Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Kermos]

Yes I believe Adam was given free will with the consequences and stakes being quite high. However, it was one of those "You had one job and you mucked it up..." kind of completely avoidable errors.

However, Adam being placed near a dangerous tree in paradise may not seem like the kind of best environment for him, i.e., we don't build our children's playpen next to the freeway if we can avoid it and I don't believe God does either.

It makes me think the presence of this tree containing knowledge was something that wasn't avoidable in the first place. It's possible it may be symbolism and not a literal tree, too, since we don't know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it. For example, God also has the knowledge of good and evil according to Genesis 3:22 but He probably didn't eat literal fruit.

At the conclusion of your post, you wrote "It's possible it may be symbolism and not a literal tree", and you provided your reasons and an analogy earlier in your post.

I have a question for you, was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy by God or by Naaman dipping himself into the Jordan River those seven times (2 Kings 5:1-15)?

In both cases, Adam and Naaman, there was a literal physical world outward sign/event, that is, an action for Adam and Naaman, and there was an inward event, that is, something spiritual occurred within each man.

You also wrote "God also has the knowledge of good and evil according to Genesis 3:22 but He probably didn't eat literal fruit".

Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), and Christ is the everlasting God, so God always has understanding and knowledge.

Your writing, there, demonstrates that YHWH God created Adam without an attribute of God, that is, when the Word of God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), so according to the Word of God "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22), Adam was not created with the knowledge of good and evil.

Notice, "the Word of God" in Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22, even throughout Genesis chapters 1-5 of the creation account. There is much Word of God.

The Word of God is Lord Jesus Christ because the Apostle wrote "the Word manifested flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory" (John 1:14, see also John 1:1-5).

Now, when God pronounced judgment upon Adam, the Word of God said:

Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';
(Genesis 3:17)
​

So, the Word of God literally states that Adam had "eaten from the tree". With this being written, then it's impossible for this to "be symbolism and not a literal tree" without the human heart nullifying and voiding the Word of God.

You continued with "we don't know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it", but we DO know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it - this one tree was in the garden of Eden.

But, then "God drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and we are told everything was destroyed in the Flood of Noah's time.

Runningman, no Holy Scripture states Adam was imparted free-will, not even in the creation account of Genesis chapters 1-5, the word "choose" is absent, so when you wrote "I believe Adam was given free will", then I ask you, from where does your belief come?

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

At the conclusion of your post, you wrote "It's possible it may be symbolism and not a literal tree", and you provided your reasons and an analogy earlier in your post.

I have a question for you, was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy by God or by Naaman dipping himself into the Jordan River those seven times (2 Kings 5:1-15)?

In both cases, Adam and Naaman, there was a literal physical world outward sign/event, that is, an action for Adam and Naaman, and there was an inward event, that is, something spiritual occurred within each man.

You also wrote "God also has the knowledge of good and evil according to Genesis 3:22 but He probably didn't eat literal fruit".

Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), and Christ is the everlasting God, so God always has understanding and knowledge.

Your writing, there, demonstrates that YHWH God created Adam without an attribute of God, that is, when the Word of God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), so according to the Word of God "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22), Adam was not created with the knowledge of good and evil.

Notice, "the Word of God" in Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22, even throughout Genesis chapters 1-5 of the creation account. There is much Word of God.

The Word of God is Lord Jesus Christ because the Apostle wrote "the Word manifested flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory" (John 1:14, see also John 1:1-5).

Now, when God pronounced judgment upon Adam, the Word of God said:

​

Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';​

(Genesis 3:17)​

​

So, the Word of God literally states that Adam had "eaten from the tree". With this being written, then it's impossible for this to "be symbolism and not a literal tree" without the human heart nullifying and voiding the Word of God.

You continued with "we don't know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it", but we DO know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it - this one tree was in the garden of Eden.

But, then "God drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and we are told everything was destroyed in the Flood of Noah's time.

Runningman, no Holy Scripture states Adam was imparted free-will, not even in the creation account of Genesis chapters 1-5, the word "choose" is absent, so when you wrote "I believe Adam was given free will", then I ask you, from where does your belief come?

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

If Adam did not have the free will to eat or not eat of the tree then what does the eating of the fruit imply?
Why did he eat of the forbidden fruit?

 

[Walpole]

If man (Adam) did not have free will, then your God is a monster, not the true God.

"...but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” - Genesis 3:3

If man does not have a free will, God's instruction to Adam would be superfluous and useless. What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not even capable of doing?

