Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[gordon777]

Now free will speaks this way, of the beseeching by the meekness of Christ, to not war after the flesh, but to have the weapons of our warfare mighty through God to pull down the strong holds of the enemy ( of all righteousness) to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

As we are told about through the mercy of Israel the Gentiles had obtained mercy, now through the Gentiles mercy the Jews would obtain mercy. ( to be all joined together as one.)

We are the people of God because we had not in the past obtained mercy, but now we have obtained, we are beseeched as those strangers to abstain from fleshy lusts which war against the soul, to have our conversation honest among the Gentiles, so they see the good works and glorify God in the day of visitation.



2 Corinthians 10:1Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

 

[Kermos]

Kermos , you are in for treat ! Stand back ! Not too close lest you be hit by a wing as hawkman takes flight ! ! To never return to this thread . Freeeeeewill in action !! Watch him soar !

I am sincerely saddened to read that you are disengaging from this edifying discussion about the Word of God.

I do not fear your wing, hawkman.

Your action is not free-will, but, rather, your action is self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) according to Holy Scripture. Free-will is not a thing in Holy Scripture just as is Scripturally shown in this thread, The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God.

And, in this vein, we find in reference to "will":

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

IMAGINE a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting through the curves.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to navigate the streets". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

On the other hand, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car" "engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached" in reference to free-will, whether such philosophers like it or not.

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:14) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[gordon777]

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

What richness you have, to show to everyone one verse for your understanding.

What is the way the truth and the life, by Jesus Christ. ( according to the rest of the chapter, for context and a little more truth than one verse wonders.)

It is from henceforth seeing the Father, it is the words that Jesus Christ speaks to us, it is the works that the Father does in the Son.

It is hearing the words here in the chapter of Christ, telling us to believe Him, that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, or to believe Jesus for the very works sake.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.




Now Kermos, here are some of your other verses, you think you can use for speaking about no will of man. ( you are now seeing the opposite revealed.)

The Jews of Israel naturally, ( having a zeal of God but not according to knowledge) ask Jesus to tell them plainly who He was. Jesus told them, ( plainly) they do not believe in the works that the Son did in the Fathers name, which bear witness of Him.

The sheep, Jesus explains, believe, hearing HI voice to follow Him. ( the sheep believe in the works Jesus showed.)

Jesus tells the Jews again of the Father and the Son being one. ( as told to Philip to believe that the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, or else to believe for the very works sake.)



John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.



Jesus again tries to tell the Jews of Israel, how they are reasoning wrongly, to assume Christ is blaspheming, when He tells them He is the Son of God, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world.

Jesus tells the Jews further, if He was not doing the works of the Father, to then not believe.

Jesus finally tells them, if He is indeed doing the works, even though they do not believe Jesus, to believe in the works, The son does in the Fathers name.) so that they can then know AND BELIEVE, that the Father is in Christ, and Christ is in the Father.



John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[gordon777]

I again and last time call on the moderator of the theology forum, to reads this carefully.

I want it looked into, if Kermos is presenting his case for Jesus Christ, or not for, and if not for, to remove any threads, ( including this one) from theology, that do not honour the Lord Jesus Christ, in a good intention of a created thread.



It is a very bad practise to talk about Jesus Christ, and to include almost nothing of what He says, instead of resisting when many verses are included from the same chapter. ( that is more truthful.)



The Father shows the Son the greater works, so the disciples of Christ can marvel.

This is raising the dead and quickening them. This is because all judgment is committed to the Son, to honour the Son even as they honour the Father.

Jesus shows how we have to hear HIs word and believe on the Father who sent the Son, to not come into condemnation and to pass from death to life.

This is the hour in which all the dead can hear the voice of the Son of God and live.

This is because the Son is given to have life in Himself, authority to execute the judgement of these works, because He is the Son of man.

All come forth form the graves, who hear HIs voice, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. ( because it matters how we hear, and what we do with what we hear. Luke 8:18 James 1:22.)




John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.



Finally in the same chapter, Jesus tells the Jews of Israel how He speaks these things so they might be saved. ( not so they are made irrelevant by the many false teachers who rise to deceive many.)

Jesus does not receive testimony from man, ( even John the Baptist cannot add or take away from these testimonies of Jesus Christs own word.) because Jesus Christ has greater witness than that of John, it is the works the Father gave the Son to FINISH.

These same works of what the Son finishes, bear witness of Christ, ( as Jesus told to the Jews of Israel again at John 10:24-25.) that the Father sent Him.( to die and rise again for our sins and forgiveness.)

