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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

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Runningman said:
There are way too many problems with free will outside the scope of the OP of this thread. For starters, it wouldn't make sense for God to provide a gospel of salvation for people who couldn't control sin and then hold them accountable for their sin for rejecting said gospel.
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You could discuss free will.
That IS the scope of this thread.
 
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Runningman said:
There are way too many problems with free will outside the scope of the OP of this thread. For starters, it wouldn't make sense for God to provide a gospel of salvation for people who couldn't control sin and then hold them accountable for their sin for rejecting said gospel.
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So are you implying that men dead in trespasses and sins, has a freewill to control sin ?
 
Kermos said:
Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  • God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
    YET a command does not convey ability
    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
    AND the firm fact is established
    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
  • The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
  • Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
    • The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adams will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9)
    • Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
      AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Job 42:2)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
    • The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened (perceived) and followed her word about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      YET action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
    • An inherently good Adam would have assuredly and absolutely excluded eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      BECAUSE an inherently good Adam would have acted in the good way of obedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17)
      WITH the good way being God's Way (John 14:6)
      YET "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
      AND it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31)
      NOTE in "it was very good", the word "it" is grammatically a third person singular thus referring to the entirety of creation being constructed well (good) on course with God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
      YET the word "it" is not third person plural as in "they were very good" of which a third person plural is required in order to refer to an individual such as Adam or the Devil the Serpent
      AND the Word of God specifically excludes Adam from being good with "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
      SO the spirit of antichrist preaches that Adam with all mankind as good for any amount of time thus nullifying the need for the Savior
      BEHOLD that God saw the whole package, the complete creation, the "all" that He had made, that it was very good
      BUT God did not specify how the aggregate (all) that He had made was very good therein
      AND God did not specify any constituents of creation as being inherently good therein
      AND God creating "all that He had made" for God in Jesus Christ to come to earth to save evil man is very good
      SO with certainty, God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good
    • The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ, that is, the Assembly of God
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
      THEREFORE God exclusively causes individuals to join into the Assembly of God.

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor.

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!
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He was given choices, unfortunately he chose what led to sin....
 
Tenchi said:
I think there's much more to doing good deeds that God accepts than this.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from me you practice lawlessness.'
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Yes, they were not moved by the mighty faith of God. They took it upon thier own self. They say his name but Christ never moved them to preach in that way he never knew them .

He did not say they did not prophecy and perform wonderful works just not according to His name(power)

God can use a believer to preach the gospel just as easily as one that does not believe.
 
wondering said:
That's very Pelagian of you.
I don't believe I've ever met a Christian that is Pelagian in theology.
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Amen free will was given up in the garden when mankind did the will of the father of lies in effect saying. . "look at my beauty and live forever as in why believe in a God not seen ?

Free will to a born again believer. . God working in us to both hear and empower us to do it according to his glory .(Philippians 2:13) Called the meat of the word. the daily bread from heaven which the disciples knew not of at first and continued to build on the foundation the sweet meat of the word (the gospel)

You could say the true manna (What is it?) Taste like honey .

What we need ears to hear his sweet understanding the gospel

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Again philipian 2:13 both to hear and do the will of God .

Both =milk and meat.

Milk of the word teaches us God is gracious meat strengthens us to the will of our Holy Father in heaven

We never outgrow the need of milk
 
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Runningman said:
There are way too many problems with free will outside the scope of the OP of this thread. For starters, it wouldn't make sense for God to provide a gospel of salvation for people who couldn't control sin and then hold them accountable for their sin for rejecting said gospel.
Click to expand...

It’s a very simple concept.

Man has the ability to choose to obey God or not.

We serve God by obeying Him. His plan for our lives is good and eternal.

It starts by obeying the Gospel.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:13-17

  • But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

Obeying the LORD is a choice each person must make.


Make no mistake, God gives us grace to obey Him.


Nevertheless, each person must choose to obey the LORD or not.




JLB
 
wondering said:
I've read the ECFs so I don't think oral tradition explains it.
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Two kinds of church fathers one the bible alone (sola scriptura)

The EFC's offer oral traditions of dying mankind. It makes all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura ) without effect.

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

They worshiped a legion of gods in the likeness of man rather than our Holy Father in heaven

No man can serve two good teachings masters coming from one God.

The eternal Spirit or the dying flesh of mankind.?
 
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Mr. G Lee said:
Two kinds of church fathers one the bible alone (sola scriptura)

The EFC's offer oral traditions of dying mankind. It makes all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura ) without effect.
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Do you confirm what scripture states?
Does this make it of no effect?
I don't believe that if I confirm what scripture states that I'm making scripture of no effect.

Mr. G Lee said:
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

They worshiped a legion of gods in the likeness of man rather than our Holy Father in heaven
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WHO believed a legion of gods?
Certainly not the Hebrews.
They were the only population in that part of the world and at that time that believed there was only ONE elohim.

Mr. G Lee said:
No man can serve two good teachings masters coming from one God.
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I believe our only teaching master should be the Word of God and those that believe it.
 
JLB said:
It’s a very simple concept.

Man has the ability to choose to obey God or not.

We serve God by obeying Him. His plan for our lives is good and eternal.

It starts by obeying the Gospel.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:13-17

  • But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

Obeying the LORD is a choice each person must make.


Make no mistake, God gives us grace to obey Him.


Nevertheless, each person must choose to obey the LORD or not.




JLB
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Agreed. Faith and works are a choice.
 
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brightfame52 said:
A sinner can choose not to sin, Gotcha ! Can a lion choose not to be a lion ? Can a dead man choose not to be dead ? Can a slave to sin choose not to be a slave to sin ?
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Jesus believes sinners can chose not to sin and go on to sin no more. It's a choice and matter of free will. The comparison you're making doesn't contradict Jesus' words on the matter.

Matt 7
11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Luke 6
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.

John 5
14Afterward, Jesus found the man at the temple and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you.”

John 8
11“No one, Lord,” she answered.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”
 
Runningman said:
Jesus believes sinners can chose not to sin and go on to sin no more. It's a choice and matter of free will. The comparison you're making doesn't contradict Jesus' words on the matter.

Matt 7
11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Luke 6
32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.

John 5
14Afterward, Jesus found the man at the temple and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you.”

John 8
11“No one, Lord,” she answered.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”
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I believe you are deceived friend.
 
Adam, to whom God spoke directly, CHOSE to eat of the Tree against God's loving warning. So of course he had free will. Otherwise God made him do that which God instructed he must not do. Also his spiritual death was not punishment but consequence. Just like when from love we tell our child "Thou shalt not run out into the busy street for in the day you do you shall surely get hit by a car". Now if the child chooses this and gets hit would it be justifiable to then accuse the parent and say being hit was a parentally motivated punishment for disobedience? No! read Isaiah 59:2!
 
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