 

[gordon777]

Where in John 14:6 does it state that God CAUSES all persons to come to God?
John 14:1-6
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
4“And you know the way where I am going.”
5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus told the Apostles He was going to prepare a home for them and that He would come back to them.
Jesus told them that they knew THE WAY/ROAD that He was going.
They told Jesus they did not know WHERE He was going, so how could they know the way.
They were told that Jesus is the way/the road to get to God.
IOW, IF we follow Jesus we will know the way to get to where God is.
Because Jesus is the WAY and the TRUTH and He gives to us LIFE everlasting.
Nothing about God causing person to go to God.

John 14:6 speaks specifically of the Father.

As already told in this thread, that is exactly what is caused by the Son of God sent into the world, to declare the Father.

That answers both things together, it is how God is causing people to go to Him, and of course then, how all are caused. ( it cant be only to some, as the declaration of the Father has gone into all of the world.)

John 14:1 is the first instruction of the chapter to the Apostles, of believing in God, and to also believe in Him. ( BECAUSE NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, BUT THE SON, AS HE IS IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM, WHO HAS DECLARED HIM TO THE WORLD.)



John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Correct. Those that PRACTICE the truth - being faithful to God and receiving Him into their lives - do come to the truth.
John 14:6 plainly states that we need Jesus' light to get to God.
Those that love the light will come to God.

The truth is spoken by Jesus of His Father, revealing how He is the only one to have come down from heaven, as He is in heaven, and it is why He is the only that ascends up to heaven also.

That paves the way for belief, that the Son of man must be lifted up, ( because He is the only which is in heaven, and then which came down from heaven, to ascend up to heaven.) to heaven, and then whosoever believes in Him lives, and does not die.



John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.




The truth is declared, that Jesus Christ lives, to die for our sins. The light, ( the declaration of the Father by HIs only begotten Son) shines in darkness, ( darkness is unbelief) and the condemnation ( what all are judged by) is that light came into the world but men loved darkness ( unbelief) rather than light. ( belief in the declaration of the Son of God of the Father.) Evil deeds are done by unbelief.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.



John the Baptist testifies how no man receives the testimony of the Son of God, ( of what the Son, seen and heard of the Father) but if any man did receive they have set to their own seal that God is true. ( they show they believe in the truth, because the Son of God speaks the words of God.)



John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

John 1:9-13
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Above John is speaking of Jesus.
Jesus enlightens every man.
But His own, the Jews, did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, He gave the right to be called children of God.
Jesus had to be received...
No mention of God causing a person to receive Jesus.
They had to receive Him of their own free will.

 

[gordon777]

Jesus also taught why they did not receive Him.

The Jews of Israel of course sent unto John the Baptist, and John we saw testified of Jesus, but Jesus has shown to us all that He does not receive testimony from man. ( from any man.) But Jesus says what He says, so we might be saved.

Jesus shows He has greater witness than John the Baptist, which is finishing the works the Father gave the Son, as the same works that Christ does, bear witness of Christ the Son, that the Father send Him.

Jesus continues to tell the Jews of Israel, how they have never heard nor seen the Father, but that the Father has given witness of the Son, and they do not have the Fathers word, ( the witness that the Father bare of His Son) in them, because the Son who the Father sent, they did not believe in.

Jesus tells the people of Israel again, to search those same scriptures, because in them they think they live forever, but they speak of the Son. ( who they were not believing in, speaking to them.)

Jesus shows how they will not come to Him to have life, ( why they remain unbelieving in death) because they do not see the Son of God does not receive honour from men, ( receives no testimony from man.) but declares how they are in unbelief for this same reason, they have no love of God in them because when the Son of God came to them in the Fathers name, ( His Fathers name) they do not receive Him, and the reason they do not receive Him is because if another comes in their own name, they receive that instead.

Instead of believing only in the Son ( not the thieves and robbers before Him, nor in the wolves who entered the flock afterwards) they believe those same thieves robbers, wolves, who receive honour ( testimony) from one another, ( lying, deceiving one another) and show they SEEK NOTTHE HONOUR THAT COMES FROM GOD ONLY.

Jesus finishes the testimony by revealing how they were borne witness by the Father of the Son, that they are accused even through Moses, because Moses in their scriptures ( they are told to search) wrote of Christ, and had they believed in their own Moses, they would then have believed in the Son of God, but Jesus reveals, if they now showed they never believed in the writings of Moses, how would they then believe in the words of Jesus Christ.



