Was Jesus Really the Christ?

[VirginShallConceive]

Maybe Luke is simply "relaying the message" without performing any fabrication of his own.

Exactly the point. One can be telling what they really believe to be true and be mistaken. There's no need to assume that one thinks a writer is a liar, as the writer could simply have received his data from sources that were not based in fact.

True dat.

Like Luke's genealogy found in Luke 3:23-38. Luke goes from Jesus, through Joseph(???), all the way back to Adam. If Adam was a fabrication, he was fabricated long before Luke ever came onto the scene.

 

[gr8grace]

Just the fact that we are here trying to prove or disprove Jesus Christ is another marker on the side that He IS the Son of God.

If people are not trying to disprove Him, people are trying to prove Him. He's always in the mix somewhere, good or bad. but people just can't leave this Jesus alone.;)

What an impact he has had on Mankind and History. It is because it is His-Story.

 

[Deborah13]

What an impact he has had on Mankind and History. It is because it is His-Story.

Amen!

 

[CORE]

First, I just want to publicly apologize for my comments to you...I completely misunderstood your intent. Thanks for your clarification via PM.

Many do not believe Jesus was the Messiah and they have used the following verses as proof that Jesus did not fulfill the OT's requirements. What say you?

I just don't see how those verses prove that Jesus didn't fulfill the OT requirements, thus suggesting He wasn't the Christ.

Why is it necessary for these particular prophesies to have come true in order to believe that Jesus was the Christ?

Let's take Zechariah 14:9 for example:"And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one."

Why does this need to have happened, or happen right now in order for me to believe that Jesus is the Christ?

What about all the prophesies that he did fulfill?

...and if people can't believe in the Gospel and what It has to say about Jesus Christ, then you simply don't believe...what do you want me to do about that?


I dunno, I guess I just don't get what the problem is?

 

[Guest]

Jesus is God in the flesh. Confess/Believe - Mouth/Heart Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[gr8grace]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Truth, I found this interesting site page. I haven't read the whole thing myself but this article address some questions of prophecies and the problems Jews have in believing Jesus was the Messiah.
A Jew asks the question and the response looks at the prophecies that are their main problems and what is said about them in the Jewish writings themselves, such as Midrash Konen and others.

This is the personal site, of Glenn Miller. The man is an over 40 yr. Christian, BS and MS in Computer Science and BA and ThM in theology.

Hope you can find some answers here. http://christianthinktank.com/falsechrist.html
http://christianthinktank.com/christn.html (What is a Christian?)

This site is going in my favorites.

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

We are not smarter than the ancient people. We just have more knowledge. Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. Even if the Pythagorean theorem wasn't made up by a guy named Pythagoras, the concept was definitely developed by an ancient person. Even if someone like Pythagoras made up stories about a man fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and the prophecy fulfillments were perfect down to every last detail, we shouldn't assume that the stories are true.

Stories like these are suspect right out of the gate, and rightfully so. Now, when you encounter mistakes by New Testament writers, the stories become even more suspect than they were to begin with.

The christianthinktank.com listings remind me of a site a found a couple years back that I tried to use to help me back my old position that Jesus was the Messiah of prophecy. http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/Christ_of_Prophecy.html#c9

What have you been taught on how to get saved? what do you think the bible says about being saved? Are you saved and are just convinced that you gave it up?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

The contention is that the prophecies listed above a being prophecies that spoke about Jesus were simply not about him at all. According to Jews, the NT writings are not inspired of God and the NT writers took some liberties and used things in the OT writings as prove texts about Jesus being the Messiah that had nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Truth, I found this interesting site page. I haven't read the whole thing myself but this article address some questions of prophecies and the problems Jews have in believing Jesus was the Messiah.
A Jew asks the question and the response looks at the prophecies that are their main problems and what is said about them in the Jewish writings themselves, such as Midrash Konen and others.

This is the personal site, of Glenn Miller. The man is an over 40 yr. Christian, BS and MS in Computer Science and BA and ThM in theology.

Hope you can find some answers here. http://christianthinktank.com/falsechrist.html
http://christianthinktank.com/christn.html (What is a Christian?)

This site is going in my favorites.

Well, even if every single prophecy from the Old Testament was fulfilled unambiguously down to every last detail in the New Testament, it could still be easily and realistically explained that the writers of the New Testament made their stories fit with the prophecies of the Old Testament.

