Was Jesus Really the Christ?

[gr8grace]

The fact that I could find good support for my Christian position as this thread asked for was a tipping point for me in my eventual loss of faith. I searched and I was hoping that others had searched and found answers that could stand against those that did not believe in Jesus as the Christ, yet I was left wanting. Because I couldn't give solid scriptural answers I was force by way of honesty to admit and accept that I could do what Jude and Peter had recommended the Christian do in defending their faith and the reasons behind it.

We can go Any way we want, but go on the offence with this one. Have them prove all these wrong instead of letting them take your focus to prophecies that have YET to be fulfilled.


Born of a Virgin


A Jew can't even call Jesus a Good teacher if He was lying about being the truth the Way and the Life. Think about it, it would be the most scandalous and malicious lie told in the History of mankind.

Here is a good discussion on the "Virgin Birth" matter from right here on ChristianForums.net:

. . .

I don't think that I ever posted there(except for technical issues) because I was afraid to find out the truth about my username. I'm okay with the truth now.

I could be wrong, but I bet I aint.

This thread is not for searching out the truth. it is here to attack Christianity and its principles, Not outright and in your face but a subtle nice Way. I see tradition being promoted and the truth being suppressed.

Like I said I could be wrong. But I put my wager on I am right.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I see tradition being promoted and the truth being suppressed.

It's very telling when another poster posts something, and a certain poster complains about the post "suppressing the truth", without giving any counter attack. If the truth is on your side, you should easily be able to debunk anything that contradicts your "truth". You should not fear the post. Only suppressed and beaten-into-submission cult members have reason to fear information that teaches against their indoctrinated beliefs.

 

[Deborah13]

The fact that I could NOT find good support for my Christian position as this thread asked for was a tipping point for me in my eventual loss of faith. I searched and I was hoping that others had searched and found answers that could stand against those that did not believe in Jesus as the Christ, yet I was left wanting. Because I couldn't give solid scriptural answers I was force by way of honesty to admit and accept that I could do what Jude and Peter had recommended the Christian do in defending their faith and the reasons behind it.

I looked at the 26Reasons site. Unfortunately they don't give scripture reference for the NT, so it takes awhile to find some of what they are referring to. But here's just one. They quote from Malachi 4:4-6, I would answer from Luke 1:17. But they dispute from Matthew and John.
Jesus said Elias had come, John the Baptist said he wasn't Elias. That is their dispute.
John 1 KJV
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

They thought that when Malachi gave the prophecy, he meant Elijah would appear in the flesh. John said, he was not and then answered with scripture that Elijah proclaimed. He came with the same spirit as Elijah with the message of Elijah. (Isaiah 40:3)

I think it can be looking at prophecy as an absolute in a physical way and not realizing that it is not always what it appears to be, it can be realized in the spiritual.
It's like me not believing in a pretrib rapture. I could be wrong, fortunately for me it's not a salvation issue. However, for those who do not recognize Jesus I believe, is a salvation issue.

They say, Jesus is disqualified from being the Messiah because His father (He said) was God, therefore He was not from the tribe of Judah.
You see they thought the Messiah was to be a mere man.

You might pick a couple of things you would like others to address rather than several. I look again at your first list but I'm not the versed myself.

 

[Free]

The fact that I could NOT find good support for my Christian position as this thread asked for was a tipping point for me in my eventual loss of faith. I searched and I was hoping that others had searched and found answers that could stand against those that did not believe in Jesus as the Christ, yet I was left wanting. Because I couldn't give solid scriptural answers I was force by way of honesty to admit and accept that I could do what Jude and Peter had recommended the Christian do in defending their faith and the reasons behind it.

Really? There is plenty of support for Jesus being the Messiah.

 

[gr8grace]

I see tradition being promoted and the truth being suppressed.

It's very telling when another poster posts something, and a certain poster complains about the post "suppressing the truth", without giving any counter attack. If the truth is on your side, you should easily be able to debunk anything that contradicts your "truth". You should not fear the post. Only suppressed and beaten-into-submission cult members have reason to fear information that teaches against their indoctrinated beliefs.

Like I said I could be wrong, That means I will wait and see also. But I bet I am right.

Post 18 gives a LOT. not one of them debunked yet, just speculation and denials.

Post 18 gives a lot of debunking material(for the OP) and a lot of material to contend for our faith compared to the stuff that was brought up in the OP.

If the virgin birth is wrong and a lie, that means all of the NT is under consideration for being a lie. And Christs credibility under scrutiny.

"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins "-- then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home." Matt 9:6

"But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"-- He said to the paralytic-- "I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home." Luke 5:24

bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Col 3:13

Jesus was either of three things with these statements:

1. He was a liar from the pit of Hell.

2. He was a deranged lunatic.

3. He was/is Lord and Savior. He IS Lord and Savior.

WAS CHRIST LYING TO US?

