Was Jesus against organized religion?

[Drew]

I am well acquainted with the triumphalist doctrine. There is a preterist bent to it. Thy kingdom come is still in the future. We only have the firstfruits at this present time for those who surrender to the Lordship of Christ.

Do you have any scriptural arguments against such a view?

 

[Drew]

John 14:30 (New International Version)
30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,

This text does not support your position. Jesus says these things before His victory over Satan on the cross. On this side of the cross, Jesus is Lord - just as He says in that text from Matthew 28.

Besides, if Jesus is in charge of this world right now, there is no wars, hatred, tears, diseases and all kinds of grievances. Jesus is prince of peace.

Kingship does not mean that all problems are magically solved. Do you really want to get into this? I have many many texts to provide in support of the case that Jesus presently reigns as king.

I have already given one from Matthew 28. No one has challenged my take on the meaning of that text. Perhaps you can explain how all authority on earth has already been given to Jesus and yet He is not King and Lord of this present world. I certainly would not know how to make such a case.

 

[shad]

This text does not support your position. Jesus says these things before His victory over Satan on the cross. On this side of the cross, Jesus is Lord - just as He says in that text from Matthew 28.

We have to agree to disagree, I believe you are wrong. We are reading the Scripture differently.

Kingship does not mean that all problems are magically solved. Do you really want to get into this? I have many many texts to provide in support of the case that Jesus presently reigns as king.

Sure you can list them all.

I have already given one from Matthew 28. No one has challenged my take on the meaning of that text. Perhaps you can explain how all authority on earth has already been given to Jesus and yet He is not King and Lord of this present world. I certainly would not know how to make such a case.

If Jesus is in charge right now, then why do we still have hateful world? Jesus is prince of peace.

.

 

[dadof10]

What the Lord gives to Joe...He gives to Joe. What the Lord gives to me...He gives to me. Spiritual understanding, I don't believe, will conflict with the literal understanding but...it will not be the same.

Is that what Joe is getting from the Lord? Does it conflict with the literal?...Right, I don't know either, which is why I'd like to hear what his two or three "gifts" are.

Does the hearer of what was given to another have the same eyes and ears? Do they have the same appetite? Of course not. We are all at different stages in our walk.

If Joe is getting personal revelation from the Lord, which applies ONLY to him, OK. That's between God and him. From this part of his post, he seems to disagree with my LITERAL take:

The overall external actions of the believers in Jesus that are mentioned in the above paragraph [my paragraph] are true. The actions of most of the same believers before Acts 15 and after Acts 15, as recorded in the Scriptural history that I hear, both broaden and deepen the story and thereby the judgment of thought as to the meaning of the Acts 15 event and written statement issued thereby.

It does not seem good to examine the above paragraph [again, my paragraph] point by point, for that would just lead to an argument and history is well established as to the differences that have issued in connection with the above mentioned council of Acts 15.

First of all, he DISAGREES with my paragraph, which is my take on an historical account. Secondly, as I said, I have never heard of any "well established...differences" of the literal interpretation of Acts 15, so would like to hear his. What is wrong with that?

What is foolishness to one is truth to another. Or...as Joe put it.... "Now the Lord has given me to see that there are 2, yes even 3, pictures bound up in the event(s) of that council."

Really. So is there no objective Truth? Should we just accept everyone's interpretation if they say "the Lord has given me..."? If so, the Catholic Church is the True Church and teaches exactly what the Holy Spirit wants taught...The Lord gave this to me. Welcome to the Catholic Church. :P

Who do you think is the "arbiter of revealed Truth"? If not the Catholic Church or me, is it Joe, you?

It certainly isn't the Catholic Church. Nor is it the Baptist church...nor is it the Lutheran Church. The Holy Spirit impresses on our hearts what is truth.

So if we disagree on a point of doctrine, who is getting the Truth "impressed" and who is honestly mistaken? How do we tell if there is no "arbiter"?

It is He that reveals and when He does....we know!

Again, if you are referring to personal revelation, then I agree with you. If we are talking about a doctrinal point, I completely disagree. If two well meaning Christians disagree on the doctrine of,...say...OSAS, how are they supposed to come to a decision as to who's receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit and who is mistaken? How did the Apostolic Church settle doctrinal disputes (Hint..Acts 15)?

