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savedbygrace57
Guest
way
Its heresy to think otherwise !
Its heresy to think otherwise !
Christian Forums
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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I don't understand how it is heresy to think that Christ was at one time a finite man. That was established as orthodox Christian belief at the Council of Chaledon. It would be heretical to claim that Christ was a finite being and an infinite being at the same time and in the same sense, but the only claim being made is that Christ was a finite being and infinite being at the same time. Claiming that Christ was an infinite being and finite being at the same time and in the same sense would imply that Christ had only 1 nature which encompassed both a human nature and a divine nature, but because Christ had 2 natures, an infinite nature that is essential and a finite nature that was contingent, it is entirely possible for Christ to have been both fully human and fully divine.
wayseer
Member
You are correct - it is not heresy.
What is a heresy is what I quoted
Note the 'never' included in the statement - exactly opposite to your position.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
eng
Thats the problem, you do not understand, I cannot give you understanding !
Thats the problem, you do not understand, I cannot give you understanding !
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Deborah13
Guest
Interesting, and a question that has come up more than once, for sure!
Let me throw in my
Two things:
1. God can not be tempted by sin. (Correct)
2. Christ was tempted in all ways as we are. (Also correct)
However, I do not think that there is a contradiction here...and I think that the Bible itself holds the answer to what seems a conundrum.
We have to (I think) keep in mind Christ's purpose, and His method of accomplishing this purpose.
We know that Jesus was fully God and also fully man (Hypostatic Union). In order for Christ to be our "kinsman redeemer", in order for Him to be "our High Priest and Mediator", in order for Him to "fulfill the law and the prophets", He had to live as a human being among us.
I believe that the key is found in Philippians 2:5-10 where we see that Jesus:
...made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus never "gave up" any attributes of deity, for then He would not be God. What He DID do was willingly operate within the limitations of being a man.
Therefore He became subject to the "Human Condition". He experienced sadness, pain, hunger, thirst, fatigue...and yes, temptation. I might point out that God does not experience pain, hunger, thirst or fatigue in the same way that God can not be tempted by sin.
Speaking of sin...Jesus never sinned. Temptation is not sin; yielding to temptation is sin which is ultimately disobedience to God. The desire to be obedient to the Father was the driving force with Jesus, therefore He did not succumb to any temptation that was offered to Him.
In overcoming all temptation, He became our Great High Priest and Mediator...and one who can sympathize with our weaknesses.
Anyway...my take on the subject.
Your take is a good one.
So there was no temptation? There was no pull to do wrong, to sin? Then it was not a temptation at all and the Bible cannot be trusted because it says He was tempted...
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So this is not really true? He was not tempted to take a short cut, not tempted to do it the easy way, not tempted to...
One can be tempted without sinning, if being tempted is sin, then you might as well go ahead and sin...
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
And sin all you want for you are already guilty before you ever commit an act just because the pull was there to do it.
stovebolts
Member
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Something to ponder.... Imagine that, Jesus in submission to the Father's will. Not to side track the discussion or anything... just kind of thinking out loud is all...
Something to ponder.... Imagine that, Jesus in submission to the Father's will. Not to side track the discussion or anything... just kind of thinking out loud is all...
stovebolts
Member
small said:
Not really. Call it what you will, I just can't hear you through the sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.
g'day.
Finally, something we agree on!
You seem to be saying that we give in to temptation because we are already evil anyway?
Well, was Eve internally evil before the Fall, since she succumbed to temptation?
I always thought that her evil choice is what gave her an evil nature. Not the other way round.
What do you think?
stovebolts
Member
Luke 11:33 “No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are healthy, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are unhealthy, your body also is full of darkness. 35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. 36 Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you.”
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all his innermost parts.
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all his innermost parts.
wayseer
Member
smaller
Member
This is a thread about the temptation of Jesus. In Him Is No Sin.
It can be a very interesting conversation from there about any of us. Quite interesting. Cutting to the chase on that matter, believers are both Perfect In Him and simultaneously can have the most vile thing on the planet within the same lump.
That takes a fair amount of scripture to show, and most will reject it at the outset, immediately, never ever thinking they have the most vile thing on the planet within them. But with just a small bit of critical thinking, if one understands that temptation is of the tempter, the devil, within the mind and heart, THERE is the cause of that vileness within. Emphasis 'within.' Place that working 'where' it belongs and you will see 'who' is evil and 'who' is not.
Jesus had zero such internal violations.
Of course not. It was not possible for Eve to be anything other than what she was, a CHILD OF GOD.
But that is not 'all' that is in the dust pile of humanity, then or now.
Jesus was THEE SOLE EXCEPTION to internal violation.
To see the source of evil, please refer to the above in relationship to the tempter.
Paul also teaches this exact same matter in many places as does Jesus. My favorite from Jesus is Mark 4:15 which shows the 'entrance' of the thief into the hearts and 'how' he is impelled therein. If you see that with Adam and Eve in the Garden, you'll know what happened to them inside.
I think it is a most difficult conversation to have because of the presence of the accuser of the brethren.
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smaller
Member
If you want to claim Jesus drooled in His Heart and Mind over beautiful women like 99.9999999999% of all males including christians, knock yerself out.
I'd say that didn't happen within Him and that it does happen and IS A SIN in the balance.
Many have the false notion that sins are only sins when 'externalized.' That is NOT the case. The instant that temptation hits the MIND and HEART it is SIN within. Just because 'religious cloaks' do a good cover up job on the matters doesn't change the facts.
You might consider that the entrance of the tempter in mind and heart places the operator of every sin that has ever existed on the face of the planet WITHIN the mind and heart. What you are and what the tempter is are two entirely different matters. That is, if you can perceive this conversation.
I'd suggest a read through the prior posts.
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Asyncritus
Guest
You didn't address any of the points I made. Instead, you simply attacked me as a person. That isn't very conducive to dialogue..
tkstone
Member
Well said. While I am sure there were other temptations in the life of Jesus prior to the wilderness experience, I find it interesting that the first temptation mentioned is to doubt what God said about Him in much the same way Eve was tempted. As His baptism God declares over Jesus, "You are my beloved Son; In You I am well pleased." Satan's first temptation directed toward Him was to doubt that declaration. "If you are the son of God..." That would definitely seem to confirm the Hebrew 4:15, ..."but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
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savedbygrace57
Guest
You cannot understand my points, so there cannot be dialogue. I cannot dialogue with a person that lacks understanding of my points, if you consider that an attack, so be it, that is just another manifestation of what I perceive as you not having understanding, I am just keeping it real. Jesus Christ was not a finite man. Yes He was a Man but not finite, He was never from the Earth as all other men are !
Jn 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:22-24&version=KJV