brightfame52
2024 Supporter
No its not, I already answered, look at my previous posts.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?
- Thread starter Kermos
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brother Paul
Member
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Fine. I simply disagree and free will is NOT Pelegianism. Pelegianism says our salvation is our will and choice and salvation is ONLY by grace THROUGH faith. People often misunderstand this because they were influenced by Calvinism and the problem is that Calvin wrote his Institutes based on Augustine's Against Pelegius but his error is explained in Augustine's next work On Grace and Free Will which he either missed, did not have access to, or ignored. Being the prolific theologian he was I assume it was one of the 1st two.
The official position of the earliest church (as taught to the appointed leaders by the Apostles and first Deacons (who were taught by Christ Himself) is that when God urges us or inspires us or speaks to us through the hearing of the gospel, some will automatically reject this but some will respond (each of their own free will) and seek what God has to offer. For these He then encourages them engages them or indwells them further. But being saved is 100% His choice. He owes us nothing even if we repent. The scriptures are replete with examples (Augustine sites 20+) but here are a few and I hope this helps. It is the original teaching held in common no matter where the church or who the Apostle's appointed leader.
John 1:12 -...after people saw and heard Christ we read...
to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Notice it does not say "to all who became the children of God, they believed and received Him" No! That is backwards
Acts 2:38 -repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NOT all who have received the Holy Spirit will repent and be baptized (again that is backwards)
Ephesians 1:13 (those taught Calvinism stop at 12) - 13:And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
NOT "those marked with the seal of the Spirit then believed" (backwards again)
How about Revelations 3:20? 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Three steps God calls, the persons who respond get to be one with Him. Thoise that do not or will not open that door do not. When He talks to our heart, we must respond, AND THEN, if the response is the correct one (through faith meaning we believed Him not just in Him) we get born from above and are filled with His Spirit (Romans 8:9)
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
brother Paul
Nothing in any of these scriptures mention anything about man having a freewill, so I have no problem with them
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Well, of course, you should be having a problem with them BF.
The real problem is that they cannot be explained away.
The entire bible says nothing to the fact that we should or shouldn't take any type of drug that distorts reality and harms our body....
Does this mean it's OK to?
You're doing the same thing.
Free will is all over the entire bible - you just CHOOSE not to see it.
How would you explain the following...which clearly states it is YOU that must take an action....
It does NOT state that God will be decreeing what you are to do, but is giving a command instead...
Romans 13:12
12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh. c
LET US PUT ASIDE....
LET US PUT ON THE ARMOR...
LET US BEHAVE DECENTLY...
CLOTHE YOURSELVES WITH...
DO NOT THINK.....
Those are all commands that we are to follow.
Nowhere, ever, does Paul state that this will happen without our cooperation.
brother Paul
Member
Every one of them has to do with the responsibility of the human to respond. Some toward God and others from Him (preferring to be lord of their own life). We are not robots with a grand puppet master, so I cannot fathom how you do not see that at a point we choose and others will not (hence free will).
God (foreknowing all will not) tells the children of Israel that He had set before them life and death, blessing and curse and commands them "Choose Life", but most did not or would not. The Bible says God wills that all would come to repentance (but knows all will not). If all these passages (many pointed out by others) does not make you comprehend this most basic reality, then you are opposed to the word of God (which we must tale as a whole) and your argument is with Him, otherwise you may have been persuaded by some denominational theology that is clearly in error (as I was for about a decade). Then I re-read the text for what it actually says. not excluding hyperbole when hyperbole, metaphor when metaphor, simile when simile, the poetic when poetic, apocalyptic when apocalyptic, and so on.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Why waste time ? Nothing about man having a freewill in those scriptures.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Not one of them says anything about man having a freewill.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Thats not true, in fact man by nature cant do nothing but disobey, in so far he is called a son of disobedience Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Its a spirit of disobedience working in them, they are under its dominion.
Explain Enoch then ?
