of Adam eating of the tree occurred inside of Adam as shown in post #240, a response to your post #151 in which you preached the unscriptural falsehood that Adam made a choice to eat, now moving on to your subsequent point in post #151.

It is the person with a very...small view of God who thinks that if He doesn't ordain every single thing, He simply can't accomplish what He wants to accomplish. The bigger - and better - view of God, the biblical truth about Him, is that He can do what He wants to do even when we are doing what we want to do contrary to His will.

It is the person with a very...small view of God who thinks that God is incapable of control over God's domain.

Your thoughts of God are out accord with the Word of God saying “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21).

Your thoughts of God are out accord with the Word of God saying "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

Your thoughts of God are out accord with Apostolic testimony proclaiming in prayer:

Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

"Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed"

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus

(Acts 4:24-30)
​

Behold, Tenchi, the very intimate and person control indicated by "your hand" about God's control in this Apostolic prayer.

See your thoughts exposed by your writing disagree with Apostolic testimony.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Perhaps God will bring me back to reply to more of your post, or God might have me move on to others.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

See your thoughts exposed by your writing disagree with Apostolic testimony.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

They were not his thoughts the thoughts of apostles are as nothing.

The unseen Lord is the one good teaching master That would seem to represent taking the name as power of God in vain and attribute it to the dying apostles They did not preach thier own thoughts

It would seem you are using words without meaning. "Apostolic testimony" rather than the testimony of God living word

They are sent as messengers called apostles "sent ones" Not highly venerable ones that they call themselves apostolic testimony making the living testimony of God without effect.

It simply the testimony of God as it is writen in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

It does not agree with your testament of men as it is written in the CCC

No man can serve two writen authorities as one good invisible teaching master.

Our Father in heaven not our Holy Father,Holy See here on earth . . earthly inspired.

The first member of the bride of Christ was Abel sent by God as a apostle (sent one) he preached the gospel. His brother who did not believe in a God not seen was seduced by Satan to murder Abel. the father of lies a murder from that very beginning spoken of in John 8:44

Able the prophet as one sent the first listed martyr

 

[Tenchi]

This current post stands with post #254 (in response to your post #158) about Jeremiah 19:4-5 which Scripturally explains that those self-willed people burned their children, not those parents free-will since their wills are attached to themselves, but truly self-willed persons that are detached from God.

This is, as far as I can tell, verbal gobbledy-gook. If a person is self-willed, are they not independent from God's will? You seem to say as much here ("detached from God"). If they are independent of God's will, then they are, in some sense, free to choose other than what God wills and thus are not deterministically bound to do what He wants. Why, then, can they not be said to have free will?

I have no idea what you mean by "not those parents free-will since their wills are attached to themselves." To whom else would their wills be attached? How does being "attached" (whatever this means) to their will prevent their will from being free?

Within your question is your embedded declaration of "God meticulously ordains EVERYTHING, which is necessary to the theological determinism that the OP is espousing" which, in effect, in combination with all the times that God has had me proclaim to you about self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) that man causes man's own misery in advance to your post #158, then your writing exposes your free-willian philosophy.

First, I should point out, I think, that just because you believe God is leading you in what you post doesn't mean He actually is. Inasmuch as your posts are fraught with error, I am convinced He has not been "leading you" at all.

Second, I have not hidden my "free-willian philosophy" in my posts in this thread, so I don't know what you mean by "your writing exposes your free-willian philosophy." I should hope my writing does this; it's largely the point of my writing in this thread, after all.

Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained​

Free-willians think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet free-willians simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

Yeah...no. This is a Strawman version of what I think as someone who holds to a soft libertarian view of human free agency.

"Choosing Jesus" does not save a person. Jesus saves. To analogize: If I choose to have a brain surgeon remove my brain tumor, have I saved myself? No. If the brain surgeon doesn't perform his life-saving work upon my brain, my choosing to let him operate on me won't save me in the slightest. Only the surgical work of the surgeon on my brain saves me and I can nothing to contribute to that work; having trusted myself to his surgical power, I can only lay on the operating table and receive the surgeon's work. How, then, have I saved myself? I choose to be saved by the surgeon, yes, but he is the one who saves me.

In the same way, my choosing to be saved by Christ does not mean I've saved myself. I can do nothing to contribute to the saving work of Christ; I can only receive from him my salvation; I am helpless to remove the "tumor" of my sin for myself. My trusting that Christ can and will do so, then, doesn't save me; it simply puts me in the position to be saved by him.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

Again, this is just more silly Strawman arguing. As a proponent of soft libertarianism, I don't believe that a person's salvation hinges solely upon the person choosing to trust in Christ as their Savior and Lord. Scripture is quite clear that God must draw the lost sinner to Christ (John 6:44); God must also, by the Holy Spirit, convict the lost sinner of "sin, righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8); and God "gives repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" to the lost sinner, too (2 Timothy 2:25). Having done all these things for the lost person, they are then able - and free - to choose to trust in Christ as their Savior, or not.

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

And...more Strawman stuff.