 

[Sinthesis]

The fact that I could NOT find good support for my Christian position as this thread asked for was a tipping point for me in my eventual loss of faith. I searched and I was hoping that others had searched and found answers that could stand against those that did not believe in Jesus as the Christ, yet I was left wanting. Because I couldn't give solid scriptural answers I was force by way of honesty to admit and accept that I could do what Jude and Peter had recommended the Christian do in defending their faith and the reasons behind it.

I'm sure there are answers to any concern you might have, but I'm not interested in speculating as to what particular problems you see.

Perhaps you could illustrate one particular problem in detail, including any arguments from other faiths as to why exactly Jesus fails to fulfill a specific messianic prophecy.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We can go Any way we want, but go on the offence with this one. Have them prove all these wrong instead of letting them take your focus to prophecies that have YET to be fulfilled.

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

The Psalms 2:7 passage is about Israel, the Son of God, not any individual they say. Nowhere in the prophets is the Messiah said to be God's Son or that he would be born of a maiden as indicated in Isaiah 7:14 which is yet another passage they claim has nothing to do with Jesus as it was fulfilled centuries before Jesus' birth having to do with what would transpire with ancient Assyria. These are the arguments put worth that are applied to most of the NT claims of Messianic prophecy.

 

[Free]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Well, that goes without saying, doesn't it? If they did believe the prophecies were about Jesus and that the NT was inspired, then they would be Christians or Messianic Jews. It is fallacious to argue that because Jews don't understand a passage in a certain way that agrees with the NT or Christian beliefs that therefore Christians and the NT are wrong. Jews could very well be wrong about what they believe the OT to be stating. And in at least some things, they don't agree amongst themselves.

The Psalms 2:7 passage is about Israel, the Son of God, not any individual they say. Nowhere in the prophets is the Messiah said to be God's Son

This is begging the question. Just because this passage may be about Israel primarily does not mean that it cannot also be speaking about the Messiah.

or that he would be born of a maiden as indicated in Isaiah 7:14 which is yet another passage they claim has nothing to do with Jesus as it was fulfilled centuries before Jesus' birth having to do with what would transpire with ancient Assyria. These are the arguments put worth that are applied to most of the NT claims of Messianic prophecy.

Same as above.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well, that goes without saying, doesn't it? If they did believe the prophecies were about Jesus and that the NT was inspired, then they would be Christians or Messianic Jews.

Your point is well taken Free. But for me, I could not bring to the argument my conviction that the NT was inspired and expect to have a foot to stand on. The burden of proof was on me to show that the NT was inspired before it could be used a evidence to back my beliefs about Jesus. My challenge was to use the accepted OT Messianic prophecies and show that Jesus fulfilled them all the while being able to scripturally and logically rebutt their reasons for why Jesus did not. That challenge was a challenge I struggled to effectively complete as I was able to dispute few but not all of their stances.

This is begging the question. Just because this passage may be about Israel primarily does not mean that it cannot also be speaking about the Messiah.

As stated above, the burden of proof is on the believes to prove that a passage is in fact Messianic by using the context of the Hebrew (OT) scriptures.

 

[Deborah13]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Truth, I found this interesting site page. I haven't read the whole thing myself but this article address some questions of prophecies and the problems Jews have in believing Jesus was the Messiah.
A Jew asks the question and the response looks at the prophecies that are their main problems and what is said about them in the Jewish writings themselves, such as Midrash Konen and others.

This is the personal site, of Glenn Miller. The man is an over 40 yr. Christian, BS and MS in Computer Science and BA and ThM in theology.

Hope you can find some answers here. http://christianthinktank.com/falsechrist.html
http://christianthinktank.com/christn.html (What is a Christian?)

This site is going in my favorites.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Truth, I found this interesting site page. I haven't read the whole thing myself but this article address some questions of prophecies and the problems Jews have in believing Jesus was the Messiah.
A Jew asks the question and the response looks at the prophecies that are their main problems and what is said about them in the Jewish writings themselves, such as Midrash Konen and others.

This is the personal site, of Glenn Miller. The man is an over 40 yr. Christian, BS and MS in Computer Science and BA and ThM in theology.

Hope you can find some answers here. http://christianthinktank.com/falsechrist.html
http://christianthinktank.com/christn.html (What is a Christian?)

This site is going in my favorites.

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

We are not smarter than the ancient people. We just have more knowledge. Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. Even if the Pythagorean theorem wasn't made up by a guy named Pythagoras, the concept was definitely developed by an ancient person. Even if someone like Pythagoras made up stories about a man fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and the prophecy fulfillments were perfect down to every last detail, we shouldn't assume that the stories are true.