They went to the arbiter, the Church.

I'm sure Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russell, etc. felt the same way you do. They KNEW it was the Holy Spirit talking to them.

 

[Drew]

If Jesus is in charge right now, then why do we still have hateful world? Jesus is prince of peace.

I agree that I need to give some kind of an answer to this question.

And you have to explain how Jesus can already have all authority on earth and yet, strangely, not be in charge.

 

[shad]

If Jesus is in charge right now, then why do we still have hateful world? Jesus is prince of peace.

I agree that I need to give some kind of an answer to this question.

And you have to explain how Jesus can already have all authority on earth and yet, strangely, not be in charge.

Ok, this is just my reasoning:

Jesus has been given the authority on earth but He is not excising it yet, He has to judge us first, then He starts God's kingdom on earth.

.

 

[francisdesales]

The question is whether JESUS WAS AGAINST ORGANIZED RELIGIONS. Can you actually provide some of JESUS' OPINIONS, rather than your own???

What did HE say on the matter???

I ask you, yet again, where does the Sacred Scriptures tell us anything about Jesus' teachings that He was against organized religions??? Please don't tell me what YOU think, I don't care. What does Jesus say on the matter...

Thanks

8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. 11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; 12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Sorry, this does not say Jesus is against organized religions - for if THAT was all He said on the matter, He would never spoke to Peter and gave him (and the other apostles) the responsibility to teach and to preach to the world. He never would have gave them the power to bind and loosen upon the community. Clearly, the NT is full of references to an ORGANIZED Christian community.

Unfortunately for you, this proof text does not state that Jesus desires all organized religions to be eliminated. It is important to read all that Jesus said, not taking a verse out of context. Jesus is speaking against hypocritical teachers who teach one thing and do another. The greatest LEADER shall be as a servant. Again, Jesus is teaching a leadership model! Thus, your model continues to be anti-scriptural.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus has been given the authority on earth but He is not excising it yet, He has to judge us first, then He starts God's kingdom on earth.

.

The Kingdom of God has already broken into this world. It is just not completely manifested yet.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

Jesus is counter-balancing "the world" vs "the Kingdom". Judeo-Christian tradition has always held to two ways - as the First Psalm relates... The Kingdom of Heaven, where one is meek, humble, poor of spirit, clean of heart, etc., is not something that comes from following the ways of the world - which means fulfilling our selfish desires to be in charge of our own life, to be proud, to do evil, etc... It is not a matter of a kingdom IN heaven, but FROM heaven, manifested here now on earth among the children of God. Jesus came so that we can have life and have it to the fullest - NOW...

It is unfortunate the some Christians have your attitude, which separates them from the world. They prefer to be a city "underground", a light under a bushel basket. They prefer to worry only about themselves and a select few people they deem worthy of their attention. A reading of the New Testament does NOT allow such a Christianity. Go read James 1-2, if you want something shorter to read. Christianity is reaching out to the destitute, the poor, those living in the world, not a few select people in your little ivy tower...

 

[Adullam]

The question is whether JESUS WAS AGAINST ORGANIZED RELIGIONS. Can you actually provide some of JESUS' OPINIONS, rather than your own???

What did HE say on the matter???

I ask you, yet again, where does the Sacred Scriptures tell us anything about Jesus' teachings that He was against organized religions??? Please don't tell me what YOU think, I don't care. What does Jesus say on the matter...

Thanks

8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. 11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; 12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Sorry, this does not say Jesus is against organized religions - for if THAT was all He said on the matter, He would never spoke to Peter and gave him (and the other apostles) the responsibility to teach and to preach to the world. He never would have gave them the power to bind and loosen upon the community. Clearly, the NT is full of references to an ORGANIZED Christian community.

Unfortunately for you, this proof text does not state that Jesus desires all organized religions to be eliminated. It is important to read all that Jesus said, not taking a verse out of context. Jesus is speaking against hypocritical teachers who teach one thing and do another. The greatest LEADER shall be as a servant. Again, Jesus is teaching a leadership model! Thus, your model continues to be anti-scriptural.