John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Could you please explain how you get God CAUSING our good works from
John 3:21...
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”


"You did not choose me but I chose you" is referring to the Apostles.
Jesus chose the Apostles.
Read some reliable commentaries and please stop saying this...
all Calvinists state this - twisting scripture to mean what they THINK it states.

God chooses all to be soldiers of faith, including the Apostles. God does cause all, by HIs words, they are Spirit and life.



John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.


Debate is the sign for the end that the world hears fables, no longer the word. So the truth is turned from, and fables are chosen


Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Runningman]

At the conclusion of your post, you wrote "It's possible it may be symbolism and not a literal tree", and you provided your reasons and an analogy earlier in your post.

I have a question for you, was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy by God or by Naaman dipping himself into the Jordan River those seven times (2 Kings 5:1-15)?

In both cases, Adam and Naaman, there was a literal physical world outward sign/event, that is, an action for Adam and Naaman, and there was an inward event, that is, something spiritual occurred within each man.

That doesn't mean that is always the way things happen.

You also wrote "God also has the knowledge of good and evil according to Genesis 3:22 but He probably didn't eat literal fruit".

Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24),

Yes.

and Christ is the everlasting God, so God always has understanding and knowledge.

No.

Your writing, there, demonstrates that YHWH God created Adam without an attribute of God, that is, when the Word of God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), so according to the Word of God "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22), Adam was not created with the knowledge of good and evil.

Correct.

Notice, "the Word of God" in Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22, even throughout Genesis chapters 1-5 of the creation account. There is much Word of God.

The Word of God is Lord Jesus Christ because the Apostle wrote "the Word manifested flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory" (John 1:14, see also John 1:1-5).

Now, when God pronounced judgment upon Adam, the Word of God said:

​

Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';​

(Genesis 3:17)​

​

So, the Word of God literally states that Adam had "eaten from the tree". With this being written, then it's impossible for this to "be symbolism and not a literal tree" without the human heart nullifying and voiding the Word of God.

You continued with "we don't know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it", but we DO know of a literal fruit that can make someone gain knowledge of something simply by eating it - this one tree was in the garden of Eden.

But, then "God drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and we are told everything was destroyed in the Flood of Noah's time.

Runningman, no Holy Scripture states Adam was imparted free-will, not even in the creation account of Genesis chapters 1-5, the word "choose" is absent, so when you wrote "I believe Adam was given free will", then I ask you, from where does your belief come?

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

I think we will disagree. What is your reasoning for Adam being made in the image of God but also lacking an attribute of God. Do you think God ate literal fruit from the literal tree?

 

[gordon777]

So does debate, dispute, contention, ever stop, or that is the fruit of this forum...



Jeremiah 32:19 Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:

 

[Walpole]

So does debate, dispute, contention, ever stop, or that is the fruit of this forum...



Jeremiah 32:19 Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:

Unfortunately, this is the nature of a Christianity without an authority to declare what is or is not the Christian faith. Instead, the faith becomes entirely subjective and chaos reigns.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Unfortunately, this is the nature of a Christianity without an authority to declare what is or is not the Christian faith. Instead, the faith becomes entirely subjective and chaos reigns.

The gold standard is the Torah, especially Deuteronomy. The new testament is actually the RENEWED convenant, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to break it.

 

[Walpole]

The gold standard is the Torah, especially Deuteronomy. The new testament is actually the RENEWED convenant, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to break it.

The gold standard is Jesus Christ, not the Torah…

“Ye have heard that it hath been said…but I say unto you…”

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The gold standard is Jesus Christ, not the Torah… “Ye have heard that it hath been said…but I say unto you…”

You can't tell the real Jesus from all the fake ones (Matt. 24:11, 24:23-24) without the Torah. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, that Word is the Torah. Of course, the Torah doesn't save, but it tells you what you must be saved from.

 

[Walpole]

You can't tell the real Jesus from all the fake ones (Matt. 24:11, 24:23-24) without the Torah. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, that Word is the Torah. Of course, the Torah doesn't save, but it tells you what you must be saved from.

It looks like you are conflating the rhema with the Logos.

Regarding the Torah, here again is what the Logos said about it...

“Ye have heard that it hath been said…but I say unto you…”

 

[GodsGrace]

You can't tell the real Jesus from all the fake ones (Matt. 24:11, 24:23-24) without the Torah. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, that Word is the Torah. Of course, the Torah doesn't save, but it tells you what you must be saved from.