We are not smarter than the ancient people. We just have more knowledge. Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. Even if the Pythagorean theorem wasn't made up by a guy named Pythagoras, the concept was definitely developed by an ancient person. Even if someone like Pythagoras made up stories about a man fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and the prophecy fulfillments were perfect down to every last detail, we shouldn't assume that the stories are true.

Stories like these are suspect right out of the gate, and rightfully so. Now, when you encounter mistakes by New Testament writers, the stories become even more suspect than they were to begin with.

If the new Testament writers just made their stories fit the OT Prophecies, they would have had to lie about an insurmountable number of people involved in all those prophecies. And those lies would have come out in the open.
First of all, never forget faith. It is going to take a certain amount of faith on ALL of our parts to believe.

To make those prophecies up, they would of had to lie about some of the most powerful and prideful men in History. The roman soldiers,Herod,Pilate....these people played a direct role in some of those Prophecies. They would have called the writers out and KILLED them if they were making up stories about them. think about it, if they were just making this stuff up, they would not of had a days rest from all the people knocking on their doors for lying about them. These Prophecies directly and indirectly involved 100s of people. they wouldn't of Gotten away with writing these "stories" if they were not true.

I disagree.

Anyway, Herod wasn't coming after any Gospel writers. He was long dead.

Back to faith though, you seem to state matter of factly that," Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. " How much evidence do you have that he was a Genius? How many books or writings from antiquity do you have to make such a bold statement. For every fact from history that you have faith in, how much evidence do you require to believe it?

If you examine the entire context of what I said concerning Pythagoras . . .

Pythagoras is said to have lived from 570 BC to 495 BC. This guy was a mathematical genius. Even if the Pythagorean theorem wasn't made up by a guy named Pythagoras, the concept was definitely developed by an ancient person.

. . . you can properly conclude that I ain't religiously buying anything the history books claim about Pythagoras.

Do you believe Caesar existed and what we have in the history books about his role through his reign? For every fact that we have from Caesars reign, we have evidence from other sources and writings from antiquity to back up what we write about Caesar. For every piece of evidence that you can find about Caesar, we can find 100s,sometimes 1000s about Jesus.Just from outside sources that indirectly mention this person Jesus.Lots come from secular sources.

They put Caesar in our History books from the evidence they have found throughout History. Very few people question the truthfulness of what scholars say and write about Caesar. Because they have evidence about him and his life.

This is the evidence we have about Caesar......[...]

This is the evidence we have about Christ........[..................................................................................................................................................................................................................]

Caesar Who? Julius Caesar? First off, I will easily discard any supernatural claims about Julius Caesar, and I'm sure that there have been some over the years.

Your Caesar/Christ ratio of evidence is way off, if you're talking about Julius Caesar.

And that is just books of antiquity and writings of antiquity. Thats not counting recent and past archaeological finds that prove the historical accuracy of the OT/NT Also.

Historical accuracy of the Old Testament?

I disagree.

 

[Guest]

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

What's your motive I'd ask, VSC.? :naughty

 

[VirginShallConceive]

First of all, never forget faith. It is going to take a certain amount of faith on ALL of our parts to believe.

You're absolutely right about that.

And, the less evidence you have, the more faith you're gonna need.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that it could be one very realistic explanation for the writers' motives.

What's your motive I'd ask, VSC.? :naughty

My motive?

Honest discussion.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=92792]VirginShallConceive[/MENTION] Just be aware of what path you're trekking, you know. Peace be with you.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Julius Caesar

I find it amazing how only 4 people wrote history about Caesar but 42 about Jesus.

Another thing that's kinda neat is how Caesar helped pave the way for the message of Jesus to reach you, even though Caesar never knew he was doing just that.

 

[Vaccine]

Hello Truth over tradition! I thought I'd try add what I can to the discussion. What do Jews say to Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? To me Isaiah 53 is the strongest case Jesus was the messiah.


I think gr8grace listed all the prophecies and made an excellent point about three options : either Jesus was a liar, lunatic, or lord.
All this talk about new testament writers making the stories "fit". Some of the OT dead sea scrolls predate Jesus. Some of the NT was written within 30 years of Jesus crucifixion. Altering the story to "fit" before some 25000 individual documents were written would be quite the task. But I think it takes a lot of faith to believe they could alter the Roman history to fit. Most of the prophecies concerning Jesus birth and death can be confirmed by Roman historians.

