Was Jesus against organized religion?

[shad]

Ok, suit yourself. It seems to me you are just talking the talk just like most posters in the forums.

You know this is not a fair assessment. I have provided detailed arguments - addressing specific texts - Daniel 7, Psalm 2, Act 4.

What is your response? Do you explain how my take on these texts is incorrect? No you do not. Instead we get statements like this:

I read the Bible to live and make sure it goes along with what the Bible says. Christianity is a way of life, not just for debate and studying. The prophesy should be reasonable with the reality too

Please be fair - the record speaks for itself. I have presented numerous arguments that are understandable and appeal directly to the scriptures.

I am making clear arguments. So if I am wrong, why are you incapable of pointing out the errors in those arguments?

I was hoping to get your attention to different perspectives. I guess I hoped wrong.
I only showed you how illogical your argument is. If you don't think it is illogical by now, I am done with you.

take care.

.

 

[Drew]

I only showed you how illogical your argument is....

What specific post? Where have you shown that anything I have posted is illogical. If what you claim is true, you should be able to say "Here in post xxx, I (shad) showed you (drew) that your argument is illogical." So please, tell us all, which posts of yours have shown any of my arguments to be illogical.

I have numerous arguments which you have simply ignored. The only thing you have challenged me with is the "prince of peace" issue. I have told you that I am thinking about it.

How about addressing any of the arguments I have made.

 

[francisdesales]

I only showed you how illogical your argument is....

What specific post? Where have you shown that anything I have posted is illogical. If what you claim is true, you should be able to say "Here in post xxx, I (shad) showed you (drew) that your argument is illogical." So please, tell us all, which posts of yours have shown any of my arguments to be illogical.

I have numerous arguments which you have simply ignored. The only thing you have challenged me with is the "prince of peace" issue. I have told you that I am thinking about it.

How about addressing any of the arguments I have made.

Drew,

I have found that Shad is quite adept at ignoring posts and re-inventing them. Don't expect him to actually provide you with a quote of yours. That's not how "he" operates. He just states cliches and in his self-righteous huff, leaves the conversation when called to provide evidence.

 

[Adullam]

Why did Paul count all things as dung that he might win Christ?

Which of the former things are kept when all things have been made new? What are we to scavenge?

I do not think you want to make this argument. It appears you are arguing thus:

1. All things are made new, old things are done away with;
2. Organized worship (i.e. the temple, etc) is an "old thing".
3. Therefore, organized worship is done away with.

Let's see where such a way of thinking leads:

1. All things are made new, old things are done away with;
2. The idea that God works in the affairs of man is an "old thing" (the old testament is full of this).
3. Therefore, God has stopped working in the affairs of man.

1. All things are made new, old things are done away with;
2. The Torah is an old thing.
3. Therefore, since the Torah is inseperable from the principles of loving God and neighbour (Jesus tells us this in Matthew 22), these principles are "old things" as well.
4. Therefore, we are not to love to God and neighbour anymore.

I trust no further examples are needed.

Need I say that this is faulty reasoning? Your lack of understanding reflects back on yourself. A new and living way is just that. How do you see Paul's statement?

"...Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new..."

And Jesus's statement?...

And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, “The old is good.â€Â

 

[Adullam]

“Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told, Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right†Tarek Fatah

And, of course, this massively begs the question at issue by simply presuming that any and all practices and ideas that spring from organized religion are simply wrong.

“f we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

You cannot be serious. I could wear out my keypad providing Biblical evidence against such an assertion. Here are just 2 texts:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Is a governing authority a system of the world? Obviously yes - everyone knows Paul is talking about wordly governments. Are they rejected by God? No. They are established by God.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

You are telling us that God has rejected "things on earth". Paul tells us the opposite - that through Christ, the things of the world are being reconciled.

Do you want more examples?

Christians are being reconciled to God. We have the ministry of reconciliation. But satan is not being reconciled. He has not yet been confined to the dungeons for the millenial rule. He is still as free as we let him be. Ignorance to this fact is in favour of the enemy strategy. What is prompting you to obfuscate the truth?

As Revelation teaches the devil will become more agressive as time goes on and make open war with the saints. He will overcome them and rule openly for a short time. This will bring about the return of Christ and the devil will be locked away for a thousand years.

Now unless you live in a fantasy world, you must realize that we are not living in a time where Jesus is reigning with saints (in glorified bodies) from Jerusalem. This means that the devil's time has not yet been completed. God is testing those of us in our resistance to the enemy. We can still be enemies of the cross by following the devil and his ways. We are being watched. You are failing here in that you are preaching peace in the outer world. You have no idea of reality either spiritual or temporal if you don't see that. Can you not read Revelation for yourself? Must I post the whole book here?