Jesus implores the Jews to search the scriptures, ( because all of this testimony Jesus gives them is the truth as also told in the scriptures they have.) which is how we come to Jesus to have the life He spoke about having. ( believing in the works He does in the Fathers name, which testify of Him.)

Jesus testifies also how they show no love of God in them, because Jesus did not come in His own name but the Father sent Him, and they do not honour Him, but if any other comes or speaks in their own name, they receive those persons, instead of the honour that comes from God ONLY.



John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

 

[Kermos]

Israel did not choose faith, we have to do better and have faith is told therefore...

People in self-will always choose away from God (2 Peter 2:9-10), and if a person thinks "I chose Jesus" then that person failed to choose the One True God and Lord Jesus Christ who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Faith is imparted into people of God's choosing for Lord Jesus Christ says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), not of man (Ephesians 2:8-10), but truly of God (John 3:3-8).

You failed to provide a Scriptural example of free-will choosing Jesus.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

You failed to provide a Scriptural example of free-will choosing Jesus.

All of we Christian's labor is caused by God controlling us because Lord Jesus Christ of us Christians says
“he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” John 3:21), so the good labor mentioned in Hebrews 4:11 is controlled by God.

Hebrews 4:11 contains not free-will.

Mary heard the word, Martha did serving and wanted to take Mary away from hearing to be distracted by serving.

That same way is told for us all, to lay apart what distracts us to hear the word.


Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

You failed to provide a Scriptural example of free-will choosing Jesus.

We find Jesus being the Chooser in the passage with Mary at Jesus' feet while she listened to His powerful words as recorded in Luke 10:41-42.

There is no free-will in Luke 10:41-42, Mark 4:19, James 1:18, nor James 1:21.

Not chosen to believe in what you show, but to believe in all Christ has shown. ( or they return to the world, never left the world, are not in any hand but their own.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

In the post to which you replied, since you have been shown Lord Jesus Christ sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and Lord Jesus Christ sayings of
"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), then your writings equate to you calling Jesus a deceiver.

You failed to provide a Scriptural example of free-will choosing Jesus.

There is no free-will in Mark 4:24.

We are revealed by what is told in Matthew in the parables, proof of that is in Matthew 11, how those who refused to repent are guilty, because they have no excuse...

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Behold gordon777, Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, all cities which Lord Jesus pronounced woe against them, they are all examples of unrepentant people who were against God (Matthew 11:20-24).

Our wonderful God causes us Christians to repent for the Christ of us Christians says “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).

You failed to provide a Scriptural example of free-will choosing Jesus.

There is no free-will in Matthew 11:20-24.

Here is free will taught to you Kermos, by me.

"They shall not teach, each his neighbor, and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because all will know Me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Hebrews 8:11, see also Jeremiah 31:34), so you demonstrate your misunderstanding of Scripture with your "Here is free will taught to you Kermos, by me" yet again, oh, but wait, you are NOT teaching "know the Lord" because you are teaching "know man" that free-will man is sovereign while the Lord is not sovereign.

I proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to you, and the Truth (John 14:6) is that man does not have a free-will, and no Scripture states man has a free-will.

continued to post #26

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #25

Jesus tells the Jews to search the scriptures, as they testify of Christ, but shows they have no love of God in them, as Christ came in the Fathers name, ( which we see by searching the scriptures and as I am sharing with Kermos right now) but they do not search, do not see, did not receive, but they are unjust in their pride, so when another comes in their own name, ( many false teachers now) the people believe in those liars.

Jesus then tells the Jews to judge with righteous judgement, not the appearance as they where using for their judgement.

Jesus then tells the Jews, how they should love Him, because the Father sent Him, He did not come of Himself.

They did not hear HIs word, as the word might not be heard now, ( through pride of man) being of the devil they do not abide in the truth but speak ,lies when they speak.

ONLY BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS TOLD, IS WHY THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THEREFORE.

What excuse or reason is left for them to not believe the truth when told ?

All that was shown is that they are not of God wont search the scriptures, wont stop believing those who spe3ak in their own name, wont stop the pride of the devil, wont be of God who did not come in HIs own name who they should love, not show they hate. ( they are despisers of those who are good, and are NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK EVIL OF DIGNITIES.)


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.



2 Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

You failed to provide a Scriptural example of free-will choosing Jesus in John 5:39-44 and John 7:23-24 and John 8:42-47 and 2 Timothy 3:3 and Jude 1:8.