Ironically, I only posted bible verses. The bible holds to order, not organization. God is not the author of confusion. Neither is He the author of earthly institutions. (Even if we give them biblical sounding titles)

Those who are further ahead in the heavenly walk help to guide those who are younger in the faith. Those who have grown in authority exercise that authority according to their faith(as a manisfestation of the kingdom of God). I have already explained what constitutes an institution according to this world. Human organizations are under the authority of the yet ruling principalities. You cannot humanly organize the Holy Spirit. This is the vast miscalculation of all denominations and ecclesiastical institutions. They achieve the opposite of what they set out to do. Order in the church is accomplished through the Holy Spirit with the authority given by the Holy Spirit. No one masters the truth....but will truth master the man?

 

[Adullam]

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

Jesus is counter-balancing "the world" vs "the Kingdom". Judeo-Christian tradition has always held to two ways - as the First Psalm relates... The Kingdom of Heaven, where one is meek, humble, poor of spirit, clean of heart, etc., is not something that comes from following the ways of the world - which means fulfilling our selfish desires to be in charge of our own life, to be proud, to do evil, etc... It is not a matter of a kingdom IN heaven, but FROM heaven, manifested here now on earth among the children of God. Jesus came so that we can have life and have it to the fullest - NOW...

It is unfortunate the some Christians have your attitude, which separates them from the world. They prefer to be a city "underground", a light under a bushel basket. They prefer to worry only about themselves and a select few people they deem worthy of their attention. A reading of the New Testament does NOT allow such a Christianity. Go read James 1-2, if you want something shorter to read. Christianity is reaching out to the destitute, the poor, those living in the world, not a few select people in your little ivy tower...

We prefer reality. The life that Jesus came to bring isn't on travel brochures.

Ironically, I have been advocating the rule of the kingdom throughout these posts and you resist that as an ivory tower. Your arguments are upside down and illogical. On the one had you deny the presence of ultimate grace, and on the other you say we are almost at full kingdom realization. Have you given any of these absurd statements any thought? Is there any balance whatsoever in any of your viewpoints?

If I say that we have been given the grace to overcome sin...you will say that's not so. And we are talking about believers here. So there is no authority over sin being manifested here in your view. Yet you advocate the authority to loose and to bind????? What amazing lack of insight! Are you not here revealing that you are a dilletante in matters of the faith?

Is the kingdom of God still under the curse of sin? You have invented a partial kingdom and a partial Jesus. This is called lukewarmness. Partially hot and partially cold. Rather, Jesus is either fully manifested or He is not. Likewise with the kingdom. Would you say...Half of God showed up the other day!!! If so...which half???? :crazy

I appeal to any logic you may yet possess....If an army has partially conquered a territory....doesn't that mean that at least some of the land has been totally subjugated?

 

[Drew]

You have invented a partial kingdom and a partial Jesus. This is called lukewarmness. Partially hot and partially cold. Rather, Jesus is either fully manifested or He is not.

I doubt it.

As far as I can tell, you have given no evidence against what I believe is the Biblically correct position - that Jesus is already reigning and yet we await the final coming consummation. The Biblical picture is not the "either / or" situation you seem to think it is.

Jesus is risen as Lord of the Universe and the project of new creation has begun. The kingdom has broken into the world through Jesus' ministry 2000 years ago. Jesus tells us this plainly - the kingdom is already here. And yet, of course, the forces of evil are not fully subjected yet. This is hardly surprising and in perfect accord with the scriptures:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The picture is clear: Jesus is the first fruits and is reigning. In God's mysterious plans, the Kingdom has already broken into the world. Christ has been installed and a little part of the future full manifestation has been brought into our times. This is not lukewarmness - it is the rich Biblical picture.

There is clear Biblical evidence of this mysterious presence of a kingdom which awaits its full consummation. And the evidence in question is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Note how Paul describes it here:

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You accuse us of inventing a “partial†kingdom. Well, we are only agreeing with Paul. The Spirit has already been given. And it is given as a down-payment, a fore-taste, an “advance†if you will, on the coming consummation.

So the scriptural picture indeed portrays a kingdom that is already here and yet still awaiting full consummation. The picture you paint is deeply at odds with the scriptures on this matter.

 

[francisdesales]

Ironically, I only posted bible verses.