Stories like these are suspect right out of the gate, and rightfully so. Now, when you encounter mistakes by New Testament writers, the stories become even more suspect than they were to begin with.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Truth, I found this interesting site page. I haven't read the whole thing myself but this article address some questions of prophecies and the problems Jews have in believing Jesus was the Messiah.
A Jew asks the question and the response looks at the prophecies that are their main problems and what is said about them in the Jewish writings themselves, such as Midrash Konen and others.

This is the personal site, of Glenn Miller. The man is an over 40 yr. Christian, BS and MS in Computer Science and BA and ThM in theology.

Hope you can find some answers here. http://christianthinktank.com/falsechrist.html
http://christianthinktank.com/christn.html (What is a Christian?)

This site is going in my favorites.

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

We are not smarter than the ancient people. We just have more knowledge. Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. Even if the Pythagorean theorem wasn't made up by a guy named Pythagoras, the concept was definitely developed by an ancient person. Even if someone like Pythagoras made up stories about a man fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and the prophecy fulfillments were perfect down to every last detail, we shouldn't assume that the stories are true.

Stories like these are suspect right out of the gate, and rightfully so. Now, when you encounter mistakes by New Testament writers, the stories become even more suspect than they were to begin with.

The christianthinktank.com listings remind me of a site a found a couple years back that I tried to use to help me back my old position that Jesus was the Messiah of prophecy. http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/Christ_of_Prophecy.html#c9

 

[WIP]

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

For what purpose? Why do you suppose they might go through all that work to support a lie?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

For what purpose? Why do you suppose they might go through all that work to support a lie?

That's a good question.

One thing that I can think of is they were trying to add credibility to the story to unite their fellow Jews in a good, modern, and more civilized message. First, they write a story about Jesus and various events in His life. Then, they have Jesus fulfilling Old Testament prophecies to add credibility. Then, they have Jesus say things throughout the story that they actually wanted to say and wanted people to abide by, much of what they wrote being actual good advice. Their fellow Jews could then unite, live in a way that is more fair to everybody involved, and have hope.

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

You asked a good question, though. I think I'm going to look up "possible motives for New Testament writers".

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

For what purpose? Why do you suppose they might go through all that work to support a lie?

That's a good question.

One thing that I can think of is they were trying to add credibility to the story to unite their fellow Jews in a good, modern, and more civilized message. First, they write a story about Jesus and various events in His life. Then, they have Jesus fulfilling Old Testament prophecies to add credibility. Then, they have Jesus say things throughout the story that they actually wanted to say and wanted people to abide by, much of what they wrote being actual good advice. Their fellow Jews could then unite, live in a way that is more fair to everybody involved, and have hope.

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

You asked a good question, though. I think I'm going to look up "possible motives for New Testament writers".

I think the writer of Luke gives a pretty direct answer as to why the gospels were written when he said the following in Luke 1:1-5:

Since many others have already taken on the job of putting together a statement of the facts of the things we believe as they were given to us by those who were eyewitnesses from the earliest [times] and by caretakers of the message, it seemed good for me to trace everything accurately from the start, then write it down for you in the order that it happened, mighty TheoPhilus, so you can feel confident about the things you've been taught by word of mouth.

Luke never claimed inspiration for any of his writings in either Luke or Acts as far as I am aware of. We know by his words that Luke was not an eyewitness to the things of which he wrote as he got his info from those he believed to be eyewitnesses. From his own words Luke tells the reader that he was writing to strengthen and support the basis of his reader's faith.

 

[Deborah13]

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

How about this one. They were just a masochistic cult, that set themselves up to be stoned, crucified, beheaded, burned at the stake, thrown off building, etc.

Or this one. They were 1st century hippies, that wanted to travel the world and live off other people during their travels.

I know we shouldn't be sarcastic but really........

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

For what purpose? Why do you suppose they might go through all that work to support a lie?

That's a good question.

One thing that I can think of is they were trying to add credibility to the story to unite their fellow Jews in a good, modern, and more civilized message. First, they write a story about Jesus and various events in His life. Then, they have Jesus fulfilling Old Testament prophecies to add credibility. Then, they have Jesus say things throughout the story that they actually wanted to say and wanted people to abide by, much of what they wrote being actual good advice. Their fellow Jews could then unite, live in a way that is more fair to everybody involved, and have hope.

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

You asked a good question, though. I think I'm going to look up "possible motives for New Testament writers".

I think the writer of Luke gives a pretty direct answer as to why the gospels were written when he said the following in Luke 1:1-5:

Since many others have already taken on the job of putting together a statement of the facts of the things we believe as they were given to us by those who were eyewitnesses from the earliest [times] and by caretakers of the message, it seemed good for me to trace everything accurately from the start, then write it down for you in the order that it happened, mighty TheoPhilus, so you can feel confident about the things you've been taught by word of mouth.

