Was Jesus against organized religion?

[Sparkey]

How do you mean? say on!!

Well, first of all I want to say that I do agree with the heart of what you are saying and that I don't think that the "church" at large is doing the best job in following after Christ Jesus. This is almost too obvious for anyone to say it but my point is that corporate churches who are empowered by the state to become "entities" that can interact legally and are "protected" by man's law are typically not the best examples of Godliness seen in the land.

The balance that I would seek to bring is that we are indeed taught to not forsake the joining of ourselves together and as one who is currently un-churched and seeking to be led to an UnderShepherd of our Lord for Godly purpose, I am not in the right place whatsoever to be overly critical.

Jesus did go to the temple and did become zealous for the house of God. He was incensed and took the time necessary to make a whip --it wasn't a spur of the moment thing --and He did drive out the money changers from a building that was supposed to be designed for true worship of our Father.

His point wasn't (at that time) that it was the building that was the offense but rather the use of that building, right?

When he spoke to the Samaritan woman he pointed out that "the hour is coming, and now is, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. She had pointed out and addressed your point exactly: that "her people" worshiped in the Mountain while the Jews said that Jerusalem is the "right" place where one ought to worship.

• Jhn 4:23 NKJV - But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
  
  Jhn 4:24 NKJV - God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

There are many Scriptures to support your point:

• Jhn 14:17 NKJV - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
  
  Jhn 16:13 NKJV - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
  
  Eph 5:9 NKJV - (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
  
  2Th 2:13 NKJV - But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
  
  1Jo 4:6 NKJV - We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
  
  1Jo 5:6 NKJV - This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

My only thought about "balance" is that to one in the desert who lacks the rain falling from fellowship ---> the blessing of any assembly that worships the Lord God is indeed a blessing. That's all.

Thanks, Adullam for this post.
I do agree with you and know that the Lord God is not pleased with the sacrifice of bulls but desires praise, is not looking for great and wonder building projects and the "mighty" works of man -- but indeed seeks those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[dadof10]

40+ years ago I thought there was only one true understanding of Acts 15. Now the Lord has given me to see that there are 2, yes even 3, pictures bound up in the event(s) of that council.

So, when others have different understandings wherein they live the life that is in Jesus our Lord, now I am more at peace in this manifold wisdom.

I don't understand your reluctance to discuss. If you would like to post what "the Lord has given" you, go ahead and I'll see if it corresponds with common sense. If not, maybe what "the Lord has given" you doesn't actually make sense and, therefore, didn't come from "the Lord".

I find it helpful to get council when I interpret Scripture, that way I know if what I personally think conflicts with revealed Truth. I'd be happy to let you bounce your interpretation off me and let you know if it's actually from the Holy Spirit or not.

I don't think you meant it the way it sounded but..... :shocked!

Are you the Holy Spirit? Are you the authority on the Holy Spirit? Do all revelations go through you before others should recognize they are of the Holy Spirit? Are you the arbiter of "revealed truth?"

Of course not, it was an attempt at irony. We are talking about Acts 15 and doctrinal discernment. But isn't that close to what Joe is asserting? He DID say he received his interpretations from "the Lord". If so, Truth has been revealed through him and to disagree with him is to disagree with "the Lord", at least in his mind. Do you believe "the Lord has given" him these two or three "pictures" on Acts 15, without even hearing them to decide for yourself?

Many people claim "the Lord" gives them things, yet sometimes these things contradict Truth that has already been revealed. There has to be, as you put it, an "arbiter" of what is "given" by the Lord and what is not. I'm definitely NOT that arbiter. I follow, as the early Christians did, the Church founded by the Lord. Acts 15 shows HOW this Church operated when there was a doctrinal dispute and the Catholic Church still operates exactly like that today, which is why I follow as the early Christians did.

Who do you think is the "arbiter of revealed Truth"? If not the Catholic Church or me, is it Joe, you?

 

[whirlwind]

I don't understand your reluctance to discuss. If you would like to post what "the Lord has given" you, go ahead and I'll see if it corresponds with common sense. If not, maybe what "the Lord has given" you doesn't actually make sense and, therefore, didn't come from "the Lord".

I find it helpful to get council when I interpret Scripture, that way I know if what I personally think conflicts with revealed Truth. I'd be happy to let you bounce your interpretation off me and let you know if it's actually from the Holy Spirit or not.

I don't think you meant it the way it sounded but..... :shocked!