The Word is also known as the Logos.
The Logos is the intelligence and reason of God.
Jesus is the Logos. Yes, He is the Word that became flesh.

Also, I agree that it's all the prophesies in the OT that allow us to know that Jesus fulfilled these prophesies, at least most of them and some to be fulfilled at the end times...
But it's my opinion that what allows us to know that Jesus is the "real one" is that the Apostles believed this to be true.
In the end, our faith must rest on the Apostles who retold the story of Jesus' ministry.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It looks like you are conflating the rhema with the Logos.

Regarding the Torah, here again is what the Logos said about it...

“Ye have heard that it hath been said…but I say unto you…”

"Rhema" is the "oral Torah", man made traditions; "logos" is the written word of God. Jesus was NOT refuting the written Torah, "it hath been said" indicates he was referring to the oral traditions stemmed from the Torah, namely the Babylonian Talmud.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But it's my opinion that what allows us to know that Jesus is the "real one" is that the Apostles believed this to be true.
In the end, our faith must rest on the Apostles who retold the story of Jesus' ministry.

Our faith rests on the Word itself and the application/fulfillment/testimony of the Word. That includes the whole book from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 14:6 speaks specifically of the Father.

But you haven't shown me where or how...
I don't see it and I posted the entire verses pertaining to it.

As already told in this thread, that is exactly what is caused by the Son of God sent into the world, to declare the Father.

This is true.
And for other reasons...
As an atonement.
As an example.
To fulfill scripture.

That answers both things together, it is how God is causing people to go to Him, and of course then, how all are caused. ( it cant be only to some, as the declaration of the Father has gone into all of the world.)

HOW does God cause persons to go to Him?

John 14:1 is the first instruction of the chapter to the Apostles, of believing in God, and to also believe in Him. ( BECAUSE NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, BUT THE SON, AS HE IS IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM, WHO HAS DECLARED HIM TO THE WORLD.)

OK.
Trust in God Father and trust also in Me (Jesus).
Agreed.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

OK
I'm beginning to forget the point here.
How does Free will fit into this?

The truth is spoken by Jesus of His Father, revealing how He is the only one to have come down from heaven, as He is in heaven, and it is why He is the only that ascends up to heaven also.

Agreed.

That paves the way for belief, that the Son of man must be lifted up, ( because He is the only which is in heaven, and then which came down from heaven, to ascend up to heaven.) to heaven, and then whosoever believes in Him lives, and does not die.

I agree with this.
Jesus told us in chapter 12 of John that if He was lifted up He would draw all men to Himself.
And those who believe in Him, will be saved.
John 3:16

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Agreed 100%

The truth is declared, that Jesus Christ lives, to die for our sins. The light, ( the declaration of the Father by HIs only begotten Son) shines in darkness, ( darkness is unbelief) and the condemnation ( what all are judged by) is that light came into the world but men loved darkness ( unbelief) rather than light. ( belief in the declaration of the Son of God of the Father.) Evil deeds are done by unbelief.

Agreed.
I also believe that darkness is for wrong deeds besides unbelief.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Good.

John the Baptist testifies how no man receives the testimony of the Son of God, ( of what the Son, seen and heard of the Father) but if any man did receive they have set to their own seal that God is true. ( they show they believe in the truth, because the Son of God speaks the words of God.)



John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Agreed!
Good post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus also taught why they did not receive Him.

The Jews of Israel of course sent unto John the Baptist, and John we saw testified of Jesus, but Jesus has shown to us all that He does not receive testimony from man. ( from any man.) But Jesus says what He says, so we might be saved.

Jesus shows He has greater witness than John the Baptist, which is finishing the works the Father gave the Son, as the same works that Christ does, bear witness of Christ the Son, that the Father send Him.

Jesus continues to tell the Jews of Israel, how they have never heard nor seen the Father, but that the Father has given witness of the Son, and they do not have the Fathers word, ( the witness that the Father bare of His Son) in them, because the Son who the Father sent, they did not believe in.

Jesus tells the people of Israel again, to search those same scriptures, because in them they think they live forever, but they speak of the Son. ( who they were not believing in, speaking to them.)

Jesus shows how they will not come to Him to have life, ( why they remain unbelieving in death) because they do not see the Son of God does not receive honour from men, ( receives no testimony from man.) but declares how they are in unbelief for this same reason, they have no love of God in them because when the Son of God came to them in the Fathers name, ( His Fathers name) they do not receive Him, and the reason they do not receive Him is because if another comes in their own name, they receive that instead.

