Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[brightfame52]

Are you not over-joyed that we of the NT can have the will to be reborn with a divine nature ?
I sure am.

Man by nature are dead in sin, their will included, its a slave to sin. Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Man is born a servant/slave to sin and must be made free by Christ Rom 6:17-18

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

Could you exegete Romans 13:12-14
Thanks

No I wont, you do it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Man by nature are dead in sin, their will included, its a slave to sin. Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Man is born a servant/slave to sin and must be made free by Christ Rom 6:17-18

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Amen to that !
The "new creature" isn't what he once was before his conversion.

 

[brightfame52]

Amen to that !
The "new creature" isn't what he once was before his conversion.

Yeah Amen to that, mans will is enslaved to sin, not free

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yeah Amen to that, mans will is enslaved to sin, not free

Your response doesn't "amen" my post.
It contradicts it.
If man's will is enslaved to sin, how could a man ever repent of, (turn from), sin ?
Jesus said the truth would set you free.
The Jews asked "From what?"
Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)
The truth will free you from serving/committing sin !

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus said the truth would set you free.
The Jews asked "From what?"

Junk food, drugs, cigarette, alcohol, video games, porn, tv shows, social media, shopping, gambling, you name it. Others include seemingly positive and productive activities such as meditating, working, cooking, exercising and cleaning. These are all coping mechanisms for the purpose of avoiding stress and seeking pleasure.

 

[brightfame52]

Your response doesn't "amen" my post.
It contradicts it.
If man's will is enslaved to sin, how could a man ever repent of, (turn from), sin ?
Jesus said the truth would set you free.
The Jews asked "From what?"
Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)
The truth will free you from serving/committing sin !

All men are born slaves to sin, under the control/power of sin, so our will isnt free from the control/power of sin Rom 3:9

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
The word under here is the prep ὑπό:
to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing:

 

[one2question]

So why did the Creator in the designing stage before He actually created this creation, choose to not give His creation (man and woman) the ability to choose whatever they wanted? What was/is His rationale?

 

[one2question]

It makes me think the presence of this tree containing knowledge was something that wasn't avoidable in the first place.

I apologise in advance for my simple following thought and imagination. Runningman I think I'm with you on this. This all-wise Creator Who had endless time to consider and reconsider what He could do (or was about to do) creates a tree and puts it in the midst of the garden where He then places a creature (man) and says do not eat of this tree. Then He has or allows another of His created beings come to tempt the man to eat of that tree. In all this the Creator knows full well that the man has the ability to eat of that particular tree that He told him not to. Did God not foresee that it was only a matter of time before this would happen, were He to carry out this imagined plotline/script/storyline? It was obviously for a reason known to the Scriptwriter. But we have a problem, there isn’t enough information made available by the Scriptwriter giving us specifics, a blow-by-blow account of what He was thinking when He formed this plotline in His mind. And was the first imagined storyline the one He acted on and produced or was there previous ones that were put aside to make way for this (final) one that we are a part of today? Had He imagined a scenario where He grants a sovereign will and the ability to exercise it, the same as Himself to even the playing field, only to find it was not a workable reality. The Creator Himself knows the answer to these questions. Maybe the bible sheds some light on this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because you cannot understand it does not mean all the rest of us can see it. Calvinism is all about theology and scripture, not what you feel.

What do you think I don't understand?
Why do you say that calvinism is not about what I FEEL?
What do feelings have to do with what we believe?
Do you even read my posts?
If not, just let me know and I'll never post to you again.

that goes for you as well

You're referring to scripture.
If I'm asking you to exegete a verse, doesn't that mean I'm using scripture???

No big deal. Christians obey all lawful commands Jesus and the Apostles has given to us.For a Christian, the bondage to sin has been broken, so we can joyfully obey and serve

Sure it's a big deal.
You don't seem to understand that when we're given a command it means that we can either OBEY IT OR NOT OBEY IT.

You don't seem to understand that this means that God has given us free will from the time of Adam and Eve.

Can you explain why God would give commands to persons that HE IS GOING TO DECREE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEIR ACTIONS.

For instance, here's another verse you could explain:

Ezekiel 7:8-9
8I am about to pour out my wrath on you
and spend my anger against you.
I will judge you according to your conduct
and repay you for all your detestable practices.
9I will not look on you with pity;
I will not spare you.
I will repay you for your conduct
and for the detestable practices among you.