Which ironically still do not tell us that Jesus was against any organizations, per sec. Judaism was organized by God, was it not? Did Jesus call for the disbandment of Judaism? Not once.

The bible holds to order, not organization. God is not the author of confusion. Neither is He the author of earthly institutions. (Even if we give them biblical sounding titles)

Order comes from organization, not wishful thinking. There cannot be order among humans without it... God is not the author of confusion, and the confusion reigning among non-denominationals is strictly a result of self-proclaimed popes claiming to be personally led by the "spirit" while disagreeing about WHO God is, and so forth.

Human organizations are under the authority of the yet ruling principalities. You cannot humanly organize the Holy Spirit. This is the vast miscalculation of all denominations and ecclesiastical institutions. They achieve the opposite of what they set out to do. Order in the church is accomplished through the Holy Spirit with the authority given by the Holy Spirit. No one masters the truth....but will truth master the man?

The Church is not a "human organization" only, its builder is Christ and the Apostles... It has a divine purpose and utilizes humans led by the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures, is given to specific men for the purpose of leading other Christians among the community. Order is accomplished through the Holy Spirit working THROUGH particular men. Not directly. All gifts are manifested THROUGH men for the sake of the entire Church. There is no such paradigm in Scriptures for independently-minded Christians who go it alone, nor does Jesus tell us that He was against organized religion. Thus, you continue to provide smoke and mirrors. It is a vast miscalculation of "non-denominationals" that the Spirit has chosen to come to "lead them personally to all truth". What you do is even worse than what you accuse the institutional church of - at least they have scriptural warrant...

God is not a God of confusion, and the "church of one" people are confused, since they cannot agree on much of anything doctrinal EXCEPT that they claim to be personally led by God's Spirit...

Thus, the answer to the OP question is "NO"... He did not come to "free" you from "institutional religion"... He IMPLEMENTED IT FURTHER BY ESTABLISHING AN INSTITUTIONAL AND HIGHLY ORGANIZED CHURCH...

 

[Adullam]

You have invented a partial kingdom and a partial Jesus. This is called lukewarmness. Partially hot and partially cold. Rather, Jesus is either fully manifested or He is not.

I doubt it.

As far as I can tell, you have given no evidence against what I believe is the Biblically correct position - that Jesus is already reigning and yet we await the final coming consummation. The Biblical picture is not the "either / or" situation you seem to think it is.

Jesus is risen as Lord of the Universe and the project of new creation has begun. The kingdom has broken into the world through Jesus' ministry 2000 years ago. Jesus tells us this plainly - the kingdom is already here. And yet, of course, the forces of evil are not fully subjected yet. This is hardly surprising and in perfect accord with the scriptures:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The picture is clear: Jesus is the first fruits and is reigning. In God's mysterious plans, the Kingdom has already broken into the world. Christ has been installed and a little part of the future full manifestation has been brought into our times. This is not lukewarmness - it is the rich Biblical picture.

There is clear Biblical evidence of this mysterious presence of a kingdom which awaits its full consummation. And the evidence in question is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Note how Paul describes it here:

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You accuse us of inventing a “partial†kingdom. Well, we are only agreeing with Paul. The Spirit has already been given. And it is given as a down-payment, a fore-taste, an “advance†if you will, on the coming consummation.

So the scriptural picture indeed portrays a kingdom that is already here and yet still awaiting full consummation. The picture you paint is deeply at odds with the scriptures on this matter.

You are missing the ramifications of said scriptures. If the kingdom of God is here in any way shape or form it must be entirely where it is. A deposit is not partially money...it is fully money. Disciples of Christ are a tiny fraction of they that inhabit this world. If even these precious few cannot fully exhibit Christ among them....then there is no presence yet possible of the kingdom. We must wait for Christ or for those who are fully His to appear.

If one argues that the kingdom of God has a foothold in this world, then the bridgehead must be fully Christ's to command. No army advances that is divided against itself. If we argue for a victory over sin...then that is a start. If no one can overcome sin even within themselves, then the idea of the presence of the kingdom is moot.

 

[shad]

The Kingdom of God has already broken into this world. It is just not completely manifested yet.

Regards

Then why do we see so many hatred in th world? Jesus is prince of peace not prince of hatred.