Instead of believing only in the Son ( not the thieves and robbers before Him, nor in the wolves who entered the flock afterwards) they believe those same thieves robbers, wolves, who receive honour ( testimony) from one another, ( lying, deceiving one another) and show they SEEK NOTTHE HONOUR THAT COMES FROM GOD ONLY.

Jesus finishes the testimony by revealing how they were borne witness by the Father of the Son, that they are accused even through Moses, because Moses in their scriptures ( they are told to search) wrote of Christ, and had they believed in their own Moses, they would then have believed in the Son of God, but Jesus reveals, if they now showed they never believed in the writings of Moses, how would they then believe in the words of Jesus Christ.



John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?





God chooses all to be soldiers of faith, including the Apostles. God does cause all, by HIs words, they are Spirit and life.



John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.



Debate is the sign for the end that the world hears fables, no longer the word. So the truth is turned from, and fables are chosen


Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Great post!

 

[GodsGrace]

Our faith rests on the Word itself and the application/fulfillment/testimony of the Word. That includes the whole book from Genesis to Revelation.

How do you know the NT is telling the truth?

 

[Kermos]

Just a matter of time-
Jewish Aspects
Amongst the ancient Jews three sects were segregated on the
basis of fundamental theological disagreements: the Essenes were
extreme proponents for an absolute fatalistic theory. Acceptance of
this position precludes the very basic right and need for seeking
medical help; the Sadduceans believed in absolute free will with no
divine providence, thus ascribing every action to mere chance; the
Pharisees accepted a theory that combines human free choice
together with divine providence, which is a form of determinism.
According to this theory, God determines the rules and actions in
the universe and supervises human deeds, but there exists a definite
and extensive range of human freedom of mind. This approach is
.
5. Wolff RP (1970). In Defense of Anarchism. New-York: Harper & Row, p.14.
6. Dworkin G (1982). Autonomy and informed consent. In: President’s Commission for
the Study of Ethical Problems in Medicine and Biomedical and Behavioral Research. Making Health Care Decisions, Vol. III, Washington, DC, pp. 63-81.
Free Will vs. Determinism in Bioethics 91


beautifully and concisely summarized by the Sages: “All is foreseen,
but the choice is given.”7

This idea was further elaborated upon by
the Jewish sages in the Talmud,8
and extended in depth by the
Medieval Jewish philosophers and legalists. The vast majority of
them expressed their profound belief in the free will of man,
considering this to be an essential prerequisite for moral conduct
according to Judaism.

Maimonides, for instance, stated that every
person can choose to be good or evil, with no divine predeterminism. If it were not so, he stated, the entire Torah would be
purposeless, with no justification to punish the wicked or reward
the righteous.

However, Maimonides and other Jewish scholars,
realized the inherent religious conflict between human freedom
and God’s knowledge and providence.

Various ways to reconcile
between these ideas were proposed, and several attempts were
undertaken to assess the quantitative input of each of them into a
given action or behavior. These deliberations, however, are beyond
the scope of this article [for further details see reference 9,9 pp.71-
73].

The Jewish point of view can be summarized in the following
way: free will need not be interpreted as absolute libertarianism,
whereas determinism need not be comprehended in an absolute
fashion. So that human behavior and actions are not either free or
determined; rather they are both free and determined, in a relative
admixture.

Thus, Judaism acknowledges the ability of freedom of
the mind.

The approval of medicine in normative Jewish law is
based on the rejection of absolute determinism. According to the
Talmud and its main interpretor,10 the engagement in medical
practice is permissible, disclaiming the notion that by doing so one
is abrogating God’s deeds.
The right to execute autonomous decisions, however, has
several restrictions and limitations.
Indeed, one of the most significant differences between current
secular and Jewish medical ethics concerns the principle of autonomy. Current general medical ethics has overwhelmingly shifted
the focus of decision-making from the physician to the patient, thus
.
7. Mishna Avot 3:15.
8. Urbach EE(1976). The Sages – Their concepts and Beliefs (Hebrew), Jerusalem:
Magnes, pp. 227-253.
9. Steinberg A (1988). Encyclopedia Hilchatit-Refuit. Vol. I, Jerusalem.
10. Baba Kama 85a, and Rashi there.
92 Jewish Medical Ethics

ascribing the primacy of autonomy in the physician-patient
relationship to the patient. The principle of autonomy has become
absolute, taking precedence over all other values such as life and
beneficence.
It is pertinent to cite some of the critique of this approach by
Pellegrino and Thomasma.11 They suggest that the practical
question in clinical decisions is not whether or not we have a right
to autonomy; we most certainly do. Rather, the question focuses on
the proper exercise of autonomy.