 

[stovebolts]

Christians are being reconciled to God. We have the ministry of reconciliation. But satan is not being reconciled. He has not yet been confined to the dungeons for the millenial rule. He is still as free as we let him be. Ignorance to this fact is in favour of the enemy strategy. What is prompting you to obfuscate the truth?

I'm pretty sure that Paul was talking about the earth as well as Christians....

Romans 8:18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the glory that will be revealed to us. 8:19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility – not willingly but because of God who subjected it – in hope 8:21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.

This is in part, what is being reconciled within the "All things" mentioned in the earlier passage; not just the Chrisians as you have stated above.... We are moving toward something much more glorious than the Garden.

 

[Adullam]

Christians are being reconciled to God. We have the ministry of reconciliation. But satan is not being reconciled. He has not yet been confined to the dungeons for the millenial rule. He is still as free as we let him be. Ignorance to this fact is in favour of the enemy strategy. What is prompting you to obfuscate the truth?

I'm pretty sure that Paul was talking about the earth as well as Christians....

Romans 8:18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the glory that will be revealed to us. 8:19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility – not willingly but because of God who subjected it – in hope 8:21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.

This is in part, what is being reconciled within the "All things" mentioned in the earlier passage; not just the Chrisians as you have stated above.... We are moving toward something much more glorious than the Garden.

But we must not get ahead of ourselves. Temperance is required in all things as well. If a highway has been approved and is under construction I may still lose my life trying to drive on an unfinished onramp. A cake that is finished must also be fully baked in the oven. So it is with spiritual reality. We are born from above but have not yet reached maturity. We will make many mistakes before we learn deeply enough to rely only on God.

It is very dangerous to assume that the enemy has been rendered harmless through Christ's victory at the cross. Jesus accomplished His sacrifice....that part is finished. But until the curse is completely swallowed up in victory in time and temporal reality, it can become a fool's paradise. Those who realize the danger can still rule over the enemy, but one must be very careful. One who stands should be careful lest he falls. That advice is still pertinant for us today. If the victory were completely consumated...all sin would be completely unheard of. That time is coming swiftly....but is not here yet.

 

[stovebolts]

My response was in addition to Drew's response to your below statement.

“f we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

God has not rejected the world nor it's systems... That was my point, as I believe was Drew's as well.

Point in case, an ideology can form into a system... such as how to view religion which in turn feeds and affirms the ideology as it plays out in ones daily life.

 

[Adullam]

My response was in addition to Drew's response to your below statement.

“f we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

God has not rejected the world nor it's systems... That was my point, as I believe was Drew's as well.

Point in case, an ideology can form into a system... such as how to view religion which in turn feeds and affirms the ideology as it plays out in ones daily life.

Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Love not the world nor the things of the world...if one does God's love is not in him.

Holiness means coming out of the world and her systems. Come out and be separate and I will receive you, says the Lord. We are to follow the Spirit and the word of God...and rely only on Him. We cannot add nor subtract from the word and remain in good standing with the Lord. God wants us to be radically different from the world...persecutable....citizens of another world.


Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 2 Cor. 6:17

 

[stovebolts]

Adullum,
I think this was the first verse I ever memorised...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

You see Adullum, while we were still enemies, Christ died for us.

My point remains, God has not rejected the world...

Grace and Peace,
Jeff

 

[Adullam]

Adullum,
I think this was the first verse I ever memorised...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover believeth on him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

You see Adullum, while we were still enemies, Christ died for us.

Grace and Peace,
Jeff

Amen! But the world rejects Christ. They don't recognize Him. Neither will they recognize us as we stand in Him. The world is a hostile environment. All who live Godly will suffer persecution.

<><

John

 

[stovebolts]

if we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

Then you concede, or would you like to rephrase the above statment?

Amen! But the world rejects Christ.

 

[Drew]

Need I say that this is faulty reasoning? Your lack of understanding reflects back on yourself.

I see no error in my reasoning. You argue that since "old things" are done away with, worship organized around "institutions" has been done away with. I simply showed how such reasoning fails - from the examples I have provided, it is clear that not everything "pre-Jesus" was done away with.

A new and living way is just that. How do you see Paul's statement?

"...Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new..."

And Jesus's statement?...

And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, “The old is good.â€Â

This is the same overly generalized reasoning as you have already given. You are arguing:

1. Organized religion is an old thing;
2. All things are made new and the old is discarded;
3. Therefore, organized religion is discarded.

That is demonstrably false. Since people ate food before the time of Jesus, is eating a practice that is to be done away and replaced with something new?