Luke never claimed inspiration for any of his writings in either Luke or Acts as far as I am aware of. We know by his words that Luke was not an eyewitness to the things of which he wrote as he got his info from those he believed to be eyewitnesses. From his own words Luke tells the reader that he was writing to strengthen and support the basis of his reader's faith.

You're absolutely right . . . as far as Luke's motivation being that he wanted the most complete, chronologically-sound story of the events surrounding Jesus. He wanted to combine all the sources that he had at his disposal-- the Gospel of Mark being one of those sources-- into one continuous account.

But, WIP's question is digging deeper than that. WIP is asking, "If you think that some of the claims of events were deliberately fabricated, what motive did the fabricators have for fabricating such stories?"

Maybe Luke is simply "relaying the message" without performing any fabrication of his own.

Why would Mark, or whoever told Mark, fabricate such stories?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

How about this one. They were just a masochistic cult, that set themselves up to be stoned, crucified, beheaded, burned at the stake, thrown off building, etc.

Hey! Why not?! There have already been well-documented accounts of people willing to crash commercial airplanes into buildings or people willing to engage in a deadly shootout with the ATF in Waco, Texas for a cause they strongly believed in-- even if their cause seemed meaningless or downright horrid to others.

Or this one. They were 1st century hippies, that wanted to travel the world and live off other people during their travels.

Yeah, that seems very realistic. Good one. They bring good news and hope, and in turn, they are treated well by others.

I know we shouldn't be sarcastic but really........

Sarcastic? Those were excellent points!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Maybe Luke is simply "relaying the message" without performing any fabrication of his own.

Exactly the point. One can be telling what they really believe to be true and be mistaken. There's no need to assume that one thinks a writer is a liar, as the writer could simply have received his data from sources that were not based in fact.

 

[gr8grace]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Truth, I found this interesting site page. I haven't read the whole thing myself but this article address some questions of prophecies and the problems Jews have in believing Jesus was the Messiah.
A Jew asks the question and the response looks at the prophecies that are their main problems and what is said about them in the Jewish writings themselves, such as Midrash Konen and others.

This is the personal site, of Glenn Miller. The man is an over 40 yr. Christian, BS and MS in Computer Science and BA and ThM in theology.

Hope you can find some answers here. http://christianthinktank.com/falsechrist.html
http://christianthinktank.com/christn.html (What is a Christian?)

This site is going in my favorites.

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

We are not smarter than the ancient people. We just have more knowledge. Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. Even if the Pythagorean theorem wasn't made up by a guy named Pythagoras, the concept was definitely developed by an ancient person. Even if someone like Pythagoras made up stories about a man fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and the prophecy fulfillments were perfect down to every last detail, we shouldn't assume that the stories are true.

Stories like these are suspect right out of the gate, and rightfully so. Now, when you encounter mistakes by New Testament writers, the stories become even more suspect than they were to begin with.

If the new Testament writers just made their stories fit the OT Prophecies, they would have had to lie about an insurmountable number of people involved in all those prophecies. And those lies would have come out in the open.
First of all, never forget faith. It is going to take a certain amount of faith on ALL of our parts to believe.

To make those prophecies up, they would of had to lie about some of the most powerful and prideful men in History. The roman soldiers,Herod,Pilate....these people played a direct role in some of those Prophecies. They would have called the writers out and KILLED them if they were making up stories about them. think about it, if they were just making this stuff up, they would not of had a days rest from all the people knocking on their doors for lying about them. These Prophecies directly and indirectly involved 100s of people. they wouldn't of Gotten away with writing these "stories" if they were not true.

Back to faith though, you seem to state matter of factly that," Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. " How much evidence do you have that he was a Genius? How many books or writings from antiquity do you have to make such a bold statement. For every fact from history that you have faith in, how much evidence do you require to believe it?

Do you believe Caesar existed and what we have in the history books about his role through his reign? For every fact that we have from Caesars reign, we have evidence from other sources and writings from antiquity to back up what we write about Caesar. For every piece of evidence that you can find about Caesar, we can find 100s,sometimes 1000s about Jesus.Just from outside sources that indirectly mention this person Jesus.Lots come from secular sources.

They put Caesar in our History books from the evidence they have found throughout History. Very few people question the truthfulness of what scholars say and write about Caesar. Because they have evidence about him and his life.

This is the evidence we have about Caesar......[...]

This is the evidence we have about Christ........[.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................]

And that is just books of antiquity and writings of antiquity. Thats not counting recent and past archaeological finds that prove the historical accuracy of the OT/NT Also.