Just like you opened your post with people who in self-will always choose away from God (2 Peter 2:9-10), and if a person thinks "I chose Jesus" then that person failed to choose the One True God and Lord Jesus Christ who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you[/color}" (John 15:16).

You brought up:

Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
(Jude 1:8)
​

Which sounds a lot like the Apostle Peter's description of self-willed persons:

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10)
​

There is no such thing as free-will, so all you are left with is self-will, gordon777.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Runningman]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

• God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
  AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
  AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
  YET a command does not convey ability
  BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
  NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
  IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
  AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
  THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
  THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
  SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
  AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
  SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
  AND the firm fact is established
  THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
• The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
• Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
  • The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
    SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
    THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
    IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
    THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
    BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
    THEREFORE it follows that man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
    COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adams will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
    1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
    2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
    3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
    4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
    5. Man's free will is a precept of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9)
  • Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
    SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
    AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
    AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Job 42:2)
    THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
    SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
    SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
    THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
  • The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
    BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
    AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
    FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
    YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
    THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" Genesis 2:17)
    THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened (perceived) and followed her word about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
    SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
    AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
    SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
    YET action is the context
    SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
  • An inherently good Adam would have assuredly and absolutely excluded eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    BECAUSE an inherently good Adam would have acted in the good way of obedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17)
    WITH the good way being God's Way (John 14:6)
    YET "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
    AND it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31)
    NOTE in "it was very good", the word "it" is grammatically a third person singular thus referring to the entirety of creation being constructed well (good) on course with God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
    YET the word "it" is not third person plural as in "they were very good" of which a third person plural is required in order to refer to an individual such as Adam or the Devil the Serpent
    AND the Word of God specifically excludes Adam from being good with "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
    SO the spirit of antichrist preaches that Adam with all mankind as good for any amount of time thus nullifying the need for the Savior
    BEHOLD that God saw the whole package, the complete creation, the "all" that He had made, that it was very good
    BUT God did not specify how the aggregate (all) that He had made was very good therein
    AND God did not specify any constituents of creation as being inherently good therein
    AND God creating "all that He had made" for God in Jesus Christ to come to earth to save evil man is very good
    SO with certainty, God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good
  • The attribute of "joining" - marriage
    1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
    2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ, that is, the Assembly of God
    3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
    4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
    5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
    6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
    7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
    THEREFORE God exclusively causes individuals to join into the Assembly of God.

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor.

Yes I believe Adam was given free will with the consequences and stakes being quite high. However, it was one of those "You had one job and you mucked it up..." kind of completely avoidable errors.

However, Adam being placed near a dangerous tree in paradise may not seem like the kind of best environment for him, i.e., we don't build our children's playpen next to the freeway if we can avoid it and I don't believe God does either.

It makes me think the presence of this tree containing knowledge was something that wasn't avoidable in the first place. It's possible it may be symbolism and not a literal tree, too, since we don't know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it. For example, God also has the knowledge of good and evil according to Genesis 3:22 but He probably didn't eat literal fruit.

 

[gordon777]

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

All of your lengthy rejection, was for very little. ( the words given to you stand very firm.)


Jesus Christ chooses all He chooses, to be soldiers, to fight a good warfare of faith. ( to every man a measure of faith is given.)

Faith is enabled through the preaching of faith. ( WHICH WAS PREAXCHED TO EVERY CREATURE.)



Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached TO EVERY CREATURE which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:


2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

 

[Johann!@#]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

Just a matter of time-
Jewish Aspects
Amongst the ancient Jews three sects were segregated on the
basis of fundamental theological disagreements: the Essenes were
extreme proponents for an absolute fatalistic theory. Acceptance of
this position precludes the very basic right and need for seeking
medical help; the Sadduceans believed in absolute free will with no
divine providence, thus ascribing every action to mere chance; the
Pharisees accepted a theory that combines human free choice
together with divine providence, which is a form of determinism.
According to this theory, God determines the rules and actions in
the universe and supervises human deeds, but there exists a definite
and extensive range of human freedom of mind. This approach is
.
5. Wolff RP (1970). In Defense of Anarchism. New-York: Harper & Row, p.14.
6. Dworkin G (1982). Autonomy and informed consent. In: President’s Commission for
the Study of Ethical Problems in Medicine and Biomedical and Behavioral Research. Making Health Care Decisions, Vol. III, Washington, DC, pp. 63-81.
Free Will vs. Determinism in Bioethics 91


beautifully and concisely summarized by the Sages: “All is foreseen,
but the choice is given.”7

This idea was further elaborated upon by
the Jewish sages in the Talmud,8
and extended in depth by the
Medieval Jewish philosophers and legalists. The vast majority of
them expressed their profound belief in the free will of man,
considering this to be an essential prerequisite for moral conduct
according to Judaism.

