Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[gordon777]

You misunderstood what I said. I disagree with your general premise that Jesus is God. Jesus absolutely does not know everything God knows. See Matt 24:36 for proof.

Do you think you are wise to know only one part of the whole bible that seem to suggest the Son of God is limited compared to the Father, and not even bother including what else is spoken at this same lace for clarity/understanding ?

Jesus is teaching us all that when they think there is any way they can know the time, it is not known to them, it is also told that Jesus our Lord comes at the time when we think not. ( when we have no faith to watch)

When the Son does not know, it is because all that is known is watching, as the Son of God has shown the time, it is WHEN you think not, the Son of an comes.



Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[gordon777]

Yes, you see, in the end, all nations will bear witness and testimony of Christ. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt. 24:14)

All nations have the Gospel preached to them, not that they bear witness.


Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

All nations have the Gospel preached to them, not that they bear witness.


Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

No, they must bear witness. "Dor I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” - Matt. 23:39

 

[gordon777]

Yes, you see, in the end, all nations will bear witness and testimony of Christ. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt. 24:14)

Regarding free will, men have no interest in God now, not the way you think you can show it. ( men in free will prefer the reprobate mind they are in)


Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

[gordon777]

No, they must bear witness. "Dor I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” - Matt. 23:39

They do not confess they deny as told..



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[gordon777]

I wonder why Jesus has to tell us about many false prophets rising to deceive many, if they do not try to deceive especially on Christian forums.



Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

They do not confess they deny as told..



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They - the Jews - will confess in the end.

 

[gordon777]

And the emptiness of people is known, by their use of exclamation marks, where is the very opposite of the right way seen in them, to stop their quick words and quick ways to wrath and to go and begin to understand the love of God is not in their word or tongue, is is in deed and in truth.


James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Regarding free will, men have no interest in God now, not the way you think you can show it. ( men in free will prefer the reprobate mind they are in)

Look, if you don't like the prophecy in Matt. 24:14, take Rev. 12:17 instead: And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[gordon777]

They - the Jews - will confess in the end.

What do false prophets speak like..


Isaiah 41:22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

 

[gordon777]

Look, if you don't like the prophecy in Matt. 24:14, take Rev. 12:17 instead: And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[gordon777]

Look, if you don't like the prophecy in Matt. 24:14, take Rev. 12:17 instead: And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is told here:


2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[gordon777]

That shows you speak of something other than what is done, because it testifies clearly, they believed. ( who heard he testimony of Jesus Christ, which was the Gentiles.)

 

[gordon777]

I have called on these moderators and this Christianforums.net, to regulate their threads better, instead of leaving people who want only debate, contention, strife, to move that All, to the controversial areas, how can it be promoted as theology and now to show theology in Christ as unity ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What do false prophets speak like..

OK, nice talk with you. Trust me I'm tired of debate as much as you do.

 

[Kermos]

Yes, Adam had a choice whether the obey or disobey the LORD.

Do you agree or disagree?

By God's grace, I agree with the Word of God, but now let's examine if you agree or disagree with the Word of God.

When you wrote "Adam had a choice whether the obey or disobey the LORD.", then you conveyed that Adam had knowledge of good in order for Adam to free-will choose the good of obeying the Word of God thus by extension you conveyed Adam has the knowledge of good to even choose YHWH God.

But, The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil (the sixth bullet point of the original post, the post you mentioned in your closing paragraph) shows that Adam did NOT know good and evil, so Adam could not choose the good because Adam did not know good.

Furthermore, Adam could not choose the evil because Adam did not know evil.

See, the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:6 both mention action for Adam, not choice by Adam, but truly Adam's action of eating or not eating. Later, after these passages, the Word of God declared:

Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever
(Genesis 3:22)
​

So, it was not until after Adam ate of the tree forbidden as food that Adam knew good and evil because the Word of God says "the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil".

The Word of God is absent of any mention of "choose" in the creation account.

The Holy Scripture is absent of man being imparted free-will.

Your "Adam had a choice whether the obey or disobey the LORD." disagrees with the Word of God "the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22) because your heart has Adam knowing good and evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[gordon777]

Adam did choose evil, because evil entered the world by Satan of course, speaking to Adam and Eve.

Good was known also, because God had spoken the good to Adam and Eve.


That is Satan giving darkness, and God giving light.

More darkness and light came to Adam and Eve ( to man) when they took from the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. ( light and darkness)


The same condemnation is for all men now, as for Adam and Eve, to hate the light, they go form it ( from what Gods testifies) and because they love darkness rather than light, they hear Satan instead of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Light excels darkness, Satans darkness is always corrected by the light. ( by the true light now shining.)



Ecclesiastes 2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.

2 Corinthians 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.


John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Runningman]

Do you think you are wise to know only one part of the whole bible that seem to suggest the Son of God is limited compared to the Father, and not even bother including what else is spoken at this same lace for clarity/understanding ?

