Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[GodsGrace]

It's the fulfillment of the OT, aka the Scriptures at the time. There's profound truth in it which is still alive and active today.

That's not an answer.
You said the NT holds the truth.
I asked you how you could know since you didn't agree with me.
Your answer is because it has the truth.
That's called circular reasoning.
Care to try again?
HOW do you know the NT is telling us the truth?

 

[Kermos]

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

• of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat

Adam had a choice to make.

Obey the LORD or disobey the LORD.

Adam chose to disobey the LORD and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:6


Today, mankind also has a choice to make each and everyday;
obey the LORD or not.


Those who obey the LORD will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him… Hebrews 5:9



I find nothing in your post that indicates mankind does not posses the ability to choose good or evil; righteousness or unrighteousness.




JLB

When you wrote "Adam had a choice to make. Obey the LORD or disobey the LORD.", then you conveyed that Adam had knowledge of good in order for Adam to free-will choose the good of obeying the Word of God thus by extension you conveyed Adam has the knowledge of good to even choose YHWH God.

But, The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil (the sixth bullet point of the original post, the post you mentioned in your closing paragraph) shows that Adam did NOT know good and evil, so Adam could not choose the good because Adam did not know good.

Furthermore, Adam could not choose the evil because Adam did not know evil.

See, the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:6 both mention action for Adam, not choice by Adam, but truly Adam's action of eating or not eating. Later, after these passages, the Word of God declared:

Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever
(Genesis 3:22)
​

So, it was not until after Adam ate of the tree forbidden as food that Adam knew good and evil because the Word of God says "the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil".

The Word of God is absent of any mention of "choose" in the creation account.

The Holy Scripture is absent of man being imparted free-will.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That's not an answer.
You said the NT holds the truth.
I asked you how you could know since you didn't agree with me.
Your answer is because it has the truth.
That's called circular reasoning.
Care to try again?
HOW do you know the NT is telling us the truth?

OK, how do I know it's true? Out of personal experience. For instance, ever heard of virtue signaling? That's modern day pharisees on the social media and tv networks. They are actually glorifying themselves in the name of a righteous cause such as combating "climate change" and "saving the planet". Those snobs have intelligence, but no wisdom. If you ever dare to share your faith and expose these people, you can expect the same kind of pushback Jesus faced when He encountered these pharisees. They also use similar tactics such as presenting false dichotomies or asking loaded question, they think they are smart and cunning, but they're just repeating the ancient history 2000 years ago in the Middle East, there's nothing new under the sun. If you don't know the gospel, you wouldn't recognize what they're doing, you'd follow their lead and you'd be deceived.

 

[JLB]

When you wrote "Adam had a choice to make. Obey the LORD or disobey the LORD.",

Yes, Adam had a choice whether the obey or disobey the LORD.


Do you agree or disagree?

 

[JLB]

then you conveyed that Adam had knowledge of good in order for Adam to free-will choose the good of obeying the Word of God thus by extension you conveyed Adam has the knowledge of good to even choose YHWH God.

I never stated Adam had knowledge of good or evil.

Those are your words.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, how do I know it's true? Out of personal experience. For instance, ever heard of virtue signaling? That's modern day pharisees on the social media and tv networks. They are actually glorifying themselves in the name of a righteous cause such as combating "climate change" and "saving the planet". Those snobs have intelligence, but no wisdom. If you ever dare to share your faith and expose these people, you can expect the same kind of pushback Jesus faced when He encountered these pharisees. They also use similar tactics such as presenting false dichotomies or asking loaded question, they think they are smart and cunning, but they're just repeating the ancient history 2000 years ago in the Middle East, there's nothing new under the sun. If you don't know the gospel, you wouldn't recognize what they're doing, you'd follow their lead and you'd be deceived.