Maimonides, for instance, stated that every
person can choose to be good or evil, with no divine predeterminism. If it were not so, he stated, the entire Torah would be
purposeless, with no justification to punish the wicked or reward
the righteous.

However, Maimonides and other Jewish scholars,
realized the inherent religious conflict between human freedom
and God’s knowledge and providence.

Various ways to reconcile
between these ideas were proposed, and several attempts were
undertaken to assess the quantitative input of each of them into a
given action or behavior. These deliberations, however, are beyond
the scope of this article [for further details see reference 9,9 pp.71-
73].

The Jewish point of view can be summarized in the following
way: free will need not be interpreted as absolute libertarianism,
whereas determinism need not be comprehended in an absolute
fashion. So that human behavior and actions are not either free or
determined; rather they are both free and determined, in a relative
admixture.

Thus, Judaism acknowledges the ability of freedom of
the mind.

The approval of medicine in normative Jewish law is
based on the rejection of absolute determinism. According to the
Talmud and its main interpretor,10 the engagement in medical
practice is permissible, disclaiming the notion that by doing so one
is abrogating God’s deeds.
The right to execute autonomous decisions, however, has
several restrictions and limitations.
Indeed, one of the most significant differences between current
secular and Jewish medical ethics concerns the principle of autonomy. Current general medical ethics has overwhelmingly shifted
the focus of decision-making from the physician to the patient, thus
.
7. Mishna Avot 3:15.
8. Urbach EE(1976). The Sages – Their concepts and Beliefs (Hebrew), Jerusalem:
Magnes, pp. 227-253.
9. Steinberg A (1988). Encyclopedia Hilchatit-Refuit. Vol. I, Jerusalem.
10. Baba Kama 85a, and Rashi there.
92 Jewish Medical Ethics

ascribing the primacy of autonomy in the physician-patient
relationship to the patient. The principle of autonomy has become
absolute, taking precedence over all other values such as life and
beneficence.
It is pertinent to cite some of the critique of this approach by
Pellegrino and Thomasma.11 They suggest that the practical
question in clinical decisions is not whether or not we have a right
to autonomy; we most certainly do. Rather, the question focuses on
the proper exercise of autonomy.

Do we have a right to exercise
autonomy when the decision we wish to make is not morally good?
Are we free to make morally wrong decisions? Have we lost a
common consensus on morals to such a degree that there is no
longer any community of values? Are there any other values in
common other than autonomy?

By promoting autonomy to the
extreme overriding power, are we not promoting a degradation of
moral life and principles? Does this approach not educate to
amoral or even immoral life? Can a society survive such radical
pluralism in which there are no longer any shared values?
Engelhardt12 argues that full freedom and autonomy must be
guaranteed, even if these appear wrongheaded or downright offensive and evil to others, in order to maintain a peaceable society.

The right of autonomy in this libertarian view takes precedence
over the good. This retreat to private morality eventually leads to a
moral atomism in which each individual’s moral beliefs and actions
– unless they disturb the peaceable community – are unassailable.
Moral debate thus becomes futile, since each person is his/her own
arbiter of right and good. The traditional notion of ethics as
reasoned public discourse in search of the common good is
discarded.

Pellegrino and Thomasma11 argue that the approach of Engelhardt is wrong, and autonomy cannot and should not overrule all
other values.

In their view, an ethic based on beneficence more
fully embraces the nuances of the patient’s best interests.
Judaism ascribes to a higher order of moral conduct, which
obligates the individual and society. Autonomy as a concept of
respect for others is highly valued and demanded. However,
.
11. Pellegrino E, Thomasma DC. For the Patient’s Good. Oxford University Press, NewYork, 1988.
12. Engelhardt HT. The Foundations of Bioethics. Oxford University Press, New-York,
1986.

Free Will vs. Determinism in Bioethics 93--

autonomous decisions that do not comply with the required moral
standard are overridden by higher moral values, as determined by
the halacha and a value system which governs the life of each
individual, patient and physician alike.
Judaism restricts the notion of autonomy to actions that are
morally indifferent. Where conflicting values arise each individual
is bound to act in order to achieve self-fulfillment. Thus, everyone
is duty-bound to act according to that standard and to relinquish his
temporary wishes.