Are you the Holy Spirit? Are you the authority on the Holy Spirit? Do all revelations go through you before others should recognize they are of the Holy Spirit? Are you the arbiter of "revealed truth?"

Of course not, it was an attempt at irony. We are talking about Acts 15 and doctrinal discernment. But isn't that close to what Joe is asserting? He DID say he received his interpretations from "the Lord". If so, Truth has been revealed through him and to disagree with him is to disagree with "the Lord", at least in his mind. Do you believe "the Lord has given" him these two or three "pictures" on Acts 15, without even hearing them to decide for yourself?

What the Lord gives to Joe...He gives to Joe. What the Lord gives to me...He gives to me. Spiritual understanding, I don't believe, will conflict with the literal understanding but...it will not be the same. Does the hearer of what was given to another have the same eyes and ears? Do they have the same appetite? Of course not. We are all at different stages in our walk. What is foolishness to one is truth to another. Or...as Joe put it.... "Now the Lord has given me to see that there are 2, yes even 3, pictures bound up in the event(s) of that council."

Many people claim "the Lord" gives them things, yet sometimes these things contradict Truth that has already been revealed. There has to be, as you put it, an "arbiter" of what is "given" by the Lord and what is not. I'm definitely NOT that arbiter. I follow, as the early Christians did, the Church founded by the Lord. Acts 15 shows HOW this Church operated when there was a doctrinal dispute and the Catholic Church still operates exactly like that today, which is why I follow as the early Christians did.

Who do you think is the "arbiter of revealed Truth"? If not the Catholic Church or me, is it Joe, you?

It certainly isn't the Catholic Church. Nor is it the Baptist church...nor is it the Lutheran Church. The Holy Spirit impresses on our hearts what is truth. It is He that reveals and when He does....we know! Again, as Joe said...."So, when others have different understandings wherein they live the life that is in Jesus our Lord, now I am more at peace in this manifold wisdom."


As am I. :amen

 

[Adullam]

How do you mean? say on!!

Well, first of all I want to say that I do agree with the heart of what you are saying and that I don't think that the "church" at large is doing the best job in following after Christ Jesus. This is almost too obvious for anyone to say it but my point is that corporate churches who are empowered by the state to become "entities" that can interact legally and are "protected" by man's law are typically not the best examples of Godliness seen in the land.

The balance that I would seek to bring is that we are indeed taught to not forsake the joining of ourselves together and as one who is currently un-churched and seeking to be led to an UnderShepherd of our Lord for Godly purpose, I am not in the right place whatsoever to be overly critical.

Jesus did go to the temple and did become zealous for the house of God. He was incensed and took the time necessary to make a whip --it wasn't a spur of the moment thing --and He did drive out the money changers from a building that was supposed to be designed for true worship of our Father.

His point wasn't (at that time) that it was the building that was the offense but rather the use of that building, right?

When he spoke to the Samaritan woman he pointed out that "the hour is coming, and now is, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. She had pointed out and addressed your point exactly: that "her people" worshiped in the Mountain while the Jews said that Jerusalem is the "right" place where one ought to worship.

• Jhn 4:23 NKJV - But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
  
  Jhn 4:24 NKJV - God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

There are many Scriptures to support your point:

• Jhn 14:17 NKJV - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
  
  Jhn 16:13 NKJV - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
  
  Eph 5:9 NKJV - (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
  
  2Th 2:13 NKJV - But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
  
  1Jo 4:6 NKJV - We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
  
  1Jo 5:6 NKJV - This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

My only thought about "balance" is that to one in the desert who lacks the rain falling from fellowship ---> the blessing of any assembly that worships the Lord God is indeed a blessing. That's all.

Thanks, Adullam for this post.
I do agree with you and know that the Lord God is not pleased with the sacrifice of bulls but desires praise, is not looking for great and wonder building projects and the "mighty" works of man -- but indeed seeks those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

Amen Sparrow! :amen It certainly is not the building itself that constitutes the departure from biblical practice. It is the incorporation with the worldly systems and the reliance on worldly authority that does this. Many believers are ignorant of the spiritual reality of principalities and powers that squat over the earth. Satan rules the world through these usurpers of authority. These cater to fallen man and his ways. Rather than displacing these by growing into a place of spiritual authority themselves, many submit to the present leadership structures and remain conformed to this world. They have neglected to be transformed and influence this world towards the kingdom of God. They have not forsaken dead works. They accept things at face value. They can't see beyond the facade of this life. They cannot see by faith.