OK Carry,
Here's my point again.
We CANNOT know whether or not the writings in the NT are true.
There's only one way to know that they speak the truth and that what they are telling us is the truth.
This is by TRUSTING the writers of the NT.
We must trust that the Apostles relayed to us what really happened.
Can we trust them? I'd say so since every one except for John went to their death for what they taught.
They could not do this unless something spectacular happened to each one of them-
They experienced and saw with their own eyes a dead man come back to life.

John 20:31
30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

If you can't trust John, you can't trust what he wrote.

 

[Kermos]

Agreed.

Where in John 14:6 does it state that God CAUSES all persons to come to God?
John 14:1-6
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
4"And you know the way where I am going.”
5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus told the Apostles He was going to prepare a home for them and that He would come back to them.
Jesus told them that they knew THE WAY/ROAD that He was going.
They told Jesus they did not know WHERE He was going, so how could they know the way.
They were told that Jesus is the way/the road to get to God.
IOW, IF we follow Jesus we will know the way to get to where God is.
Because Jesus is the WAY and the TRUTH and He gives to us LIFE everlasting.
Nothing about God causing person to go to God.
You see things in verses that are not present due to your preconceived ideas.

I noticed your question. Did you not see Lord Jesus Christ's words of "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6) in the post to which you replied?

The Word of God clearly excludes every single person from coming to God unless God causes a person to come to God (John 14:6).

When you wrote "Nothing about God causing person to go to God" were you saying that you, wondering, can come to God despite the Word of God saying "through Me" (John 14:6) in His masterfully loving saying of "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6)?

Correct. Those that PRACTICE the truth - being faithful to God and receiving Him into their lives - do come to the truth.
John 14:6 plainly states that we need Jesus' light to get to God.
Those that love the light will come to God.

John 1:9-13
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[/B]
Above John is speaking of Jesus.
Jesus enlightens every man.
But His own, the Jews, did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, He gave the right to be called children of God.
Jesus had to be received...
No mention of God causing a person to receive Jesus.
They had to receive Him of their own free will.

You wrote "No mention of God causing a person to receive Jesus.
They had to receive Him of their own free will" in respect to John 1:12-13, so you convey that man's free-will is the cause of man receiving Christ; however, the Apostle John specifically excludes "the will of man" (John 1:12-13) as pointed out in the following.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

The woman received a punch to her face dislocating her septum - not by choice - but in the fury of her assailant’s surprise attack.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but a result of the car jumping the curb.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.

The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".

Let's follow the blessed chain linking these people of whom John wrote which is the "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) links with "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) links with "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9).

Each of these are exactly the same people:

• "many as received Him"
• "children of God"
• "believe in His name"
• "born of God"

See that John states none of these enumerated people achieved this by "the will of man" (John 1:12-13).

John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that God causes every single Christian to receive Jesus.

Again, here is the passage:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

Could you please explain how you get God CAUSING our good works from
John 3:21...
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

The Word of God says:

he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)
​

Jesus' word practices (John 3:21) is itself one of the
deeds (John 3:21) that the Lord attributes as having been wrought in God (John 3:21).

As is clear, Lord Jesus addressed your question before you even asked.

Continued to post #68

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #67

"You did not choose me but I chose you" is referring to the Apostles.
Jesus chose the Apostles.
Read some reliable commentaries and please stop saying this...
all Calvinists state this - twisting scripture to mean what they THINK it states.

Let us behold the audience of the Christ of us Christians saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

By the time Lord Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Judas Iscariot departed, so that leaves 11 Apostles.

At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias (Acts 1:21-23) were also present, not your "the apostles", but truly a minimum of 13 persons is contextually established,, and Joseph is not an Apostle despite your writing.

At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time (see John 15:16-19), the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in Mark 13:1-37 including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so Christ's words in John 15:16 are to all believers in all time despite your writing.

Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Relation To Exclusive Choice By Jesus (John 15:16)​

Lord Jesus immediately adjacently joins persons chosen by Jesus with selfsame persons being friends of Friend Jesus (John 15:15-16).