Or Elijah ?
Or John the Baptist ?
Or Jesus ?
As not all are disobedient, some have apparently "willed" to change from what they once were.
Thanks be to God we don't have to remain there !
Those who turn from sin, are washed by the blood of Christ, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost can break your "mold".
Men have the ability to "turn".
Don't you think you have the ability to will to change ?
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Men by nature, our wills, heart , mind and affections are under the power and enslavement to a sinful nature Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Jn 8:34
Jesus answered them,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Perhaps you'd like to look at my post again?
It's easy for you to say that there's nothing about free will in my post,
but we're in THEOLOGY here and not Calvinism.
You're required to post scripture for your beliefs, otherwise it's just your opinion.
Here's my post again....it would be courteous of you to respond to it:
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How would you explain the following...which clearly states it is YOU that must take an action....
It does NOT state that God will be decreeing what you are to do, but is giving a command instead...
Romans 13:12
12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh. c
LET US PUT ASIDE....
LET US PUT ON THE ARMOR...
LET US BEHAVE DECENTLY...
CLOTHE YOURSELVES WITH...
DO NOT THINK.....
Those are all commands that we are to follow.
Nowhere, ever, does Paul state that this will happen without our cooperation.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Nothing in those verses days man has a freewill.
Are you not over-joyed that we of the NT can have the will to be reborn with a divine nature ?
I sure am.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Could you exegete Romans 13:12-14
Thanks
No,,,just read vs 13 and you will see what you are missing, on purpose. Not by the will of man, opps, you missed it again.
Eph1 does not start at vs 13, lol you are the one who has it backwards You missed all the election beofe the world stuff,lol
Not about salvation, it was addressed to people in the church
Some have lived and died and never even heard the name Jesus. No knock on the door to a church 2000 yrs ago is going to direct them
Because you cannot understand it does not mean all the rest of us can see it. Calvinism is all about theology and scripture, not what you feel.
that goes for you as well
No big deal. Christians obey all lawful commands Jesus and the Apostles has given to us.For a Christian, the bondage to sin has been broken, so we can joyfully obey and serve
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Romans 13:12-14 states that it is up to us to follow God's commands and to live as He would want us to live.
It does not state that God decrees how we should behave but that the onus is on us.
Perhaps if you exegeted the Romans verse it would help us to understand.
Or can you?
Earlier I posted this;
No big deal. Christians obey all lawful commands Jesus and the Apostles has given to us.For a Christian, the bondage to sin has been broken, so we can joyfully obey and serve/
Let me expand on that, After dealing with how a lawful Government should be,[13:1-7] he turns to address individual believers, both Jew and gentile who are now part of the Kingdom of God.
They are to live in love which means obey the law in Christ...yes, the ten commandments as He explains in 8-10
Love is the fulfilling of the law
W...guess what, I have to disagree. Let me show you why. God had indeed ordained good works that we are to walk in.
Eph.2:10. The referring to commandment keeping is a part of the obedience of faith, romans 1 Rom16.We are called to holiness, so he mentions moving forward that we are to put on, or live, or walk as believers called out of darkness and the works thereof.
Sort of, but to really understand, we are called to be believer priests. Priests had a responsibility that in the OT, they often failed to do,like here; Ezk22
8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.
9 In thee are men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they eat upon the mountains: in the midst of thee they commit lewdness.
10 In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.
11 And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.
12 In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord God.
26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
This violation invited the judgment of God. We as believer priests are ordained to walk in holiness. It is expected and not optional.
In 11-14 they are called to walk or live in Kingdom light, not mixing the holy with the profane. They are recent converts being instructed in what God would command them to do.
D. THE BELIEVER’S CIVIL OBLIGATION–CITIZENSHIP (13:1–14)
a) Our Attitude as Christians (13:1–5)
b) Our Allegiance as Christians (13:6–7)
b) Our Associations as Christians (13:8–10)
a) Our Actions as Christians
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