Therefore, in medical situations that involve
ethical conflicts, the solution is based on the appropriate Jewish law
which governs both the physician and the patient. This approach
can be termed a Moral-Religious Paternalism as oppossed to the
Hippocratic Individual-Personal Paternalism of the physician.
The enhancement of individual freedom to the point of
destroying moral values in medicine cannot be considered as the
best resolution to complex ethical dilemmas in medicine. There
need be a set of common and shared values which both the patient
and the physician will obey, and this is what Judaism offers those
who follow this way of life.

Thus, the right of free will is waived
when in conflict with certain other values.

Judaism places great
importance on self-fulfillment and refinement in the spirit of moral
and religious commandments. Therefore, values directed to achieve
this goal are superior to the principle of autonomy when in conflict.
On the other hand, the basic principle of self-determination, and
particularly the moral and religious demand to respect other human
beings, is highly advanced in Jewish thought. This was stated in
several epigrams: Do not do unto others what is hated upon
yourself;13 Respect your fellowman as you would have him respect
you.14 According to one of the talmudic sages, the biblical verse:
Love thy neighbor as thyself – is the essence of the whole Torah.15

Free Will vs. Determinism
in Bioethics:
Comparative Philosophical and
Jewish Perspectives
Avraham Steinberg, M.D.

I am all for-"we did not choose God or Christ" but AFTER regeneration we have free will to make daily choices-we are going to give an account based on our words, thoughts and actions brother-preach the Gospel.
J.

 

[JLB]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

• God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
  AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
  AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
  YET a command does not convey ability
  BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
  NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
  IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
  AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
  THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
  THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
  SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
  AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
  SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
  AND the firm fact is established
  THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
• The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
• Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
  • a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

• of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat

Adam had a choice to make.

Obey the LORD or disobey the LORD.

Adam chose to disobey the LORD and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:6


Today, mankind also has a choice to make each and everyday;
obey the LORD or not.


Those who obey the LORD will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him… Hebrews 5:9



I find nothing in your post that indicates mankind does not posses the ability to choose good or evil; righteousness or unrighteousness.




JLB

 

[gordon777]

Judaism places great
importance on self-fulfillment and refinement in the spirit of moral
and religious commandments. Therefore, values directed to achieve
this goal are superior to the principle of autonomy when in conflict.
On the other hand, the basic principle of self-determination, and
particularly the moral and religious demand to respect other human
beings, is highly advanced in Jewish thought. This was stated in
several epigrams: Do not do unto others what is hated upon
yourself;13 Respect your fellowman as you would have him respect
you.14 According to one of the talmudic sages, the biblical verse:
Love thy neighbor as thyself – is the essence of the whole Torah.15

Free Will vs. Determinism
in Bioethics:
Comparative Philosophical and
Jewish Perspectives
Avraham Steinberg, M.D.

I am all for-"we did not choose God or Christ" but AFTER regeneration we have free will to make daily choices-we are going to give an account based on our words, thoughts and actions brother-preach the Gospel.
J.

No need for preaching the gospel, as knowledge only puffs people up, charity ( love in deed and truth) edifies.


1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Kermos]

Jesus chose one who is a devil also, who had to be rejected. ( all chosen devils would have to be rejected.)



John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.



Apostle Paul likewise was a chosen vessel, and feared to not preach the gospel.


Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.




This explains who God has chosen and the purpose of it all. ( if Kermos cannot acknowledge any of this, that is taking the purpose away from God.)


Gods purpose is told, God chooses the foolish to confound the wise, God choses the base and despised who are nothing, to bri9ng to nothing those who are, ( in this world) so no flesh can glory in the presence of God.

Those who Go has chosen, ( who are nothing, to bring to nothing those who are) then have a requirement from God, which is to please God who has chosen them to be this type of soldier.

Paul tells why he obtained mercy of the Lord, to show that pattern of all longsuffering to those who would after believe on Christ to life eternal.

The charge Paul gives to timothy is then the same we are given, to war a good warfare. ( holding faith and not being faithless, to please God as a good soldier of faith.)

That choosing is explained again, how God has chosen the poor, as they are the ones rich in faith, unlike the rich in wealth of this world, who are rich only in pride.




1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Kermos has free will, can now show he is responding to the request to just present his case.

The chosen are not chosen and they have no requirements, that is leaving out all the rest of what is explained.