People don't go to hell because they've not heard the Gospel but because they have sinned, suppressing in unrighteousness the knowledge of God all people possess through the testimony of Creation, their Moral Sense (a.k.a. - conscience), and their being made in the "imago dei" (Romans 1:18-22; Romans 2:15; Genesis 1:27). All those who truly desire to know God will know Him, no matter where they are (James 4:10; Jeremiah 29:13). Many are the astonishing testimonies I've heard demonstrating that this is so. By way of dreams, miraculous encounters with Christians, Gospel radio programs, and so on Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists who've sincerely desired to know the truth have all come to faith in Christ who is "the Way, the Truth and the Life" (John 14:6).

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free-willians preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of free-willians failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of the free-willians died to save.

And on, and on, the Strawmanning stuff goes... Yikes.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It isn't the "free-willian" who says that, through Christ, God has made atonement for everybody, but God Himself in His word, the Bible.

John 1:29 (NASB)
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Romans 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Hebrews 9:11-12
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

As a soft libertarian, I hold, not that God has actually redeemed everybody (as a universalist would contend), but that He has made a way for all to be reconciled to Himself if they choose, by faith, to take it.

John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

The god of free-willian philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

No, only your Strawman of the God in whom I believe is this way.

The free-willian god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

Baloney. Utter baloney.

I hope this thread is instructive to its readers concerning the matter of assessing a view through the filter of its opponents. If you want to know what a person who holds to the idea of free will actually thinks about it, ask them, not those who are enemies of their position. As Kermos has well demonstrated, the enemies of a viewpoint will often enormously distort it in order to make their own viewpoint seem stronger.

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:29) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

Here, Kermos attempts to create a divide between "we Christians" (which is to say, "those who believe as I do") and those who oppose his views. This sort of divisiveness - especially based upon the wild distortions he's made of the opposing view - ought to signal to folks how corrupt Kermos' own view is. Fortunately, he doesn't get to frame for everybody else who is "Christian" and who is not - though it's evident he would like to.

The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19).

And more nonsense. In point of fact, it is Kermos' view that diminishes God's glory. As I've explained above, as one who believes in Man's free agency, I don't hold that a person's choice to trust in Christ is what saves them any more than it's the tumorous person's choice to be saved by a surgeon that actually saves them from their killing tumor. The person suffering from a brain tumor can choose to have brain surgery and lie upon the operating table, but if the surgeon doesn't perform his life-saving surgery upon them, no amount of choosing and lying upon the operating table will save the sick person. In the same way, the lost man choosing Christ and receiving his saving work doesn't make the man worthy of glorification. No amount of the man's choosing to receive salvation in Christ is of any value if Christ doesn't save him.

Kermos seems to think that if God doesn't control everything, forcing His will upon sinners in order to save them, then no one can be saved. To use a crude analogy, which dog owner is more impressive: The one who has collared his dog and constantly drags it about, forcing the dog to do what he wants? Or the dog-owner whose dog willingly and enthusiastically follows its owner, out of love obeying commands without hesitation or coercion? As far as I'm concerned, it's the second dog-owner who is impressive, not the first.

To employ another analogy: Is the chess player who must control all of his opponent's moves in order to win a match more impressive than the chess player who wins no matter what moves his opponent makes? The latter, obviously. So, too, with God. He is most impressive, most worthy of glory, when He successfully fulfills His will even though we may defy His will and choose our own "moves" instead.

Now that it is established that Adam listened to his wife as being the cause of Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food, not Adam choosing to eat, but truly the cause of Adam eating of the tree occurred inside of Adam as shown in post #240, a response to your post #151 in which you preached the unscriptural falsehood that Adam made a choice to eat, now moving on to your subsequent point in post #151.

??? Man, this is so nonsensical... I have no idea how you can say that Adam listened to his wife and ate of the Forbidden Fruit but did so without choosing to do so. Did Eve hold Adam down and stuff the Fruit in his mouth? Was Eve so much in control of Adam that her word was his command, her offer of the Forbidden Fruit an irresistible order? Where would such an idea come from? Not the Genesis account, that's for sure.

Your thoughts of God are out accord with the Word of God saying “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21).

Your thoughts of God are out accord with the Word of God saying "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

??? Simply citing verses like this in no way establishes your assertion that my "thoughts of God are out of accord with the word of God." An assertion is just an assertion, not a justifying argument - even if you attach a Bible verse to it.

Behold, @Tenchi, the very intimate and person control indicated by "your hand" about God's control in this Apostolic prayer.

See your thoughts exposed by your writing disagree with Apostolic testimony.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Pffft. Really? All I can say here is, "The empty barrel makes the most noise."

Perhaps God will bring me back to reply to more of your post, or God might have me move on to others.

God has nothing to do with your silly posts, Kermos. Don't drag Him into your false doctrines. Yikes.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Behold, @Tenchi, the very intimate and person control indicated by "your hand" about God's control in this Apostolic prayer.

See your thoughts exposed by your writing disagree with Apostolic testimony.

As usual, this debate is generating derogatory and insulting remarks.

So "behold," any further such comments will be edited out or the posts will simply be deleted, and anyone who has any problems with that will be removed from this thread entirely, beginning with but not exclusive to those things posted by the OP.