When Jesus starts God's kingdom, it will be complete peace on earth, perfect earth and world.

.

 

[Drew]

You are missing the ramifications of said scriptures. If the kingdom of God is here in any way shape or form it must be entirely where it is. A deposit is not partially money...it is fully money.

I am only agreeing with Paul. We know that the final end state of the kingdom is not here. There is still death and there is still sin. So the kingdom has not yet been consummated - it has not reached its goal. But the project is underway. And elements of that future consummation are already with us in the present - the gift of the Holy Spirit, for example. The scriptures say what they say - I am sorry that this does not line up with what you believe to be the case.

 

[Drew]

I am not sure where the Biblical grounds is to deny the "inbroken and yet not totally realized" nature of the Kingdom. Again, from Ephesians 1:

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

How is this not clear? We already have the Spirit. Paul describes it as pledge, a down-payment, an "advance" on something that we await - a coming inheritance. But let's be clear - the Spirit is with us now, so a little bit of the future glorious kingdom is already here.

 

[Adullam]

Ironically, I only posted bible verses.

Which ironically still do not tell us that Jesus was against any organizations, per sec. Judaism was organized by God, was it not? Did Jesus call for the disbandment of Judaism? Not once.

Judaism was plan B. Once Jesus Christ was manifest in the world, those who would worship must now do so in Spirit and truth. Gone are the icons, the representations, the idols, the liturgies. We can now walk in supernatural power. The ceremony is past...the reality is here. This is the presence of the kingdom in our midst.

The bible holds to order, not organization. God is not the author of confusion. Neither is He the author of earthly institutions. (Even if we give them biblical sounding titles)

Order comes from organization, not wishful thinking. There cannot be order among humans without it... God is not the author of confusion, and the confusion reigning among non-denominationals is strictly a result of self-proclaimed popes claiming to be personally led by the "spirit" while disagreeing about WHO God is, and so forth.

Let us not get into proclaiming popes. ;) You confuse simple apostolic community churches with protestant institutions. These institutions are just different flavours of the same pagan way of being religious. Disciples are not such unless they are led of the Spirit. No one lords it over the flock. You are only assuming that others do as you. We don't need popes, we have Christ. He is risen, you know!?

We do not argue over who God is. God is God. The real debate is who the real Christians are. There are only 2 types of Christians. The spiritual and the carnal.

Human organizations are under the authority of the yet ruling principalities. You cannot humanly organize the Holy Spirit. This is the vast miscalculation of all denominations and ecclesiastical institutions. They achieve the opposite of what they set out to do. Order in the church is accomplished through the Holy Spirit with the authority given by the Holy Spirit. No one masters the truth....but will truth master the man?

The Church is not a "human organization" only, its builder is Christ and the Apostles... It has a divine purpose and utilizes humans led by the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures, is given to specific men for the purpose of leading other Christians among the community. Order is accomplished through the Holy Spirit working THROUGH particular men. Not directly. All gifts are manifested THROUGH men for the sake of the entire Church. There is no such paradigm in Scriptures for independently-minded Christians who go it alone, nor does Jesus tell us that He was against organized religion. Thus, you continue to provide smoke and mirrors. It is a vast miscalculation of "non-denominationals" that the Spirit has chosen to come to "lead them personally to all truth". What you do is even worse than what you accuse the institutional church of - at least they have scriptural warrant...

That is my argument! Who is arguing about going it alone? You see nothing if it is not in the extreme. If it isn't the size of a pea then it must be an aircraft carrier. If we are to avert chaos we must offer pagan sacrifices for the sake of order. :crazy

In the same way that Judaism left God out, so it is with institutional churchianity. We can follow the Lord without human interference. History has shown and continues to show that human interference gets in the way of God's way. People love to control things. They seek power. God's way is the way of powerlessness. You should read this Catholic writer named Henri Nouwen. You can read more about the way of Christ from one of your own "kind." Perhaps he can reach you beyond your programming.

Have you read about the transfiguration of Christ and the enthusiasm of Peter to build booths? Peter wanted to organize a spiritual event. So naive! Peter had not yet learned to not think like a human. Jesus rebuked satan in Peter when he exhibited this carnal tendency. I can do no other, myself.