Renting a building is simply a needless expense in most cases if people already have homes. The church is about people and the funds that are available are best utilized to actually help people. On judgment day the Lord won't say...what you did to least of these my sacred buildings you did to Me. ;)

 

[francisdesales]

Picketing is not the work of apostles. It is the work of...protestants! ;) The catholic church has a whole wing that espouses liberation theology. I know you are a liberal. You see social action and the betterment of this life as a top priority.

Wow. I'm a liberal. You got me pegged wrong, buddy.

How about getting back to the topic.

Please show me where Jesus was against organized religion. What did Jesus and the Apostles practice and teach? Can you give me Scriptural warrant for your beliefs that we should center on self???

Jesus and His followers saw not the betterment of this life as a goal, but the entrance into the kingdom as the priority. A cursory reading of the gospels will confirm that.

They are not necessarily contradictory goals...

I'm wondering what Jesus was thinking when He continued to teach His community to feed and clothe the poor, aid the widows and children, and give succor to the helpless - IF we take your mindset of the self. But then it shouldn't be surprising that your brand of spirituality is centered in self. The more I speak with you, the more I learn that you are nowhere near advanced in your spiritual walk...

Nowhere does Jesus condemn organized religion, only those who do not practice it correctly.

 

[Adullam]

Picketing is not the work of apostles. It is the work of...protestants! ;) The catholic church has a whole wing that espouses liberation theology. I know you are a liberal. You see social action and the betterment of this life as a top priority.

Wow. I'm a liberal. You got me pegged wrong, buddy.

How about getting back to the topic.

Please show me where Jesus was against organized religion. What did Jesus and the Apostles practice and teach? Can you give me Scriptural warrant for your beliefs that we should center on self???


You have the weeds of religion tangled in the wheat of a life in Christ. One can walk in Christ without religious trappings. The trappings masquerade as a Christian walk. Religion is based on self. A Christian walk is selfless. One must pay the price of his own life in order to enter into covenant relationship with the King of life. It is those who do not do this who organize around dogmas and ceremonies.

The onus to provide proof rests with those who believe that Jesus came to start another religion. Jesus didn't say anything against car races or ouija boards either. Organized religion killed the saviour of men. It still does to this day.

The proper way to read the bible is with an open heart. One must not have a pre-conceived idea while looking for loopholes in the text. The scribes did that.

Meetings of the church were in private homes. Here is an account of one such meeting...

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

9And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

10And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

11When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

Notice the lack of formality. Christians always met in the evening for supper after the work of the day. People did not sit religiously in rows....but sat pell-mell even in window frames. There was no prescribed length for a meeting....Paul on this occasion continued till the break of day.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1 Cor. 14:26

Notice here that everyone participated in the meetings. This is far removed from the orator or sacred priestly services of the heathen. The priesthood is to all disciples. Each has Christ within them. The meeting brought Christ into the open to be experienced by all. Christ is among they who gather around Him. Those who deny this have not Christ in them.

Jesus and His followers saw not the betterment of this life as a goal, but the entrance into the kingdom as the priority. A cursory reading of the gospels will confirm that.

They are not necessarily contradictory goals...

I'm wondering what Jesus was thinking when He continued to teach His community to feed and clothe the poor, aid the widows and children, and give succor to the helpless - IF we take your mindset of the self. But then it shouldn't be surprising that your brand of spirituality is centered in self. The more I speak with you, the more I learn that you are nowhere near advanced in your spiritual walk...

Nowhere does Jesus condemn organized religion, only those who do not practice it correctly.

When we walk in the Spirit we don't bump into trees. We see through the situations not around them. If we see a need we fill it. But we are not crusaders looking to improve this present world.

The woman who poured expensive perfume on Jesus' head was not condemned by Him. Only the unregenerate saw this as a waste. Our first duty is to Christ. Our first calling is to the kingdom. We are not to neglect our earthly responsibilities. We are to transcend them.

A carnal man sees only the visible things of this world. He only sees with his animal eyes. It is the greatest self-delision to think that by helping others that one is justified before God. The kingdom of self includes the self-justifying helpiong of others. A true Christian doesn't even notice the help he is giving. It is fone selflessly. He will respond...I did? His focus is on Christ in the Spirit not self or selves.

 

[francisdesales]

Please show me where Jesus was against organized religion. What did Jesus and the Apostles practice and teach? Can you give me Scriptural warrant for your beliefs that we should center on self???