Jesus is teaching us all that when they think there is any way they can know the time, it is not known to them, it is also told that Jesus our Lord comes at the time when we think not. ( when we have no faith to watch)

When the Son does not know, it is because all that is known is watching, as the Son of God has shown the time, it is WHEN you think not, the Son of an comes.



Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

I just quoted one example of Jesus not knowing what God knows, but there are more. I don't need to make long posts for them to be effective. I provided a single point of the Son not knowing what the Father knows. I am just simply showing that this exists and it's supportive of my belief that the Son is not God. Once you realize this is the scriptural reality, you won't stop seeing it from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Kermos]

Kermos, no one can come to the Father except through me only means that we need Jesus in order to go to God or walk with God.

It DOES NOT say that God CAUSES a person to come to God.

Hello wonderful,

Truly, Lord Jesus "DOES" "say that God CAUSES a person to come to God", and the linguistic proof is here.

Among the Lord's preciously precise words "no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6), we find the word of through, and earlier during our correspondence about this passage, God brought to my attention that the source Greek word of δι (Strong's 1223 - dia - through, on account of, because of) includes "because of" in the definition.

The word "because" means "being the cause", so we find an equivalent phrase of being the cause of with the word through in John 14:6. Let us behold the Word of God:

no one comes to the Father except because of Me
(John 14:6)
​

My Lord and my God's Word is absolutely exclusive. Christ alone causes salvation.

Christ's word of because inherently indicates cause in John 14:6, so your writing of "It DOES NOT say that God CAUSES a person to come to God" is woefully inaccurate.

I'm not going to go around in circles about this.
You have predetermined ideas and that's what you bring with you.
I do also, of course, except mine are orthodox and have been around from when Jesus died.
Your ideas have only been around for the past 400 years or so since Luther and Calvin.

If this is what you read in John 14:6, then so be it.

The linguistic examination of because and through, above, demonstrates that the Author and Perfecter of the faith, Jesus Christ, the Founder of Christianity, says 1,500 years-ish before Luther and Calvin were born that God exclusively causes persons of God's choosing to come to God (John 14:6).

Your word of "Your ideas have only been around for the past 400 years or so since Luther and Calvin" is woefully inaccurate.

I'm sorry to say that I'm not here for an English lesson.
Post a verse and we'll discuss it.

As many as RECEIVED HIM....HOW was Jesus received?
Where does it state God chose persons to receive Him?



Oh. I see what you mean.
Sure. But what does John 1:12-13 mean??

John 1:12-13
12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.
13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM:
Some heard Jesus
Some believed Him and received Him....Allowed Him into their heart.

HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD:
We can be called Children of God when we receive Jesus into our heart.

NOT WITH A PHYSICAL BIRTH RESULTING FROM PASSION OR PLAN, BUT A BIRTH THAT COMES FROM GOD:
We are not born spiritually at our birth. It does not depend on blood----our parents and childbirth.
Not by any plan that man might have made...
But by the plan that God made from before the world began.
This plan requires being born from above....John 3:5
We are required to walk in the light.....1 John 3:10 The walking is done by us with the help of the Holy Spirit.

You wrote "Allowed Him into their heart", but the concept of "Allowed" is absent John 1:12-13.

Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like Allowed - receive just happens - just as the carefully laid out definition in the post to which you replied.

Well, if you do not receive the true meaning of "receive", then you fail to communicate accurately. The word "receive" is part of this passage that you brought up:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God
(John 1:12-13).
​

You asked "HOW was Jesus received?", and the answer is in the passage where the Apostle John wrote "born" "of God", truly "not" "of the will of man", but "born" "of God" in Truth (John 14:6).

I believe we agree if by the above you mean that we come to the light because we practice the truth ---
not because God chose us --- But all good comes from the Father of light, and when we walk in the light we are doing what God wants....it is wrought in God.

The Word of God says:

he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)
​

You do not agree with Jesus Who says practices (John 3:21) is itself one of the deeds (John 3:21) that the Lord attributes as having been wrought in God (John 3:21).

Christ's words here mean that I do not agree with you either, especially about Who chooses who because this discourse says who you believe God is versus Who I believe God is, for the Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Adam did choose evil, because evil entered the world by Satan of course, speaking to Adam and Eve.

Good was known also, because God had spoken the good to Adam and Eve.

That was already planned out. "Man shall leave his parents and join his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." One of the most erroneous and consequential teaching is equating the fall with first time sexual intercourse, till this day, "taste the forbidden fruit" is still a euphemism for intercourse, but intercourse was exactly what God instructed Adam and Eve to do, sex is never a taboo subject in the bible. Ironically, after Adam and Eve were banished from the garden, the first thing they did was intercourse and pregnancy (Gen. 4:1), but nowhere in chapter 2 and 3 stated or implied that they had intercourse, so the events unfolded exactly as God said - first left their parents, then the two beaome one.