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16)
​

A friend of Jesus does not choose Jesus, but Jesus does choose the friend of Jesus (John 15:15-16), and a friend of Jesus does what Jesus commands (John 15:14) by the appointment of Jesus (John 15:16) thus being a friend of Jesus by the Christ's choosing (John 15:14-16).

A friend of Jesus marvels at the glorious exclusive work of God's salvation of man (Isaiah 42:8); on the other hand, an enemy of Jesus steals the exclusive glory of man's salvation from God by declaring free-willian philosophy like "I chose Jesus" or "I accepted Jesus".

Lord Jesus Christ's friends in all time are the audience for His sayings in John 15:16 and John 15:19.

• Jesus says Who He is, and Jesus declares Himself Sovereign, the exclusive Controller, in man's salvation (John 15:16-19). His friends believe Him, but His enemies believe not Him.
• Jesus says He alone chooses His eternal friends (John 15:15-19). His friends believe Him, but His enemies believe not Him.
• the enemy of Jesus thinks the enemy compels God to provide salvation by thinking things like "Jesus, I open the door of my heart to you and now you must come in"; in other words, the enemy of Jesus thinks that God must obey man's command for salvation to enter the heart of man, also without a man's affirming decision (choosing of Jesus) there is no salvation for the man.
• the enemy of Jesus gets the glory in front of men by saying things like "I accepted Jesus", yet God does not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8).

Jesus explains about His enemies with "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

In their hearts self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) in effect remove themselves from being friends of Jesus.

By the Power of God, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus bears good fruit/works because apart from Jesus a person can do nothing (John 15:5).

By the Power of God, by God's grace, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus is saved from the wrath of God because Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without exception because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)!

Then why does Joshua tell the Israelites to CHOOSE who they will serve?
Joshua 24:15
15But if you refuse to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve.[/B]

Beholding Joshua 24:15

If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve YHWH, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH.
(Joshua 24:15)
​

Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:

IF condition THEN predicate

Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.

IF you_do_this that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional - unless explicitly stated.

Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve YHWH is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.

Disagreeable does not mean choose.

In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against YHWH, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" l.

Finaly, Joshua states "but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).

A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

Man makes no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

Continued to post #69

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #68

Why would God tell us TO DO something HE is going to cause??
If God tells us TO DO something, it means we have the capability to actually do it.

The Apostle Paul wrote:

if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
(Romans 7:7)
​

Paul explained that God uses God's commands to open man's eyes to man's evil state of being.

The Apostle Peter declared:

Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
(Acts 15:10, related to Ezekiel 20:15)
​

Peter explained that God's commands do not impart "the capability to actually do God's commands.

I agree. We can either obey the Holy Spirit and follow God,
or we do not.

We children of God obey the indwelling Holy Spirit by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) doing fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); on the other hand, children of the flesh obey lusts of the flesh doing the deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

You included yourself in the "we" within your statement of "obey the Holy Spirit and follow God, or we do not", and your "we do not", in effext, indicates deeds of the flesh. I do not subscribe to your philosophy.

Where in Genesis does it state that Adam did NOT have free will?

That question is just like asking "where in Scripture does it state a man cannot be a bird?"

Adam moved away from God by eating of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6, Genesis 3:17-19, Genesis 3:24), so Adam is no example of man being imparted the ability to choose towards God.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

OK Carry,
Here's my point again.
We CANNOT know whether or not the writings in the NT are true.
There's only one way to know that they speak the truth and that what they are telling us is the truth.
This is by TRUSTING the writers of the NT.
We must trust that the Apostles relayed to us what really happened.
Can we trust them? I'd say so since every one except for John went to their death for what they taught.
They could not do this unless something spectacular happened to each one of them-
They experienced and saw with their own eyes a dead man come back to life.

Yes, trust, but also verify. Believing the NT as historical truth is one thing, believing it as relevant in 21st century, in our personal lives is another.

Come, taste and see that the Lord is good;
Blessed is he who trusts in Him! (Ps. 34:8)

 

[gordon777]

About free will, we know there is God the right guide and the devil the wrong guide.

It cant be more plainer that, that is two guides, one of light, one of darkness.