You continue to tell us that God is a JUST GOD.
You've never really explained what JUST means however.

In the above God states He will repay according to one's conduct and practices.
Is this JUST if it's God that decrees that conduct and practice??
Please give us your understanding of the word JUST.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

So why did the Creator in the designing stage before He actually created this creation, choose to not give His creation (man and woman) the ability to choose whatever they wanted? What was/is His rationale?

Hi one2question,
Welcome to the forum!

Just a suggestion to post to a particular person.
You can use the REPLY button down at the right hand side OR
you could tag the person....use this sign @ and immediately followed by their name.
(you'll get more responses).

 

[GodsGrace]

Earlier I posted this;
No big deal. Christians obey all lawful commands Jesus and the Apostles has given to us.For a Christian, the bondage to sin has been broken, so we can joyfully obey and serve/

Let me expand on that, After dealing with how a lawful Government should be,[13:1-7] he turns to address individual believers, both Jew and gentile who are now part of the Kingdom of God.

They are to live in love which means obey the law in Christ...yes, the ten commandments as He explains in 8-10
Love is the fulfilling of the law


W...guess what, I have to disagree. Let me show you why. God had indeed ordained good works that we are to walk in.
Eph.2:10. The referring to commandment keeping is a part of the obedience of faith, romans 1 Rom16.We are called to holiness, so he mentions moving forward that we are to put on, or live, or walk as believers called out of darkness and the works thereof.



Sort of, but to really understand, we are called to be believer priests. Priests had a responsibility that in the OT, they often failed to do,like here; Ezk22
8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

9 In thee are men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they eat upon the mountains: in the midst of thee they commit lewdness.

10 In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.

11 And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.

12 In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord God.

26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

This violation invited the judgment of God. We as believer priests are ordained to walk in holiness. It is expected and not optional.

In 11-14 they are called to walk or live in Kingdom light, not mixing the holy with the profane. They are recent converts being instructed in what God would command them to do.
D. THE BELIEVER’S CIVIL OBLIGATION–CITIZENSHIP (13:1–14)
a) Our Attitude as Christians (13:1–5)
b) Our Allegiance as Christians (13:6–7)
b) Our Associations as Christians (13:8–10)
a) Our Actions as Christians

Thanks for replying in a serious manner.

My questions is of all importance:

Why is the above of any value IF it is GOD that decrees what we should do/behave/believe, etc.

The entire bible is meaningless IF it is God that predestinates/decrees everything that should be.

The priests violated God's law because HE so decreed.

Why should we be CALLED to live in holiness IF it's God that either decrees that we do or decrees that we do not?

You see Icon, as I've stated many times, the reformed faith makes no sense, and God is not a God of confusion.

Now, could you exegete that verse I gave you?
Thanks.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Junk food, drugs, cigarette, alcohol, video games, porn, tv shows, social media, shopping, gambling, you name it. Others include seemingly positive and productive activities such as meditating, working, cooking, exercising and cleaning. These are all coping mechanisms for the purpose of avoiding stress and seeking pleasure.

Those things were not included in Jesus's words.
He said the truth could free you from service to sin, in John 8:34.
But you add that "working" can free us from stress ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

All men are born slaves to sin, under the control/power of sin, so our will isnt free from the control/power of sin Rom 3:9

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
The word under here is the prep ὑπό:
to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing:

Paul made it clear in Rom 3's citings of OT scripture that even though the Jews had the Law, that they still needed the Redeemer.
The Jews were no better off than any Gentile.
But what of those who had no Law ?
What is a sin to someone who doesn't know it it is a sin to, say: commit adultery or steal ?
They can't be judged by the Law, but by their conscience.
Enoch was translated because he found favor with God...he wasn't "under sin".
Neither was Elijah, or John the Baptist.
Or Jesus.
Or any man who is "in Christ".

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you think I don't understand?

Hello W, Thanks for responding and asking good follow up questions. I will give one answer to this first question, by simply showing from your post here, why I suggest you do not yet...understand; you say this down below:

Can you explain why God would give commands to persons that HE IS GOING TO DECREE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEIR ACTIONS.

1]Everything that comes to pass, is decreed to come to pass.