W are required to endure hardness as a good solder of Christ


2 Timothy 2:Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Kermos is only wise in wisdom, to be seen to acknowledge these things, how can it be the wisdom that is above simply consenting to what is told in the verses ?

That kind of wisdom is described, as earthy, devilish. ( when without humility)

But the wisdom that is from above is without strife, which is AGAINST THE TRUTH, the wisdom that is from above is first pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, ( kindness charity) without partiality and without hypocrisy. ( no teaching of our own ideas, just acknowledgment of what is witnessed in the scriptures, and living them in longsuffering to follow Christ, which is the Apostles example to also follow after.)



1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Now free will speaks this way, of the beseeching by the meekness of Christ, to not war after the flesh, but to have the weapons of our warfare mighty through God to pull down the strong holds of the enemy ( of all righteousness) to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

As we are told about through the mercy of Israel the Gentiles had obtained mercy, now through the Gentiles mercy the Jews would obtain mercy. ( to be all joined together as one.)

We are the people of God because we had not in the past obtained mercy, but now we have obtained, we are beseeched as those strangers to abstain from fleshy lusts which war against the soul, to have our conversation honest among the Gentiles, so they see the good works and glorify God in the day of visitation.



2 Corinthians 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

You posted about 1,500 words there, gordon777, but not one Holy Scripture smong them states man has free-will.

The verses you cited are truly absent of free-will, and here is your no free-will list of passages: John 6:70, John 13:18, 1 Corinthians 9:16-17, Acts 9:15, Acts 22:14, 1 Corinthians 1:27-29, 1 Timothy 1:16-19, 2 Timothy 2:4, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:1-3, 1 Timothy 6:3-5, James 3:13-18, 2 Corinthians 10:1-6, and 1 Peter 2:10-12.

You wrote with extreme illogical thinking, specifically when you wrote "The chosen are not chosen".

To the Majestic King Jesus Christ, Lord and God, be all glory for the salvation of every man! The Sovereign Lord be exalted forever and ever! Praise His Holy Name!

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[gordon777]

Every scripture is showing man has free will, they are for us to regard or disregard, so far they seem a little disregarded is all.

 

[Kermos]

What richness you have, to show to everyone one verse for your understanding.

What is the way the truth and the life, by Jesus Christ. ( according to the rest of the chapter, for context and a little more truth than one verse wonders.)

It is from henceforth seeing the Father, it is the words that Jesus Christ speaks to us, it is the works that the Father does in the Son.

It is hearing the words here in the chapter of Christ, telling us to believe Him, that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, or to believe Jesus for the very works sake.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.




Now Kermos, here are some of your other verses, you think you can use for speaking about no will of man. ( you are now seeing the opposite revealed.)

The Jews of Israel naturally, ( having a zeal of God but not according to knowledge) ask Jesus to tell them plainly who He was. Jesus told them, ( plainly) they do not believe in the works that the Son did in the Fathers name, which bear witness of Him.

The sheep, Jesus explains, believe, hearing HI voice to follow Him. ( the sheep believe in the works Jesus showed.)

Jesus tells the Jews again of the Father and the Son being one. ( as told to Philip to believe that the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, or else to believe for the very works sake.)



John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.



Jesus again tries to tell the Jews of Israel, how they are reasoning wrongly, to assume Christ is blaspheming, when He tells them He is the Son of God, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world.

Jesus tells the Jews further, if He was not doing the works of the Father, to then not believe.

Jesus finally tells them, if He is indeed doing the works, even though they do not believe Jesus, to believe in the works, The son does in the Fathers name.) so that they can then know AND BELIEVE, that the Father is in Christ, and Christ is in the Father.



John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Hello gordon777 and wondering (you "thumbs up" gordon777's post),

Lord Jesus Christ says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

Therefore, My Loving Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and there is no deceit in Him (1 Peter 2:22)!

With all this being written, Truth (John 14:6) is of the Holy God, YHWH, yet, in contrast, lies/deception are of the Devil (John 8:44).

See, the Lord Christ says that He alone causes a person to come to the God with "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6), so "God causes persons to come to God".

This "God causes persons to come to God" per Jesus Christ (John 14:6) is just like when the Word of God says “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)!

Praise the Lord, here we find the Word of God declaring that every Christian's every good deed/work (John 3:21) is caused by God, and these deeds/works are called fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), no good deeds/works are caused by man, but good deeds/works are caused by God for "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).