The blind guide of darkness also began in the garden to try to teach all in this world about God, and tries to get man to trust in blindness, in darkness, instead of trusting only in what God had said to Adam, and what God speaks now to the sons of Adam, to be guided by the light, not by Satan the false light.

 

[gordon777]

But another power of will speaks more than that, that light exceeds darkness, so always the light exceeds what darkness can say, and darkness also disappears when the true light now shines.

 

[Kermos]

If Adam did not have the free will to eat or not eat of the tree then what does the eating of the fruit imply?
Why did he eat of the forbidden fruit?

Hello wondering and Walpole (you "thumbs up" wondering's post),

To your first question, Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food means that Adam became aware of his own evil flesh because he attempted to conceal his flesh, just as the very next verse after "he ate" (Genesis 3:6) explains:

and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings
(Genesis 3:7)
​

Now, let's examine how the Word of God supplies the answer to your second inquiry.

God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree​

After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)
The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "]b]because[/b]" is the first word that the Word of God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17.

God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return (Genesis 3:17-19) and that Adam knew good and evil (Genesis 3:22), so Adam became aware of his evil flesh (Genesis 3:7).

Hence, man desperately needs the Savior to redeem man from man's evil flesh. This Redeemer, Lord Jesus Christ, contributes the entirely complete ransom for the redeemed, and the redeemed contribute absolutely nothing to the ransom of the redeemed, not even a "I give my heart to you, Jesus" since that free-willian sentiment is the initial contribution to the free-willian obtaining salvation from the wrath of God - the free-willian becomes the free-willian's redeemer.

Lord Jesus lovingly redeems in full us children of God, and we Christians praise Him for His lovingkindness, His passion, His works.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello wondering and Walpole (you "thumbs up" wondering's post),

To your first question, Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food means that Adam became aware of his own evil flesh because he attempted to conceal his flesh, just as the very next verse after "he ate" (Genesis 3:6) explains:

​

and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings​

(Genesis 3:7)​

​

Now, let's examine how the Word of God supplies the answer to your second inquiry.

God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree​

After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)
The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "]b]because[/b]" is the first word that the Word of God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17.

God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return (Genesis 3:17-19) and that Adam knew good and evil (Genesis 3:22), so Adam became aware of his evil flesh (Genesis 3:7).

Hence, man desperately needs the Savior to redeem man from man's evil flesh. This Redeemer, Lord Jesus Christ, contributes the entirely complete ransom for the redeemed, and the redeemed contribute absolutely nothing to the ransom of the redeemed, not even a "I give my heart to you, Jesus" since that free-willian sentiment is the initial contribution to the free-willian obtaining salvation from the wrath of God - the free-willian becomes the free-willian's redeemer.

Lord Jesus lovingly redeems in full us children of God, and we Christians praise Him for His lovingkindness, His passion, His works.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

Hi Kermos
I owe you a couple of posts.
I'm sorry to make you wait but tomorrow!
Thanks

 

[gordon777]

Do you guys not see your errors, to speak, to debate, to dispute, and the topic about free will, and the non having of it.

Everybody has free will to know how to do good to others, as they would do good to themselves, they have that feeling from inside out.

The only difference is, Jesus Christ does to others, as He would have for Him, because this is love to think that way, to lay His life down to save them, from their own deceit and own death.

Love is in deed and truth,m not in word and tongue, the forum is not the love of God at all, it is the very opposite.

 

[Kermos]

If man (Adam) did not have free will, then your God is a monster, not the true God.

Hi Walpole, we meet again.

That first sentence of yours is quite the mouthful!

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
(Romans 9:19-24)
​

He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
(Romans 9:10)
​

it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
(Romans 9:16)
​

Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained​

Free-willians think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet free-willians simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free-willians preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of free-willians failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of the free-willians died to save.

The blood at the cross also established a spot in Heaven for the third individual who never heard the Gospel, but that spot will remain vacant for all eternity - the god of the free-willians was unable to keep the spot occupied.