2] because it is decreed to come to pass, does not mean God causes it to come to pass. You conflate these 2 things

3] That Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, he did that because of his own totally depraved nature, He did what he wanted to do. God providentially used his betrayal to send Jesus to the cross to accomplish redemption for His elect children. Did Judas struggle and say, no, I will never betray you, but then angels forced him to do it as if God caused it, NO!

4]Was Judas a hero? NO.

5] The cross was ordained to come to pass. Jesus willing did the will of the Father. Nevertheless it was by the hands of wicked men that it took place. God did not cause the men to scourge, and crucify Jesus; Acts2
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

6]The cross was ordained to take place, it did. It was decreed to accomplish the redemption of the Covenant Children, it did.

7] Secondary causes were used, not forced by God. The sinners do what they like to do,,,,sin...God does not force anyone to sin.

Why do you say that calvinism is not about what I FEEL?
What do feelings have to do with what we believe?
Do you even read my posts?
If not, just let me know and I'll never post to you again.

I read your posts. When you attack and make strawmen, and caricatures, I cannot let that slide by. I comment.
When people say, I feel, I do not like, I do not see how that can be, The god I worship does this, it is drifting into feelings and philosophy.

You're referring to scripture.
If I'm asking you to exegete a verse, doesn't that mean I'm using scripture???

That would mean you are asking me to use scripture. You using scripture would be you offering your understanding of the passages.

Sure it's a big deal.
You don't seem to understand that when we're given a command it means that we can either OBEY IT OR NOT OBEY IT.

A command in scripture, is not optional. Failure to obey is rebellion. Sin is never okay.

You don't seem to understand that this means that God has given us free will from the time of Adam and Eve.

Free will does not exist. We make choices that are bound by our nature. Even in heaven we would never be "free to sin"

Can you explain why God would give commands to persons that HE IS GOING TO DECREE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEIR ACTIONS.

He does not cause their actions. Once again anything that comes to pass is ordained to come to pass, but God does not cause each persons actions, they cause it.

For instance, here's another verse you could explain:

Ezekiel 7:8-9
8I am about to pour out my wrath on you
and spend my anger against you.
I will judge you according to your conduct
and repay you for all your detestable practices.
9I will not look on you with pity;
I will not spare you.
I will repay you for your conduct
and for the detestable practices among you.

Yes...Good verses...Men are responsible for their wickedness.

You continue to tell us that God is a JUST GOD.

From my website;https://bibleinteraction.freeforums.net/thread/304/gods-justice

You've never really explained what JUST means however.

God's Justice | Bibleinteraction

[b]VI. The justice of God is that essential property of his nature, which disposes him to render to himself, and to all his creatures, that

bibleinteraction.freeforums.net

In the above God states He will repay according to one's conduct and practices.
Is this JUST if it's God that decrees that conduct and practice??

Here is your error, coming from your keyboard. Man is the cause of his own sin, not God.
Man's sin does not surprise God. God uses the sin of man to accomplish His purposes in the long run.

Please give us your understanding of the word JUST.

God's Justice | Bibleinteraction

[b]VI. The justice of God is that essential property of his nature, which disposes him to render to himself, and to all his creatures, that

bibleinteraction.freeforums.net

You have looked here once before, much has been added, good study links, read through this link of more gifted persons as they open it up in great detail.

Thanks.

I can be quite civil when the other person is.:yes

 

[GodsGrace]

No I wont, you do it.

Here in Theology BF, we make an effort to respect each other.
The reason you won't exegete Romans 13:12-14 is because if you did it would prove Calvinism to be a religion that has many contradictions with the bible.

Romans 13:11-14
11And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Verse 11: The hour has come to wake up.
We must wake up....no one (incl God) is going to wake us up. Paul is telling believers to wake up...a command to do something. A command requires a choice to obey or disobey.

Verse 12: LET US PUT ASIDE...
Paul doesn't state that we're not to be concerned because God will take care of everything through decrees or predestination...
Paul is saying that WE are to PUT ASIDE...
WE are to take the action....

We are to PUT ON THE ARMOR of light (God).
We are to put it on.
This is a command that requires an action that we could either obey, or disobey.
Our CHOICE.

Verse 13: LET US BEHAVE...
Again, Paul is admonishing believers to behave.
Looks, again, like WE are the ones that are going to have to decide on an action.

And what are we not to do?
Sexual immoratlity is one of the choices....