You have the weeds of religion tangled in the wheat of a life in Christ. One can walk in Christ without religious trappings....

Typical rant that is again, off topic. The OP of this thread is not whether one can walk in Christ without "religious trappings". The question is whether JESUS WAS AGAINST ORGANIZED RELIGIONS. Can you actually provide some of JESUS' OPINIONS, rather than your own???

What did HE say on the matter???

I ask you, yet again, where does the Sacred Scriptures tell us anything about Jesus' teachings that He was against organized religions??? Please don't tell me what YOU think, I don't care. What does Jesus say on the matter...

Thanks

 

[Drew]

Jesus and His followers saw not the betterment of this life as a goal, but the entrance into the kingdom as the priority. A cursory reading of the gospels will confirm that. If we seek first the kingdom...then God will look after our other problems. That is the truth. Trying to make a difference in the flesh is a goal of humanists. But you have shown that you are a humanist as well. So you will feel happy with this!

I disagree and politely suggest that you misunderstand what "the kingdom" is about. The "kingdom" is not "heaven" - it is the rule of God here on earth. One of the biggest mistakes Christians make is to think that references to the "kingdom of heaven" or "the kingdom of God" are references to a non-earthly heaven where God rules. Not so. Jesus announced that the kingdom of heaven (of God) was breaking into the present lives of those He ministered to.

Jesus' kingdom is for this world, not another. Jesus said the gospel was good news for the poor. That is a statement about life in this present world. Jesus did not come to teach that this present world was bad and that we should escape into an other-worldly kingdom of heaven. Jesus came to begin God's redemptive plan to a climax in this world.

The "kingdom of God" is centrally concerned with the affairs of this present world.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus and His followers saw not the betterment of this life as a goal, but the entrance into the kingdom as the priority. A cursory reading of the gospels will confirm that. If we seek first the kingdom...then God will look after our other problems. That is the truth. Trying to make a difference in the flesh is a goal of humanists. But you have shown that you are a humanist as well. So you will feel happy with this!

I disagree and politely suggest that you misunderstand what "the kingdom" is about. The "kingdom" is not "heaven" - it is the rule of God here on earth. One of the biggest mistakes Christians make is to think that references to the "kingdom of heaven" or "the kingdom of God" are references to a non-earthly heaven where God rules. Not so. Jesus announced that the kingdom of heaven (of God) was breaking into the present lives of those He ministered to.

Jesus' kingdom is for this world, not another. Jesus said the gospel was good news for the poor. That is a statement about life in this present world. Jesus did not come to teach that this present world was bad and that we should escape into an other-worldly kingdom of heaven. Jesus came to begin God's redemptive plan to a climax in this world.

The "kingdom of God" is centrally concerned with the affairs of this present world.

Exactly. Jesus gives us several examples of the "kingdom of heaven", and they certainly do not refer to the "afterlife"...

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field...

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field...

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened...

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field...

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls...

The Kingdom is breaking into this world - Jesus desires we have life, and have it to the fullest, even now.

Regards

 

[shad]

Let us look at the evolution of the church from divine community to organized religion... :halo

We have gone from... power to powerlessness

From faith to mere belief

From testimony to creed

From being the church to attending church

From living among the brethren and meeting daily to a weekly (weakly) service

From being led by the Spirit to being led by men

From overcoming to being overcome

From making disciples to making converts to our creed

From following the whole council of God to selecting certain verses

From serving others to starting profitable ministries

From obscurity to popularity

From doctrine to dogma

From holiness to worldliness

Wow, this is good. I would likt to keep them for my collection if you dont mind.

 

[Adullam]

Let us look at the evolution of the church from divine community to organized religion... :halo

We have gone from... power to powerlessness

From faith to mere belief

From testimony to creed

From being the church to attending church

From living among the brethren and meeting daily to a weekly (weakly) service

From being led by the Spirit to being led by men

From overcoming to being overcome

From making disciples to making converts to our creed

From following the whole council of God to selecting certain verses

From serving others to starting profitable ministries

From obscurity to popularity

From doctrine to dogma

From holiness to worldliness

Wow, this is good. I would likt to keep them for my collection if you dont mind.

Not at all!

 

[Adullam]

Jesus and His followers saw not the betterment of this life as a goal, but the entrance into the kingdom as the priority. A cursory reading of the gospels will confirm that. If we seek first the kingdom...then God will look after our other problems. That is the truth. Trying to make a difference in the flesh is a goal of humanists. But you have shown that you are a humanist as well. So you will feel happy with this!