The Word of God says the believe in His words of "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves" (John 14:11) is caused by God because the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, that believe is by no means caused by man (Ephesians 2:8-10).

All glory in the salvation of man is exclusively God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

And all this harkins to the Christ of us Christians saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Man is incapable of choosing the One True Holy God!

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will, not in John 14:6-11 nor John 10:24-30 nor John 10:36-38.

Every "believe in Christ" in those passages can only become reality upon God causing the "believe in Christ" as per Christ's words recorded in John 6:29.

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can take of that which is holy through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing a person to be born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[gordon777]

Lord Jesus Christ says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

Therefore, My Loving Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and there is no deceit in Him (1 Peter 2:22)!

With all this being written, Truth (John 14:6) is of the Holy God, YHWH, yet, in contrast, lies/deception are of the Devil (John 8:44).

See, the Lord Christ says that He alone causes a person to come to the God with "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6), so "God causes persons to come to God".

This "God causes persons to come to God" per Jesus Christ (John 14:6) is just like when the Word of God says “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)!

Praise the Lord, here we find the Word of God declaring that every Christian's every good deed/work (John 3:21) is caused by God, and these deeds/works are called fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), no good deeds/works are caused by man, but good deeds/works are caused by God for "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).

The Word of God says the believe in His words of "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves" (John 14:11) is caused by God because the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, that believe is by no means caused by man (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Just as Adam was given the word of God to believe, we received again the word of God by Jesus Christ being in the world, declaring the Father, for us to believe in.

That is what you showed that Jesus Christ is the way, so we all know what the way is, as it is declared. That links John 1:18 with John 14:6. God does cause people to come to Him, by what is declared, not WITHOUT IT.



John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the FATHER, he hath declared HIM.



Now Kermos the teacher, just turn the page to chapter 2, its really that simple, and see exactly where Jesus begins to declare to the Jews of Israel of THE FATHER.


John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not MY FATHERS house an house of merchandise.



But just like Kermos is showing himself to be, the Jews question Jesus instead of doing as He had told them of the Father, to not make merchandise out of the house of God, as Israel was doing in the temple of God.

The Jews requested a sign, seeing Jesus was doing these things.

Jesus continues to declare the Father. ( how nobody goes to the Father but through the Son, as He is the way and the truth and the life.)

Jesus tells the Jews, the temple ( of God) if destroyed by those same bad behaving Jews of Israel, would be risen up again. ( by God/Jesus Christ.)

Jesus spoke of the temple of HIs body, as this is where the way and the truth and the ,life are, when Jesus Christ rose the third day, and we see through this declaration the disciples are able to believe the scripture and the word which Jesus had said. ( likewise Kermos can be believe in what is declared, if Kermos wants to acknowledge and not deny, as he who practices truth comes to the truth to show his deeds are wrought in God and not the devil, who denied what God had said to Adam so Adam and his wife were beguiled to hear the serpent.)


John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

All glory in the salvation of man is exclusively God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

And all this harkins to the Christ of us Christians saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Man is incapable of choosing the One True Holy God!

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will, not in John 14:6-11 nor John 10:24-30 nor John 10:36-38.

Every "believe in Christ" in those passages can only become reality upon God causing the "believe in Christ" as per Christ's words recorded in John 6:29.

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can take of that which is holy through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing a person to be born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

Christ chooses us, to be soldiers of faith.



Going quiet for a while is not avoiding the truth it is making it worth bringing back.



We have the way told to us to follow, showing no interest in what is told is not showing no free will, it is showing no interest in having the will of God in holiness, no interest in turning from darkness to light, and from the power of satan to God, to ARM OURSELVES WITH THE SAME MIND OF CHRIST, to no longer live the rest of our time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.



Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

 

[gordon777]

The Father is declared, if we believe in the declaration of the Father, we believe in Jesus Christ rising from the dead, in a good conscience and the love He showed for us while yet sinners, we know this is forgiveness and we know it is only from God, holy to lay HIs life down for us,, and we stop these vain discussions and go and love others, with the same love of God we found out about that lives, in us.

 

[gordon777]

Now free will is established that we all have it, it all comes down to belief, whether a person believes in strife, and all the debate predicted for the ending time now, and engages in it, or sees this is the entrapment of the devil, and it is part of the reason forums are made, apart from seeing it put straight from crookedness. ( but who shows any interest in the will of God/in true holiness, and not only having the form of godliness.)


2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.



2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

 

[gordon777]

Acts 26 is what first happened with the chosen Apostle Paul, ( turning from the power of satan unto God) and how Paul went preaching to the people, as instructed by Christ.