Strange, Calvin stated that even RAPE could be used for good because God has predestinated EVERYTHING.

And yet, here is Paul, telling believers NOT TO ENGAGE in sexual immoratlity.

Something is amiss in the reformed religion.

And I HAVE exegeted Romans 13 for you and it was very easy BTW.
Why couldn't YOu do it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for replying in a serious manner.

Thanks for asking a sincere question

My questions is of all importance:

Why is the above of any value IF it is GOD that decrees what we should do/behave/believe, etc.

This is my second response to you today. I think I answered this in my previous response.

The entire bible is meaningless IF it is God that predestinates/decrees everything that should be.

The bible is the only meaningful thing we have in our lives. It alone is the special revelation that comes from God. Everything that has been planned and predestined has been made known to us;eph3
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The priests violated God's law because HE so decreed.

They sinned because they were unsaved natural men. They were profane. It leads up to Ezk34. where God Himself declares that He Himself will come as our Great Shepherd, as seen in Jn 10.

Why should we be CALLED to live in holiness IF it's God that either decrees that we do or decrees that we do not?

Saints are called to Holiness. We are still in non glorified bodies that are still able to sin. We are never free to sin.
In heaven will will no longer be able to sin. Titus2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

You see Icon, as I've stated many times, the reformed faith makes no sense, and God is not a God of confusion.

haha, God is not a God of confusion, agreed! You are a bit confused??? I say it is on you W, lol...you walked right into that one:yes

Now, could you exegete that verse I gave you?

I can

Thanks.

You are welcome

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Those things were not included in Jesus's words.
He said the truth could free you from service to sin, in John 8:34.
But you add that "working" can free us from stress ?

As long as we live, we’re sinners struggling with sin and in need of God’s salvation, the truth enlightens you about this and points you to Jesus, consider that our red pill that opens our eyes to see the Matrix we’re living in.

As for work, that depends on what kind of work. For a lot of people, making crafts, doing housework while listening to a podcast, playing an instrument, gardening in the yard, stuffs like these definitely can relieve stress. “Works of the law” don’t belong to this category, I’m afraid.

 

[Runningman]

Here in Theology BF, we make an effort to respect each other.
The reason you won't exegete Romans 13:12-14 is because if you did it would prove Calvinism to be a religion that has many contradictions with the bible.

Romans 13:11-14
11And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Verse 11: The hour has come to wake up.
We must wake up....no one (incl God) is going to wake us up. Paul is telling believers to wake up...a command to do something. A command requires a choice to obey or disobey.

Verse 12: LET US PUT ASIDE...
Paul doesn't state that we're not to be concerned because God will take care of everything through decrees or predestination...
Paul is saying that WE are to PUT ASIDE...
WE are to take the action....

We are to PUT ON THE ARMOR of light (God).
We are to put it on.
This is a command that requires an action that we could either obey, or disobey.
Our CHOICE.

Verse 13: LET US BEHAVE...
Again, Paul is admonishing believers to behave.
Looks, again, like WE are the ones that are going to have to decide on an action.

And what are we not to do?
Sexual immoratlity is one of the choices....

Strange, Calvin stated that even RAPE could be used for good because God has predestinated EVERYTHING.

And yet, here is Paul, telling believers NOT TO ENGAGE in sexual immoratlity.

Something is amiss in the reformed religion.

And I HAVE exegeted Romans 13 for you and it was very easy BTW.
Why couldn't YOu do it?

Indeed and well said. Where Reformed theologians tend to go too far is that just because some things can or are predestined therefore all things are predestined; I believe that cannot be further from the truth and is a fallacy. Jesus and the apostles did preach/teach on the willful cessation of sin. There will be those who will deny this because it does indeed cause a problem for each letter in Calvin's TULIP.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As long as we live, we’re sinners struggling with sin and in need of God’s salvation, the truth enlightens you about this and points you to Jesus, consider that our red pill that opens our eyes to see the Matrix we’re living in.

End that life now, with baptism into Christ and His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)
Be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), as a new creature reborn of God's seed. (1 John 3:9)

As for work, that depends on what kind of work. For a lot of people, making crafts, doing housework while listening to a podcast, playing an instrument, gardening in the yard, stuffs like these definitely can relieve stress.

OK, but you seem to have veered away from your point.

“Works of the law” don’t belong to this category, I’m afraid.

Thank God !