Do we have a right to exercise
autonomy when the decision we wish to make is not morally good?
Are we free to make morally wrong decisions? Have we lost a
common consensus on morals to such a degree that there is no
longer any community of values? Are there any other values in
common other than autonomy?

By promoting autonomy to the
extreme overriding power, are we not promoting a degradation of
moral life and principles? Does this approach not educate to
amoral or even immoral life? Can a society survive such radical
pluralism in which there are no longer any shared values?
Engelhardt12 argues that full freedom and autonomy must be
guaranteed, even if these appear wrongheaded or downright offensive and evil to others, in order to maintain a peaceable society.

The right of autonomy in this libertarian view takes precedence
over the good. This retreat to private morality eventually leads to a
moral atomism in which each individual’s moral beliefs and actions
– unless they disturb the peaceable community – are unassailable.
Moral debate thus becomes futile, since each person is his/her own
arbiter of right and good. The traditional notion of ethics as
reasoned public discourse in search of the common good is
discarded.

Pellegrino and Thomasma11 argue that the approach of Engelhardt is wrong, and autonomy cannot and should not overrule all
other values.

In their view, an ethic based on beneficence more
fully embraces the nuances of the patient’s best interests.
Judaism ascribes to a higher order of moral conduct, which
obligates the individual and society. Autonomy as a concept of
respect for others is highly valued and demanded. However,
.

Free Will vs. Determinism in Bioethics 93--

autonomous decisions that do not comply with the required moral
standard are overridden by higher moral values, as determined by
the halacha and a value system which governs the life of each
individual, patient and physician alike.
Judaism restricts the notion of autonomy to actions that are
morally indifferent. Where conflicting values arise each individual
is bound to act in order to achieve self-fulfillment. Thus, everyone
is duty-bound to act according to that standard and to relinquish his
temporary wishes.

Therefore, in medical situations that involve
ethical conflicts, the solution is based on the appropriate Jewish law
which governs both the physician and the patient. This approach
can be termed a Moral-Religious Paternalism as oppossed to the
Hippocratic Individual-Personal Paternalism of the physician.
The enhancement of individual freedom to the point of
destroying moral values in medicine cannot be considered as the
best resolution to complex ethical dilemmas in medicine. There
need be a set of common and shared values which both the patient
and the physician will obey, and this is what Judaism offers those
who follow this way of life.

Thus, the right of free will is waived
when in conflict with certain other values.

Judaism places great
importance on self-fulfillment and refinement in the spirit of moral
and religious commandments. Therefore, values directed to achieve
this goal are superior to the principle of autonomy when in conflict.
On the other hand, the basic principle of self-determination, and
particularly the moral and religious demand to respect other human
beings, is highly advanced in Jewish thought. This was stated in
several epigrams: Do not do unto others what is hated upon
yourself;13 Respect your fellowman as you would have him respect
you.14 According to one of the talmudic sages, the biblical verse:
Love thy neighbor as thyself – is the essence of the whole Torah.15

Free Will vs. Determinism
in Bioethics:
Comparative Philosophical and
Jewish Perspectives
Avraham Steinberg, M.D.

I am all for-"we did not choose God or Christ" but AFTER regeneration we have free will to make daily choices-we are going to give an account based on our words, thoughts and actions brother-preach the Gospel.
J.

Maimonides was a medieval period Jewish religious leader who lived over 1,000 years after Christ's crucifixion, so Maimonides denied that the Living Lord Jesus is the Christ of God.

You used an unbelieving Jew named Maimonides as the basis for your belief in free-will.

In your closing paragraph, you wrote "I am all for-'we did not choose God or Christ'", and that is wonderful.

But, then, you immediately continued with "but AFTER regeneration we have free will to make daily choices" which is out of accord with the following Word of God:

• "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)
• AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Philippians "being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11)
• SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively caused by God

A person either glorifies God by humbly declaring God causes the wonderful works of God in Christians, including fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), even every single righteous word, thought, and action, or a person glorifies himself or herself by proudly self-assigning the person's "good" works to himself or herself.

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How do you know the NT is telling the truth?

It's the fulfillment of the OT, aka the Scriptures at the time. There's profound truth in it which is still alive and active today.