The god of free-willian philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

The free-willian god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

That is no god at all which the free-willians create in their imagination, just a tradition of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), God saves every single individual for whom Jesus died on the cross to redeem from the wrath of God; in other words, God does not miss saving a single one of God's chosen persons for whom Jesus made atonement on the cross.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30), so His atonement is completely successful! Praise Lord Jesus!!!

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:29) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

Since grace is "unearned love", then the free-willian choice negates God's grace because the free-willian earned the unearnable by the free-willian making the initial contribution to force God to admit the free-willian into the Kingdom of God - all according to free-willian philosophy, both implicit and explicit.

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free-willian who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.

Behold, the psalmist says he is entirely dependent upon the Almighty!

I will extol You, O YHWH, for You have lifted me up,

And have not let my enemies rejoice over me.
​

O YHWH my God,

I cried to You for help, and You healed me.
​

O YHWH, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;

You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
​

(Psalm 30:1-3)

"...but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” - Genesis 3:3

If man does not have a free will, God's instruction to Adam would be superfluous and useless. What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not even capable of doing?

Your fruit is that you quoted the word of Eve, there, not the Word of God. She added to the Word of God, and you quoted her as if she is your authority, but, in Truth (John 14:6) the Word of God is the exclusive authority, and the Word of God says:

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"
(Genesis 2:16-17)
​

You wrote "What kind of God asks man", so you wrote "asks" instead of commanded (Genesis 2:16).

You illegally subtracted commanded (Genesis 2:16), then you illegally added "asks", then you illegally inject that man must of necessity have a free-will based upon your illegal "asks" when you wrote "If man does not have a free will, God's instruction to Adam would be superfluous and useless".

God does not ask people to do things, rather God does command people to do things.

No Scripture states man was imparted free-will, so "man does not have a free will, God's instruction to Adam" are not "superfluous and useless", and here is Apostolic testimony as to why.

The Word of God is AWESOME! The Word of God declares that God's commands are the opposite of "superfluous and useless" with:

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits
(Matthew 7:15-20)
​

Every single good deed accomplished by a Christian is fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) for we find Lord Jesus declares "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

God's commands show people who other people with fruit are of, whether vessels of mercy used by God to make known the riches of His glory, or, on the other hand, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you guys not see your errors, to speak, to debate, to dispute, and the topic about free will, and the non having of it.

Everybody has free will to know how to do good to others, as they would do good to themselves, they have that feeling from inside out.

The only difference is, Jesus Christ does to others, as He would have for Him, because this is love to think that way, to lay His life down to save them, from their own deceit and own death.

Love is in deed and truth,m not in word and tongue, the forum is not the love of God at all, it is the very opposite.

WHY ARE YOU HERE GORDON?
YOU MUST STOP MAKING NEGATIVE STATEMENTS ABOUT BOTH MEMBERS AND THE FORUM.
AS OF NOW, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THIS MANNER, YOU WILL BE TIME BANNED.
THANKS FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[GodsGrace]

I noticed your question. Did you not see Lord Jesus Christ's words of "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6) in the post to which you replied?

The Word of God clearly excludes every single person from coming to God unless God causes a person to come to God (John 14:6).

When you wrote "Nothing about God causing person to go to God" were you saying that you, wondering, can come to God despite the Word of God saying "through Me" (John 14:6) in His masterfully loving saying of "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6)?

Kermos, no one can come to the Father except through me only means that we need Jesus in order to go to God or walk with God.

It DOES NOT say that God CAUSES a person to come to God.

I'm not going to go around in circles about this.
You have predetermined ideas and that's what you bring with you.
I do also, of course, except mine are orthodox and have been around from when Jesus died.
Your ideas have only been around for the past 400 years or so since Luther and Calvin.

If this is what you read in John 14:6, then so be it.