God is not a God of confusion, and the "church of one" people are confused, since they cannot agree on much of anything doctrinal EXCEPT that they claim to be personally led by God's Spirit...

Thus, the answer to the OP question is "NO"... He did not come to "free" you from "institutional religion"... He IMPLEMENTED IT FURTHER BY ESTABLISHING AN INSTITUTIONAL AND HIGHLY ORGANIZED CHURCH...

How naive ....

 

[francisdesales]

Ironically, I have been advocating the rule of the kingdom throughout these posts and you resist that as an ivory tower.

Yes, YOUR kingdom, not the Biblical Kingdom that Jesus announces... The Kingdom has broken into this world already, but is not fully realized - by me, and certainly not by self-proclaimed "perfects" who are not very handy with proving their points from Scriptures...

Your arguments are upside down and illogical. On the one had you deny the presence of ultimate grace, and on the other you say we are almost at full kingdom realization.

I don't deny the presence of ultimate grace - I just disagree that "ultimate grace" must be manifest in ONLY THE WAYS YOU SAY it must be manifested. In other words, only "perfects" are "truly" filled with Grace. With you, the fullness of God must dwell entirely, or not at all. This is another poor understanding of Sacred Scriptures, which speaks over and over to people who are spiritually immature and weak, but YET, BURIED WITH CHRIST through baptism. Given the first fruits of the Holy Spirit.

FIRST FRUITS. Not the entire gift...

Have you given any of these absurd statements any thought? Is there any balance whatsoever in any of your viewpoints?

Yes, I have given your absurd statements thought and dismiss it as more rhetoric... I still do not find where Jesus tells us we must destroy all earthly organizations, or where Jesus says that the search for God MUST be through independent and non-institutional means.

If I say that we have been given the grace to overcome sin...you will say that's not so.

Again, you think your self-proclaimed infallibility pretends to extend to the thoughts of other people. When have I said or even implied that we have NOT been given the grace to overcome sin? Of course we have, but we REMAIN imperfect and susceptible to temptations and our own wounded desires that conflict with God's. My sin does not mean that God's graces have not fallen upon me.

And we are talking about believers here. So there is no authority over sin being manifested here in your view. Yet you advocate the authority to loose and to bind?????

The authority to bind and loosen has absolutely NOTHING to do with sin being manifested in the believer... Typical "non-denomitional" eigesis that cannot just plainly read the Bible, but must imprint their own opinions into it. Matthew 16 says absolutely nothing about such things.

Is the kingdom of God still under the curse of sin? You have invented a partial kingdom and a partial Jesus. This is called lukewarmness. Partially hot and partially cold. Rather, Jesus is either fully manifested or He is not.

Scriptures, please...

Likewise with the kingdom. Would you say...Half of God showed up the other day!!! If so...which half???? :crazy

It appears you do not understand the Kingdom parables that I have already posted. Or you just ignore them because you don't like that Jesus disagrees with you...

God's work is manifested, but all things are not brought to conclusion yet. It is not an "either its there in its entirety" or "it is not here at all".

The Kingdom of God [heaven] is like a mustard seed...

Is the seed fully developed? Is the seed NOT there because it is not a bush?

YET IT IS THERE! NOT FULLY DEVELOPED YET...

Need I say more? Clearly, you need to study the Scriptures a bit more and stop attacking people you deem "dead in Christ" because they hold to a set of beliefs...

I appeal to any logic you may yet possess....If an army has partially conquered a territory....doesn't that mean that at least some of the land has been totally subjugated?

LOL! As usual, your warfare analogies fail...

Did the Germans totally control every square foot of Russia in 1942, even though they had "totally subjugated" the country? France??? Poland??? Ever hear of partisans? Every person in occupied country became entirely friendly to the Germans? Please... Your analogies merely prove you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Drew]

If one argues that the kingdom of God has a foothold in this world, then the bridgehead must be fully Christ's to command.

Where do you get this "rule" from? Certainly not from Paul who declared that Jesus must reign until He has subjugated all his enemies. The rather clear take-away: we have a reigning King Jesus who, through various means not least the church, is presently engaged in battle with the enemy. The battle is still underway, but Jesus reigns.