 

[reba]

For sure Vac and with out a computer

 

[CORE]

What do Jews say to Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? To me Isaiah 53 is the strongest case Jesus was the messiah.

I presented that question in another forum a couple of years ago...the only answer I got was from a secular Jew who basically said that Isaiah was a nut and that they reject his prophecy. All the others refused to answer and none even refuted the notion about Isaiah being a nut.

That's about all I got...not really shocking if you're familiar with the following verses:

Jeremiah 2:30
"In vain I punished your people; they did not respond to correction. Your sword has devoured your prophets like a ravenous lion.

Nehemiah 9:26
“But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies

2 Chronicles 36:16
But they mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

2 Chronicles 24:21
But they plotted against him, and by order of the king they stoned him to death in the courtyard of the LORD's temple.

Nehemiah 9:30
For many years you were patient with them. By your Spirit you warned them through your prophets. Yet they paid no attention, so you gave them into the hands of the neighboring peoples.

Acts 7:52
"Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered"

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"


...and now we have a thread talking about how some Jews reject Jesus as the Christ. WOW! Who'da thunk it, right?

Nothing new to see hear folks...move along.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hello Truth over tradition! I thought I'd try add what I can to the discussion. What do Jews say to Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? To me Isaiah 53 is the strongest case Jesus was the messiah.


I think gr8grace listed all the prophecies and made an excellent point about three options : either Jesus was a liar, lunatic, or lord.

There's also a fourth option, [edited by staff]

Babe Ruth was a real, live baseball player. The existence of Babe Ruth is well-documented. There are also myths about Babe Ruth. Concerning the myths, we have your three options: Babe Ruth was either a liar, lunatic, or the myths are absolutely true.

Or . . . other people created the myths about Babe Ruth, making Babe Ruth neither a liar or lunatic, nor making the myths true.

All this talk about new testament writers making the stories "fit". Some of the OT dead sea scrolls predate Jesus. Some of the NT was written within 30 years of Jesus crucifixion. Altering the story to "fit" before some 25000 individual documents were written would be quite the task.

No one is saying that the New Testament writers changed the Old Testament.

You, Vaccine, can invent 3 prophecies about any subject, and type them.

Then, I can type out a short story of my own invention in which my main character fulfills all three of your prophecies. I can do all this without changing one character of your typed message! Imagine that!

But I think it takes a lot of faith to believe they could alter the Roman history to fit. Most of the prophecies concerning Jesus birth and death can be confirmed by Roman historians.

Well, I'm here to tell you that I am not operating on faith when it comes to questioning claims that don't fit the facts.

 

[WIP]

I would like to remind everyone about the following from our ToS. It is permissible to offer thoughts that challenge and promote apologetic discussion but I would advise caution as we will not allow active promotion of non-Christian views or efforts to undermine or mock our faith. This discussion has been precariously teatering on the edge.

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith

2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussion of these doctrines are is fine, as long as the beliefs foreign to Christianity (as defined above) are not actively promoted or held in balance with orthodox Christianity. This includes Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine where discussion is limited to and only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.

 

[Vaccine]

What do Jews say to Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? To me Isaiah 53 is the strongest case Jesus was the messiah.

I presented that question in another forum a couple of years ago...the only answer I got was from a secular Jew who basically said that Isaiah was a nut and that they reject his prophecy. All the others refused to answer and none even refuted the notion about Isaiah being a nut.

That's about all I got...not really shocking if you're familiar with the following verses:

Jeremiah 2:30
"In vain I punished your people; they did not respond to correction. Your sword has devoured your prophets like a ravenous lion.

Nehemiah 9:26
“But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies

2 Chronicles 36:16
But they mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

2 Chronicles 24:21
But they plotted against him, and by order of the king they stoned him to death in the courtyard of the LORD's temple.

Nehemiah 9:30
For many years you were patient with them. By your Spirit you warned them through your prophets. Yet they paid no attention, so you gave them into the hands of the neighboring peoples.

Acts 7:52
"Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered"

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"


...and now we have a thread talking about how some Jews reject Jesus as the Christ. WOW! Who'da thunk it, right?

Nothing new to see hear folks...move along.