You wrote "No mention of God causing a person to receive Jesus.
They had to receive Him of their own free will" in respect to John 1:12-13, so you convey that man's free-will is the cause of man receiving Christ; however, the Apostle John specifically excludes "the will of man" (John 1:12-13) as pointed out in the following.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

The woman received a punch to her face dislocating her septum - not by choice - but in the fury of her assailant’s surprise attack.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but a result of the car jumping the curb.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.

The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".

Let's follow the blessed chain linking these people of whom John wrote which is the "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) links with "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) links with "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9).

Each of these are exactly the same people:

• "many as received Him"
• "children of God"
• "believe in His name"
• "born of God"

See that John states none of these enumerated people achieved this by "the will of man" (John 1:12-13).

I'm sorry to say that I'm not here for an English lesson.
Post a verse and we'll discuss it.

As many as RECEIVED HIM....HOW was Jesus received?
Where does it state God chose persons to receive Him?

John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that God causes every single Christian to receive Jesus.

Again, here is the passage:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

Oh. I see what you mean.
Sure. But what does John 1:12-13 mean??

John 1:12-13
12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.
13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM:
Some heard Jesus
Some believed Him and received Him....Allowed Him into their heart.

HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD:
We can be called Children of God when we receive Jesus into our heart.

NOT WITH A PHYSICAL BIRTH RESULTING FROM PASSION OR PLAN, BUT A BIRTH THAT COMES FROM GOD:
We are not born spiritually at our birth. It does not depend on blood----our parents and childbirth.
Not by any plan that man might have made...
But by the plan that God made from before the world began.
This plan requires being born from above....John 3:5
We are required to walk in the light.....1 John 3:10 The walking is done by us with the help of the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God says:

​

he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God​

(Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)​

​

Jesus' word practices (John 3:21) is itself one of the
deeds (John 3:21) that the Lord attributes as having been wrought in God (John 3:21).

As is clear, Lord Jesus addressed your question before you even asked.

Continued to post #68

I believe we agree if by the above you mean that we come to the light because we practice the truth ---
not because God chose us --- But all good comes from the Father of light, and when we walk in the light we are doing what God wants....it is wrought in God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But another power of will speaks more than that, that light exceeds darkness, so always the light exceeds what darkness can say, and darkness also disappears when the true light now shines.

The concept of "free will" is not explicitly mentioned in the bible, it must be understood as opposed to "natural will". So what is natural will? It's the limbic system in our brain in charge of emotions, also known as "lizard brain". These emotions are our "6F" natural reactions to a situation: - fight, flight, fear, feed, freeze, fornication. Natural will is a given, as these reactions come up NATURALLY, they don't require any effort or even awareness from you, and of course, it often turns out negatively. Free will, on the other hand, empowers you to RESPOND with the thinking part of your brain, and that's what sets us apart from animals. And unlike natural will, free will is like a muscle that must be trained, and that's the spiritual gift of discipline. If you abandon your free will and follow your feelings, you'd be subject to your natural will and unable to respond.

 

[gordon777]

The concept of "free will" is not explicitly mentioned in the bible, it must be understood as opposed to "natural will". So what is natural will? It's the limbic system in our brain in charge of emotions, also known as "lizard brain". These emotions are our "6F" natural reactions to a situation: - fight, flight, fear, feed, freeze, fornication. Natural will is a given, as these reactions come up NATURALLY, they don't require any effort or even awareness from you, and of course, it often turns out negatively. Free will, on the other hand, empowers you to RESPOND with the thinking part of your brain, and that's what sets us apart from animals. And unlike natural will, free will is like a muscle that must be trained, and that's the spiritual gift of discipline. If you abandon your free will and follow your feelings, you'd be subject to your natural will and unable to respond.

Natural will is not mentioned in the bible, so it is the wisdom of this world.

That is what is testified also, that the natural man receives not the things of God, as they are foolishness unto him.

The natural man makes his mistake, ( errors) by speaking evil of the things that they do not understand, to utterly perish in their own corruption, to speak what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. ( that is FREE WILL TESTIFIED RIGHT HERE AND FULFILLED.)



1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.