The fact that human beings are renewed, and even that all creation is renewed, through the cross does not logically imply the abolition of organized religion.

 

[Drew]

Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Love not the world nor the things of the world...if one does God's love is not in him.

No one is saying that we should love the things of the world, but as the two texts I have given prove, God has not rejected the world and its structures - as Colossians (and other texts) say, a process of redemption has begun in respect to them. I am sorry, but these texts really are quite clear - God has not "rejected" the world and its systems, He is reclaiming them. You are arguing a different point. No one, least of all me, is saying that we should buy into the fallenness of the world. But God is indeed redeeming it. He created it and said "it was very good". Adam screwed things up, but now God is undoing the Adamic damage.

 

[Drew]

Christians are being reconciled to God. We have the ministry of reconciliation. But satan is not being reconciled. He has not yet been confined to the dungeons for the millenial rule. He is still as free as we let him be. Ignorance to this fact is in favour of the enemy strategy. What is prompting you to obfuscate the truth?

Christians are not the only things being reconciled to God - the entire creation is. You are not in tune with the Scriptures if you believe that Satan has not been substantially defeated - he is not entirely defeated but, as the texts that I have already provided show, he was defeated on the cross. The battle against Satan has been substantially been won by Jesus on the cross. I am not saying that Satan is entirely powerless now, but we live in the "mopping up" time, with the essential defeat of Satan having been achieved on the cross.

As Revelation teaches the devil will become more agressive as time goes on and make open war with the saints. He will overcome them and rule openly for a short time. This will bring about the return of Christ and the devil will be locked away for a thousand years.

I disagree with this interpretation of the book of Revelation, but to get into this would be a lot of work. Let's be clear, neither I nor nor you can simply claim an interpretation as correct. So both of us would have work to do to continue the debate about Revelation.

 

[Drew]

Now unless you live in a fantasy world, you must realize that we are not living in a time where Jesus is reigning with saints (in glorified bodies) from Jerusalem. This means that the devil's time has not yet been completed. God is testing those of us in our resistance to the enemy. We can still be enemies of the cross by following the devil and his ways. We are being watched. You are failing here in that you are preaching peace in the outer world. You have no idea of reality either spiritual or temporal if you don't see that. Can you not read Revelation for yourself? Must I post the whole book here?

Please feel free to actually make arguments, and not just state a position.

I have already posted multiple arguments that show that Jesus is a presently reigning King. We do not, of course, yet have glorified bodies, but the Bible does not teach that Jesus cannot reign till we do.

I have provided an argument from Acts 4 and Psalm 2. What is your response?

I have provided an argument from Mark 14 and Daniel 7. You tried to argue that the "reign" was not over the temporal world, I then showed that it was. What is your response?

I will provide other arguments shortly as to why we should understand that Jesus presently reigns.

 

[Drew]

Despite widespread belief in the Church to the contrary, Paul sees Jesus as a reigning king whose governance has already been established. One of the many strands of argument for “kingdom now†(as some would term my position on this issue) is bound up in Paul’s use of the word “gospelâ€Â. More precisely, as will be shown below, Paul uses the term “gospel†with clear intent to show that Old Testament expectations of a governing King have been fulfilled in the resurrection of Jesus. In short, Paul would stand against those who think that Jesus’ reign over the temporal order only “really†starts at his second coming.

First, the Old Testament expectation. Consider this text from Isaiah 52:

How lovely on the mountains
Are the feet of him who brings good news,
Who announces peace
And brings good news of happiness,
Who announces salvation,
And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

Two things are worthy of note. First, the phrase “good news†is rendered in the Septuagint greek as “evangelion†– the very same greek word that, as we shall see, Paul uses in connection with Jesus in the New Testament. Even without further analysis, the point should be clear: there is a compelling case that Paul sees Jesus as precisely this reigning King described in Isaiah 52 (if not elsewhere).

Now we dig down deeper into the concept of a God that “reignsâ€Â. According to the NET Bible notes (and I believe this is reputable information), the word “reigns†means:

“has become Kingâ€Â. When a new king was enthroned, his followers would give this shout ( i.e. “our king reigns!â€Â)

Paul, a highly learned Pharisee would know the “governing king†implications of the phrase “our God reignsâ€Â. The same word translated here in Isaiah 52:7 as “reigns†is used in these other texts:

2 Samuel 15:10:

But Absalom sent spies throughout all the tribes of Israel, saying, "As soon as you hear the sound of the trumpet, then you shall say, Absalom is king in Hebron."

1 Kings 1:11:

Then Nathan spoke to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon, saying, "Have you not heard that Adonijah the son of Haggith has become king, and David our lord does not know it?