Excellent points! I wasn't familiar with many of those.
As to the verses in the OP, it seems to me some verses should carry more weight than others. To me, Isaiah 53 would be like meat, whereas the verses they cite for not believing Jesus is the messiah, is like milk. I really don't know the bible well enough to have a direct answer for those specific verses. My answer would have to rest on the volume and weight of other verses showing Jesus is the messiah.

This is just my own opinion, but another proof Jesus was messaih/God is Mat 5:18/28
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away," The idea heaven and earth were eternal go back to Descartes. Most philosophers and scientists believed in an infinite universe right up until scientists like Hubble/Lemaitre/Einstein. Entropy or the second law of thermodynamics wasn't known about back then, yet, there Jesus is asserting earth is going to pass away. To me, asserting something which must have seemed absurd to people back then is not the best way to win friends or influence people. I think Matt 5:28 wouldn't have helped either "but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" I'm a guy and that always made me uncomfortable so I could just see the men lining up to follow the guy who said that and heaven and earth will pass away.
@VirginShallConceive True, I can imagine writing some prophecies and having you write a story to fulfill them. But I can't imagine getting an enemy of mine or a disinterested 3rd party to verify parts of it as well. I don't want to sidetrack the thread and see a warning has been issued but I wonder if I would be allowed to start another thread to discuss books like Zealot or Mithraism or other theories.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Hello Truth over tradition! I thought I'd try add what I can to the discussion. What do Jews say to Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22?

Isaiah 53 seems to make a solid case as it fits the gospel narrative about what hapen to Jesus to a tee. From discussions I've had what I have run into most is that the Jesus deniers claim that the suffering servant of the greater context of Isaiah 53 reveals that it is in fact representative of the nation of Israel and is in no way Messianic.
They also claim that Psalm 22 is not in any way Messianic and that it is simply David poetically recanting his fears and trust in God related to his persecution by either Saul or Absalom.

The main issue I have run into is that they claim that the NT writers dishonestly use OT that was not in any way Messianic as proof texts for the Messiahship of Jesus by lifting them from their original contexts and giving them meaning that was not based on that of the inspired OT writers. They place the burden of proof on the NT believer to establish that the NT writings have fact based merit. Unlike the Islamists I have spoken to, these Jews do not even believe Jesus was a good teacher and a prophet. They think his story was either an amalgomation of would be Christs that lived and died in the early part of the 1st century whose stories became intertwined and a legend of sorts or that he was a false prophet that didn't fulfill the real Messianic prophecies that are mentioned in the OT. They claim that all of the things the Messiah was prophesied to do and accomplished Jesus failed to do and Jesus' followers know this so they errantly claim that he will come again to do the things he failed at back in the first century. The issue they have with the "come again" logic is that "their" prophesied Messiah was not ever spoken of as needing to come again. The challenge I faced was that of being able to prove them wrong by relying on the inspired scriptures (the OT) without using my "largely fabricated NT to confirm things that weren't even Messianic."

Not an easy task so I created this thread a couple years back to solicit help in this tall task and in proving that Jesus is in fact the Christ.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What have you been taught on how to get saved?

- Hear the gospel of Christ.
- Believe the gospel.
- Repent from my ways and resolve to turn to follow Jesus
- Confess publically my faith in Jesus being the Son of God
- Get baptised into Christ
- Live faithfully as a Christian

what do you think the bible says about being saved?

I believe the Bible says much on the subject. To sum it up shortly, I believe that Jesus speaks of salvation from the wages of sin being realized through Him. All those that willingly submit their hearts and lives to Jesus will have access to the "Tree of Life" and "rivers of life" in the resurrection.

Are you saved and are just convinced that you gave it up?

My understanding of when I was or will be saved had changed while my faith was at its strongest point. I held to the belief that my hope was a resurrection to age lasting life under the reign of King Jesus and His saints. I fully believed that I would be rewarded witht he gift of "eternal" life due to my willingness to give my heart to Christ.
I didn't give up being saved as I still hold to the values of righteousness my faith instilled in me, but although my 'walk' is the same, my trust in the reward being there for faith no longer exists. I didn't and do not want to give up on the hope of eternal life as promised by the Christ, but I am lacking enough evidence to convince me that holding on to my hope is warranted.

I'm seeking evidence that can renew my hope.