Below this is continued, how Paul answers how he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, ( but he obeyed and did as told) that all should likewise repent ( not be disobedient to the calling) but should turn to God and do what us right for repentance.


Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

 

[gordon777]

John 1:18 is the beginning of what the Son of God is doing on earth, declaring the Father.


John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.



Jesus shows He has chosen the Apostles, and they kept the word of the Father.


The Apostles then knew ( believed) that all things what the Father has given are of the Father, ( declaring the Father.) as the Son gave the Apostles, ( and to us all) the words of the Father, and they received them, ( as Apostle Paul was not disobedient to them.) and they know surely that the Son came out from the Father, as they BELIEVED, that the Father sent Jesus Christ. ( the Son)

Jesus prays to the Father to keep the Apostles ( and all who will believe) through HIs own name, as the Son while in the world kept the Apostles had kept them in the name of the Father, ( declaring the Father. John 1:16-18.) the Son knows the Father and the Apostles know that the Father had sent the Son. ( into the world)

The Son declared to the Apostles ( and to all) the name of the Father, ( declaring the Father John 1:18.) and would declare it, ( the living name when Christ arises from the dead) that the love of the Father loving the Son may be in them, ( the Apostles and all who believe in the Father) and He ( Jesus Christ. ) in them.



John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello gordon777 and wondering (you "thumbs up" gordon777's post),

Lord Jesus Christ says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

Therefore, My Loving Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and there is no deceit in Him (1 Peter 2:22)!

With all this being written, Truth (John 14:6) is of the Holy God, YHWH, yet, in contrast, lies/deception are of the Devil (John 8:44).

Agreed.

See, the Lord Christ says that He alone causes a person to come to the God with "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6), so "God causes persons to come to God".

Where in John 14:6 does it state that God CAUSES all persons to come to God?
John 14:1-6
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
4“And you know the way where I am going.”
5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus told the Apostles He was going to prepare a home for them and that He would come back to them.
Jesus told them that they knew THE WAY/ROAD that He was going.
They told Jesus they did not know WHERE He was going, so how could they know the way.
They were told that Jesus is the way/the road to get to God.
IOW, IF we follow Jesus we will know the way to get to where God is.
Because Jesus is the WAY and the TRUTH and He gives to us LIFE everlasting.
Nothing about God causing person to go to God.
You see things in verses that are not present due to your preconceived ideas.

This "God causes persons to come to God" per Jesus Christ (John 14:6) is just like when the Word of God says “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)!

Correct. Those that PRACTICE the truth - being faithful to God and receiving Him into their lives - do come to the truth.
John 14:6 plainly states that we need Jesus' light to get to God.
Those that love the light will come to God.

John 1:9-13
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Above John is speaking of Jesus.
Jesus enlightens every man.
But His own, the Jews, did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, He gave the right to be called children of God.
Jesus had to be received...
No mention of God causing a person to receive Jesus.
They had to receive Him of their own free will.

Praise the Lord, here we find the Word of God declaring that every Christian's every good deed/work (John 3:21) is caused by God, and these deeds/works are called fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), no good deeds/works are caused by man, but good deeds/works are caused by God for "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).

Could you please explain how you get God CAUSING our good works from
John 3:21...
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

The Word of God says the believe in His words of "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves" (John 14:11) is caused by God because the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, that believe is by no means caused by man (Ephesians 2:8-10).

All glory in the salvation of man is exclusively God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

And all this harkins to the Christ of us Christians saying:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

"You did not choose me but I chose you" is referring to the Apostles.
Jesus chose the Apostles.
Read some reliable commentaries and please stop saying this...
all Calvinists state this - twisting scripture to mean what they THINK it states.

Man is incapable of choosing the One True Holy God!

Then why does Joshua tell the Israelites to CHOOSE who they will serve?
Joshua 24:15
15But if you refuse to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve.

No Holy Scripture states man has a free-will, not in John 14:6-11 nor John 10:24-30 nor John 10:36-38.

Every "believe in Christ" in those passages can only become reality upon God causing the "believe in Christ" as per Christ's words recorded in John 6:29.

Why would God tell us TO DO something HE is going to cause??
If God tells us TO DO something, it means we have the capability to actually do it.

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can take of that which is holy through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing a person to be born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I agree. We can either obey the Holy Spirit and follow God,
or we do not.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

Where in Genesis does it state that Adam did NOT have free will?