1 Kings 1:13:

"Go at once to King David and say to him, ?Have you not, my lord, O king, sworn to your maidservant, saying, "Surely Solomon your son shall be king after me, and he shall sit on my throne" Why then has Adonijah become king?

1 Kings 1:18:

"Now, behold, Adonijah is king; and now, my lord the king, you do not know it.

2 Kings 9:13:

Then they hurried and each man took his garment and placed it under him on the bare steps, and blew the trumpet, saying, "Jehu is king!"

The point is this: the term “reigns†as in “our God reigns†has clear Biblical precedent suggesting the actual rule of a governing King.

The final element of the argument is to show that Paul clearly connects this “reigning and governing king†status with the resurrected Jesus. And he does precisely this in this text from Romans 10 which clearly references Isaiah 52:7:

14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him (T)whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!â€Â

And, of course, the greek word rendered as “good news†is, again, “evangelionâ€Â. What is Paul doing? He is obviously sending the reader back to the Old Testament Messianic expectation of a reigning king. So while many, perhaps most, people miss this, we should not. Paul is clearly identifying Jesus as the reigning king foretold in Isaiah 52:7.

It is critical to understand the matrix of thinking in which Paul moved. It was a world charged with Messianic expectation of a king that would appear to rule, not to abandon governance to a secular model. So when Paul makes these Old Testament allusions, we should take the hint. Jesus has already been enthroned and is a reigning King.

 

[Adullam]

Need I say that this is faulty reasoning? Your lack of understanding reflects back on yourself.

I see no error in my reasoning. You argue that since "old things" are done away with, worship organized around "institutions" has been done away with. I simply showed how such reasoning fails - from the examples I have provided, it is clear that not everything "pre-Jesus" was done away with.

The temporal means are done away with. We worship now in newness of life. This life burst onto the scene in Acts 2. We see a radical reparture here from the established order. Divine life has come. We now put aside the training wheels of earthly means and look to God for the new and living way.

A new and living way is just that. How do you see Paul's statement?

"...Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new..."

And Jesus's statement?...

And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, “The old is good.â€Â

This is the same overly generalized reasoning as you have already given. You are arguing:

1. Organized religion is an old thing;
2. All things are made new and the old is discarded;
3. Therefore, organized religion is discarded.

That is demonstrably false. Since people ate food before the time of Jesus, is eating a practice that is to be done away and replaced with something new?

The fact that human beings are renewed, and even that all creation is renewed, through the cross does not logically imply the abolition of organized religion.

Spiritual things are indeed foolishness to the carnal man. I have already stated that the temporal order has not yet changed. We still have the enemy to contend with. We no longer follow God through the temporal means. This is forever changed. God does not reside in buildings made with hands. You defeat your own argument here by questioning the bible. In your scheme nothing has changed on the one hand...but the enemy is still defeated! Backward reasoning. One cannot be both allied to worldly systems and the heavenly order. The combination of both is syncretism. A combination of the precious with the vile.

 

[Adullam]

Religion sacrilizes the world and the things of this world....whether they be sacred cows, sacred buildings, sacred vestments, sacred rituals etc... However Jesus came to desacrilize the world. Those who follow Him in the new way are made holy. These are the new temple of God in the temporal world. We have direct access to God in the way of Christ with the new divine birth in the Spirit. So Christianity is not just another religious choice for men to make or take....Christianity is an anti-religion. It is from heaven, not men. It is astounding that believers would not see this. Religion cannot save man. Only relationship with God can. :yes

 

[Drew]

The temporal means are done away with.

You can say this till the cows come home but (1) you have provided no scripture to support; and (2) unrefutted scriptural arguments are on the table that show that God is redeeming the temporal world and has not rejected it.

Spiritual things are indeed foolishness to the carnal man.

I suggest that the Biblical evidence suggests that the person who is misunderstanding the scriptures is not the one you are suggesting it is.

I have already stated that the temporal order has not yet changed.

You just said the opposite (above). To repeat:

The temporal means are done away with.

We still have the enemy to contend with.

Agree.

We no longer follow God through the temporal means. This is forever changed.

The scriptural case, at least as presented in this thread thus far, weighs strongly against the idea that God has rejected the structures of this world. They are fallen, and he is redeeming them, not rejecting them. This has already been made clear through Colossians 1. Of course, you have not engaged that text. And it is easy to see why - it cannot be read any other way than asserting that God, in Jesus, is redeeming the "temporal order". And that undermines your entire argument.

Same thing with Romans 13 – that text clearly states that God establishes human governments. So, to be frank, it seems that you have no choice but to hope that other readers did not see that text, since it clearly shows your position to be incorrect.