I disagree and politely suggest that you misunderstand what "the kingdom" is about. The "kingdom" is not "heaven" - it is the rule of God here on earth. One of the biggest mistakes Christians make is to think that references to the "kingdom of heaven" or "the kingdom of God" are references to a non-earthly heaven where God rules. Not so. Jesus announced that the kingdom of heaven (of God) was breaking into the present lives of those He ministered to.

Jesus' kingdom is for this world, not another. Jesus said the gospel was good news for the poor. That is a statement about life in this present world. Jesus did not come to teach that this present world was bad and that we should escape into an other-worldly kingdom of heaven. Jesus came to begin God's redemptive plan to a climax in this world.

The "kingdom of God" is centrally concerned with the affairs of this present world.

Exactly. Jesus gives us several examples of the "kingdom of heaven", and they certainly do not refer to the "afterlife"...

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field...

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field...

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened...

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field...

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls...

The Kingdom is breaking into this world - Jesus desires we have life, and have it to the fullest, even now.

Regards

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

 

[Adullam]

Please show me where Jesus was against organized religion. What did Jesus and the Apostles practice and teach? Can you give me Scriptural warrant for your beliefs that we should center on self???

You have the weeds of religion tangled in the wheat of a life in Christ. One can walk in Christ without religious trappings....

Typical rant that is again, off topic. The OP of this thread is not whether one can walk in Christ without "religious trappings". The question is whether JESUS WAS AGAINST ORGANIZED RELIGIONS. Can you actually provide some of JESUS' OPINIONS, rather than your own???

What did HE say on the matter???

I ask you, yet again, where does the Sacred Scriptures tell us anything about Jesus' teachings that He was against organized religions??? Please don't tell me what YOU think, I don't care. What does Jesus say on the matter...

Thanks

8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. 11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; 12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

 

[shad]

Thanks adullum

 

[Drew]

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

This verse is probably one of the most mis-understood verses in the Bible.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€Â

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

 

[Drew]

One of the biggest errors in 21st western Christianity is this notion that Jesus kingdom announcement is about a realm other than this present world. If we can get this error sorted out, and understand that Jesus is a king for this world, and that "kingdom of God" values are to be brought to bear in this present world, many other problems would be sorted out as well.

Jesus instructs us to pray that "thy kingdom come on earth, as it is in heaven", not "thy kingdom come in heaven as it is in heaven".

Where has Jesus been given authority to reign? In heaven only? Let the scripture speak:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

This text alone should put to rest the notion that Jesus' kingdom has no authority in this present world.

 

[shad]

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Yes, but Jesus reign on earth does not start yet, satan is in charge right now.

.

 

[Drew]

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Yes, but Jesus reign on earth does not start yet, satan is in charge right now.

.

That is not what the Bible says. What does the very text I have posted say? It says that Jesus has (past tense) been given all authority on earth - that means He is King right now. I know that the position you assert here is widely held. However, I think the scriptural evidence works against it. What texts do you have to support your idea that Satan is the ruler of this present world?

 

[Adullam]

One of the biggest errors in 21st western Christianity is this notion that Jesus kingdom announcement is about a realm other than this present world. If we can get this error sorted out, and understand that Jesus is a king for this world, and that "kingdom of God" values are to be brought to bear in this present world, many other problems would be sorted out as well.

Jesus instructs us to pray that "thy kingdom come on earth, as it is in heaven", not "thy kingdom come in heaven as it is in heaven".

Where has Jesus been given authority to reign? In heaven only? Let the scripture speak:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

This text alone should put to rest the notion that Jesus' kingdom has no authority in this present world.

I am well acquainted with the triumphalist doctrine. There is a preterist bent to it. Thy kingdom come is still in the future. We only have the firstfruits at this present time for those who surrender to the Lordship of Christ.

 

[shad]

That is not what the Bible says. What does the very text I have posted say? It says that Jesus has (past tense) been given all authority on earth - that means He is King right now. I know that the position you assert here is widely held. However, I think the scriptural evidence works against it. What texts do you have to support your idea that Satan is the ruler of this present world?

John 14:30 (New International Version)
30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,

Besides, if Jesus is in charge of this world right now, there is no wars, hatred, tears, diseases and all kinds of grievances. Jesus is prince of peace.

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